Bruce Jenner's Début as "Caitlyn"

[jtauke]

People aren’t born homicidal, some are however born male and others female.

Indubitably.

I take issue with this statement. Psychopaths and Sociopaths can indeed be born with a brain chemistry that makes them more predisposed to commit murder. Their brains aren’t wired correctly in feel empathy and compassion.

You’re basically asserting that it’s learned behavior, which I don’t believe for second.

You think a good Catholic upbringing would have stopped Manson or Bundy? No

 

[DeniseNY]

Bruce Jenner is on his way to hell. End of debate.

You are not qualified to make this determination. None of us are.

 

[ucfengr]

Questioning the motives of other CAF posters is hardly becoming. You really have no idea what outrage is feigned or not. I’ve seen plenty of comments in this thread that legitimately warrant plenty of outrage.

Pish-posh. If you questioning people’s motives really bothers you, I suggest you head over to one of the numerous global warming threads. Plenty of motive questioning there for you to call out.

Reproduction is not the sine qua non of womanhood.

The ability to have children and nurse them is an objective biological difference between women and men. Denying that reality is irrational. That some small number of women have some injury or disease that renders them unable to carry children is irrelevant to the discussion, as is the fact that some women choose a celibate life.

 

[meltzerboy]

I take issue with this statement. Psychopaths and Sociopaths can indeed be born with a brain chemistry that makes them more predisposed to commit murder. Their brains aren’t wired correctly in feel empathy and compassion.

You’re basically asserting that it’s learned behavior, which I don’t believe for second.

You think a good Catholic upbringing would have stopped Manson or Bundy? No

The so-called “bad seed” theory of extreme forms of psychopathy, the kind found in serial killers, was supplanted by a more environmental theory. However, some psychologists have returned to the biological viewpoint. Maybe there is some kind of nature and nurture interaction, as is often the case. It should also be noted that the terms “psychopath” and “sociopath” have become outdated in abnormal psychology since clinical psychologists know that the vast majority of so-called psychopaths do NOT behave in the way serial killers do.

A different point: your last statement somewhat calls into question the notion of free will, does it not? I do not necessarily disagree with it, however.

 

[qui_est_ce]

If one is aware of a physical reality and still chooses to insist it is wrong, how is that not delusional? There are several people who firmly believe that they are “supposed to be” disabled, yet have healthy, fully-functional bodies. Is the best treatment to start lopping off their limbs and severing their spines in order to approach what they believe they should be? If not, then why do we destroy healthy, fully-functioning bodies to make one sex look like the other?

There are other people who firmly believe that they are animals - even dragons - “cursed” to live in a human body. They know they are physically human, and they are able to function as such. Should they be given surgeries to implant whiskers, sharpen their teeth, and whatever else would make them look as much like their “real identity” as possible? If not, why do we insist that it is a good thing to mutilate a man so that he simulates the appearance of a woman?

If an African-American woman believed that she was really Asian “on the inside”, would it be best for her health to undergo skin bleaching, surgeries to introduce an epicanthic fold, etc? If not, why do we push surgery on a woman who believes she is really a man “on the inside”?

Brains are not clearly sexed, and there is no way to tell any difference between them without dissection. There is significant overlap between the brains of men and those of women, and all of the differences are in areas which are known to be plastic - able to change in response to behavior or environment. If a man acts like a woman for an extended period of time, his brain will lean more toward the normal range of a woman’s brain, and vice versa. Very little of the brain’s “wiring” is fixed from the time of formation.

We’re also not talking about those unfortunate individuals who actually do have intersexed conditions or ambiguous genitalia. We are talking about men and women who are physically healthy, fully functioning - even to the point of fathering or bearing children - and obviously male or female.

Exactly what is different about feeling that physical reality is wrong regarding one’s sex as opposed to one’s race or disability?

 

[OraLabora]

Exactly what is different about feeling that physical reality is wrong regarding one’s sex as opposed to one’s race or disability?

“Delusional” may turn out to have an organic basis such as messed-up brain chemistry, which has been more or less proven for other mental disorders such as depression and bipolar disorder.

If such a person is organically ill (after all the brain is an organ and can have diseases like any other organ), then the charitable thing to do is, well, be charitable to the person suffering. If it’s not yet proven that it’s organic, the charitable thing to do is as we do with gays: treat them with compassion and with absence of discrimination. And if they’ve been sold a bill of goods that mutilation is the best treatment and have been mutilated, again the charitable thing to do is be compassionate towards the sufferer. In that case the onus of immoral action is as much if not more on the person proposing the treatment. When one consults a health professional, one places a certain degree of trust in them, so mortal culpability for the grave sin may rest more on the health professional than the sufferer.

The bottom line on all this is that it is perhaps the health professionals who are barking up the wrong tree trying to find a “cure” or treatment for this condition. The research should perhaps be more aligned towards seeking medication to temper the effects of this illness and help the sufferer live with his or her God-given body. Wether until then gender surgery is the “best” treatment is certainly open do debate.

And the bottom line is that as Catholics, as always, we are called to treat others with compassion and charity, especially those who are suffering, even if we disagree with the road they took.

It is that compassion, and not condemnation, that may bring the sufferer back to God.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

Unless you’re claiming that trans-women are celibate for the Kingdom of God and are therefore superior to women who have children, I’m not seeing the relevance.

I likewise do not see the relevance.

