Bruce Jenner's Début as "Caitlyn"

[Jeanne_S]

Billie Jean King won that match, not Bobby Riggs. However, he was 55 at the time.

Wrong female I asked my husband I guess it was Margaret Court,in her thirties at the time,Bobby Riggs,in his sixties beat her.She was a top ranked player.

 

[meltzerboy]

Wrong female I asked my husband I guess it was Margaret Court,in her thirties at the time,Bobby Riggs,in his sixties beat her.She was a top ranked player.

The Court-Riggs match took place a few months before the King-Riggs match, and only because Billie Jean King at first refused to play. So Bobby Riggs was 55 during that match as well, while Court was 30. Nonetheless, he did win.

Now what was the original topic?

 

[pete_29]

Maybe Jenner thinks that Original Sin exists and it had negative ramifications for creation

All of the transgender people I know who have had surgery, and I do know a bunch, say that

Transgender people aren’t new, they have been documented for thousands of years in India.

People aren’t born homicidal, some are however born male and others female.

Indubitably.

Which do you think God is more likely to approve of, suicide or transitioning?

Neither, since those aren’t the only choices available.

 

[Jeanne_S]

The Court-Riggs match took place a few months before the King-Riggs match, and only because Billie Jean King at first refused to play. So Bobby Riggs was 55 during that match as well, while Court was 30. Nonetheless, he did win.

Now what was the original topic?

My post was in response to another post re men are just naturally stronger then women.
I didn’t read all the prior posts,assume it must have a connection to this thread:shrug:

 

[Cider]

That’s an assumption on you’re part, I’ve never said that women who don’t have children are less than women who did, though it would be easy for me to assume that you think women who did choose motherhood are lesser. In any case, there are objective biological differences between men and women that can’t be changed through cosmetic surgery. Pretending those objective differences are less relevant than subjective feelings is unserious.

For the record, I’m a woman and mother and I wasn’t offended by what you posted. I understood your point regarding the reality that make men and women different.

 

[Dawnia]

**

I think the point was men by nature are physically stronger than women.A good example is Billie Jean King,in her thirties going up against Bobby Riggs a much older male opponent.He beat her handily.

I understood the point. I just found it funny. (I have no idea who Billie Jean King nor Bobby Riggs are. )

 

[Jeanne_S]

I understood the point. I just found it funny. (I have no idea who Billie Jean King nor Bobby Riggs are. )

You must be a youngster…

 

[estesbob]

You must be a youngster…

They played in the astrodome. Bobby Riggs got an endorsement from sugar daddies candy and was carried into the arena on the litter dressed like royalty . King kicked his butt in straight sets

 

[rae317]

Me dressing up as Napoleon doesn’t make me Napoleon. Even if I went so far as to have myself surgically reduced in height, I still wouldn’t be him.

No, you really can’t. Being a woman and/or a mother involves objective biological differences that go beyond a preference for playing with dolls as a child rather than toy guns.

How many people believe they are Napoleon?
How many people experience trannsexualism and how long has that been going on?

Not the same things. And these comparison do get very old.

I never played with dolls. I played with guns.

 

[ucfengr]

How many people believe they are Napoleon?
How many people experience trannsexualism and how long has that been going on?

Not the same things. And these comparison do get very old.

I never played with dolls. I played with guns.

A very small amount of people suffer from gender identity disorder. It’s probably not statistically different from people that suffer from delusions of grandeur. And I’m not seeing how a delusion of grandeur is meaningfully different from a delusion of gendeur. Both are delusions.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I wonder if Bruce (or Caitlyn) will have his/her voice corrected. It sounds super-male to me.

 

[Cherry5]

A very small amount of people suffer from gender identity disorder. It’s probably not statistically different from people that suffer from delusions of grandeur. And I’m not seeing how a delusion of grandeur is meaningfully different from a delusion of gendeur. Both are delusions.

These are two completely different conditions. You are obviously are not a psychiatrist. I have not come across any mainstream psychiatrist or psychologist that believes that transgender people typically are delusional.
Your comment is uncharitable and baseless.

 

[Thomas_White]

I guess I need to understand this better. Bruce Jenner, a man, decides that he is really a woman. So he changes his name to Caitlan and dons womens’ clothing. Is that it? Is that really what all this uproar is about?

 

[Monkey1976]

These are two completely different conditions. You are obviously are not a psychiatrist. I have not come across any mainstream psychiatrist or psychologist that believes that transgender people typically are delusional.
Your comment is uncharitable and baseless.

Exactly what is the difference? Both are denials of physical reality. Both involve insistence on an identity that cannot be realized, only simulated. Yet one is somehow valid and “true”, while the other is cause for incarceration and medication.

For those men insisting that they’re “really” women - regardless of surgical modification - in 1000 years, your bones will still be cataloged as being those of a man.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Women do not have the upper body strength to compete with men on the PGA tour where length off the tee and on many second shots is critical. Men have muscles in their upper bodies that women simply do not have, and as a result of this physiological difference women just cannot compete equally with men in golf. This is not Rocket Science, and it is true in many sports as well as in other areas, such as in military service. But the trend has nevertheless been to deny this reality.

Would it have been fair to let the tremendous athlete that was Bruce Jenner compete in women’s sports? Where is the young female QB who would have liked to have seen the twenty-year old Bruce Jenner heading full stream toward her?

Jenner would have to be on HRT and that’d reduce her strength down to female range within a couple years.

As I just said in another thread, DNA DOESN’T LIE. It changes with cancer, over exposure to radiation, perhaps old age but your DNA doesn’t flip from one sex to another. God in his Wisdom created each of us specially & perfectly who He wanted us to be!

Sad that Bruce Jenner is in obvious emotional chaos & being wildly exploited by the media (though it pays handsomely I’m sure), step father of beautiful children in the world’s eye, recently divorced & has the Malibu car wreck litigation forthcoming. It’s quite a stew!

Timing of all this is interesting :juggle:

I would prefer not to see this shoved in my face; it is like a house a’fire & hard to avoid. I prefer to remember Mr. Jenner as the gifted, brilliant athlete I saw @ the Olympic Games in Montreal.

Have you ever heard of this one thing called Original Sin and that it has damaged us both spiritually and physically?

Maybe if you weren’t fixated on the ability to become pregnant, you might have not missed my point.

Why are women mostly defined in relation to reproduction and men rarely are?

Food for thought: a Jesuit once told me: Men give birth spiritually & Women give birth physically.

Any theological support for that?

Unless you’re claiming that trans-women are celibate for the Kingdom of God and are therefore superior to women who have children, I’m not seeing the relevance.

Reproduction is not the sine qua non of womanhood.

Seriously? Popes have said PLENTY on this topic. I’ve posted MANY quotes on this very thread from Pope Benedict and Pope Francis. Pope JP II used very strong statements about it. They have called it: “a new sin”, “against God the Creator”, “destruction of the very essence of the human creature”, “the Maker is denied”, “man too is stripped of his dignity”, “profound falsehood”, “demonic”, “against the moral law”. Google it yourself.

I have read those and for the most part they are clearly labeling the radical feminist belief that there are no differences between men and women as dangerous and destructive.

Giving up motherhood to focus on a life of service to God is considered a sacrifice. That’s why it is morally significant. Giving up motherhood so you can take better vacations or focus on your career isn’t. a sacrifice, so it’s not morally significant. A trans-woman is no more capable of giving up motherhood than any other man, so it’s also not morally significant. The sacrifice is what gives it meaning. Also, SRS doesn’t typically include a vow of celibacy, so I’m having a problem seeing the relevance at all.

Men and transwomen can both still forsake parenthood for the Kingdom of God.

Plenty of ciswomen cannot have children and your words demean them.

Neither, since those aren’t the only choices available.

Right, for many who don’t transition deaths due to substance abuse and early deaths resulting from stress are also common.

Exactly what is the difference? Both are denials of physical reality. Both involve insistence on an identity that cannot be realized, only simulated. Yet one is somehow valid and “true”, while the other is cause for incarceration and medication.

For those men insisting that they’re “really” women - regardless of surgical modification - in 1000 years, your bones will still be cataloged as being those of a man.

The difference is transgender people are quite aware physically of what they are and what they are not.

 

[Monkey1976]

The difference is transgender people are quite aware physically of what they are and what they are not.

If one is aware of a physical reality and still chooses to insist it is wrong, how is that not delusional? There are several people who firmly believe that they are “supposed to be” disabled, yet have healthy, fully-functional bodies. Is the best treatment to start lopping off their limbs and severing their spines in order to approach what they believe they should be? If not, then why do we destroy healthy, fully-functioning bodies to make one sex look like the other?

There are other people who firmly believe that they are animals - even dragons - “cursed” to live in a human body. They know they are physically human, and they are able to function as such. Should they be given surgeries to implant whiskers, sharpen their teeth, and whatever else would make them look as much like their “real identity” as possible? If not, why do we insist that it is a good thing to mutilate a man so that he simulates the appearance of a woman?

If an African-American woman believed that she was really Asian “on the inside”, would it be best for her health to undergo skin bleaching, surgeries to introduce an epicanthic fold, etc? If not, why do we push surgery on a woman who believes she is really a man “on the inside”?

Brains are not clearly sexed, and there is no way to tell any difference between them without dissection. There is significant overlap between the brains of men and those of women, and all of the differences are in areas which are known to be plastic - able to change in response to behavior or environment. If a man acts like a woman for an extended period of time, his brain will lean more toward the normal range of a woman’s brain, and vice versa. Very little of the brain’s “wiring” is fixed from the time of formation.

We’re also not talking about those unfortunate individuals who actually do have intersexed conditions or ambiguous genitalia. We are talking about men and women who are physically healthy, fully functioning - even to the point of fathering or bearing children - and obviously male or female.

Exactly what is different about feeling that physical reality is wrong regarding one’s sex as opposed to one’s race or disability?

 

[Thorolfr]

Here’s something interesting from yesterday’s New York Times:

Sam Martin was browsing in a Boston record store 23 years ago when an unusual photography book caught his eye. Mr. Martin flipped through its pages, which featured portraits and interviews with women who had become men, and started to cry.

“I thought, ‘Oh, my God, I’m not the only one,’ ” said Mr. Martin, 43, who started transitioning to male from female after he bought the book. “When I was growing up, I never saw people like me in movies or books.”

Mr. Martin is now on a mission to change that. He belongs to a small group of emerging authors who are writing children’s literature that centers on transgender characters, hoping to fill the void they felt as young readers. His debut work of fiction — a semi-autobiographical story about a transgender teenage boy who falls in love with an older boy on the beach in Cape Cod — will be published in a collection this month by Duet, a new young adult publisher that specializes in lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and queer fiction.

“My goal was to write stories that would have helped me feel less alone at that age,” said Mr. Martin, who works as a Starbucks barista in Washington and writes at night.

nytimes.com/2015/06/07/business/media/transgender-childrens-books-fill-a-void-and-break-a-taboo.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=second-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0

 

[ucfengr]

Men and transwomen can both still forsake parenthood for the Kingdom of God.

Plenty of ciswomen cannot have children and your words demean them.

Spare me the feigned outrage. Pointing out that there are objective biological realities that distinguish men from women isn’t demeaning anybody, other than, I suppose, people who object to reality.

How the heck is a cis-woman different from what we used to just call a woman?

 

[gracepoole]

Spare me the feigned outrage.

Questioning the motives of other CAF posters is hardly becoming. You really have no idea what outrage is feigned or not. I’ve seen plenty of comments in this thread that legitimately warrant plenty of outrage.

 

[yosupman]

Bruce Jenner is on his way to hell. End of debate.