As for women and men, well and good for those who truly choose the consecrated life of celibacy, like those who join Opus Dei to be numeraries (a classmate of mine in college, who is attractive and graduated as magna cum laude, with high marriage prospects, joined said prelature and become a numerary not long after graduation), or entering a religious order. Virginity or celibacy is an exquisite offering that must be very pleasing to God. However, I fail to see a celibate person’s need to insist that the choice of celibacy ranks higher than another’s choice for marriage and parenthood as vocation. This is like the apostle asking or vying for the seat next to Jesus in heaven. Would this be truly about responding to a calling for the kingdom of God, or really for honor, the wish for greater recognition? What about a person rejecting marriage outright, on account of not being able to handle any physical intimacy because of a bad experience? Would God be pleased with such an offering?

There are also individuals who would rather marry but do not or never find for a reason or another a suitable marriage partner, people who lose their spouses too early and remain partnerless, a single status they did or do not choose. Although they may later accept such situation with grace, making the best of single life, if they can help or improve the prospect of getting married, they would choose marriage, of being partnered with someone.

This brings to mind Pope Benedict’s efforts in getting to the root of clergy sex scandal and to institute systematic clean up in Church ranks. This preceded the disqualification of candidates with deep seated homosexual tendencies as candidates to priesthood. Such men do not see themselves ever getting married to women; hence, they were not really giving up a worldly good or making the sacrifice of never taking a wife and having a family. So they tended to hide in or escape to a “vocation” in the priesthood, convincing themselves and/or those in hierarchy in charge of priest formation that they were answering a high calling to said vocation in service for the kingdom of God.

Pardon the digression. Yielding now to the topic of Bruce’s debut as Caitlyn and transgender phenomenon.
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[InSearchofGrace]

Giving up motherhood to focus on a life of service to God is considered a sacrifice. That’s why it is morally significant. Giving up motherhood so you can take better vacations or focus on your career isn’t. a sacrifice, so it’s not morally significant. A trans-woman is no more capable of giving up motherhood than any other man, so it’s also not morally significant. The sacrifice is what gives it meaning. Also, SRS doesn’t typically include a vow of celibacy, so I’m having a problem seeing the relevance at all.

Just clarifying the sentence I bolded in your post. MtF transitioning is not associated with celibacy. Sexual behavior of pre-SRS MtF transsexuals put them more at health risk, in fact, secondary perhaps to not having the same financial freedom as Bruce Jenner.

From the health perspective, if recent meta-analysis studies of transgender sexual practices are any indication, the picture is grim. Said studies indicate that the prevalence of HIV/STIs and HIV-related risk behaviors is high among transgender women in the U.S. and elsewhere. CDC reported that 27.7% of transgender women tested positive for HIV infection (4 studies), but when testing was not part of the study, only 11.8% of transgender women self-reported having HIV (18 studies). In one study, 73% of the transgender women who tested HIV-positive were unaware of their status. A review of studies of HIV infection in countries with data available for transgender people estimated that HIV prevalence for transgender women was nearly 50 times as high as for other adults of reproductive age.

My view is the publicity Bruce “Caitlyn” Jenner sought is doing a great disservice to the transgender population. The average trans woman is not living a life of glamour. Without the make up, satin lingerie, and klieg lights, I doubt Caitlyn is or would be, either.
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[Thorolfr]

Such men do not see themselves ever getting married to women; hence, they were not really giving up a worldly good or making the sacrifice of never taking a wife and having a family. So they tended to hide in or escape to a “vocation” in the priesthood, convincing themselves and/or those in hierarchy in charge of priest formation that they were answering a high calling to said vocation in service for the kingdom of God.

So are you saying that celibacy is more of a sacrifice for a heterosexual man? Don’t you think that being celibate is just as difficult for someone with same-sex attraction and that such a person is also answering a high calling?

 

[Thomas_White]

This is a process that has yet to play out, I think. Bruce Jenner is no more a woman than any other male, but there are those who would believe otherwise. This will present a real challenge to the very concept of “woman”, and there are those who would prefer the concept of “woman” disappear from our vocabulary. This is political correctness run amok, and I predict there will be a backlash from many women who in some quarters are already being defined as “birth-women”–as opposed to a male who thinks or believe he/she is a woman. The descriptive term thus becomes “person”.

But I think many women who were born women, including many feminists, are not going to appreciate having womanhood defined by a biological male who can know nothing of the real experience.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I haven’t read all the posts in the thread, so maybe this is redundant.

But has it occurred to anyone else that perhaps we’re being had here? To my knowledge, Jenner has not completed his um, surgeries, so, except for a detail or two, he could go back to being Bruce Jenner without a lot of trouble. As to his appearance, I think just about any drag queen could do as well or better, and many do while remaining intact males.

Are we being set up for an endless gender soap opera, with millions to be made by the star of the show?

 

[Ridgerunner]

The so-called “bad seed” theory of extreme forms of psychopathy, the kind found in serial killers, was supplanted by a more environmental theory. However, some psychologists have returned to the biological viewpoint. Maybe there is some kind of nature and nurture interaction, as is often the case. It should also be noted that the terms “psychopath” and “sociopath” have become outdated in abnormal psychology since clinical psychologists know that the vast majority of so-called psychopaths do NOT behave in the way serial killers do.

A different point: your last statement somewhat calls into question the notion of free will, does it not? I do not necessarily disagree with it, however.

I once had an interesting discussion with a psychiatrist about that. Apparently there are a great number of “socialized psychopaths”. Just because a person lacks empathy and has no internal regard for the rules, he/she can learn the rules “by rote”, just as I could memorize enough about cardiology to pass for a cardiologist with most people.

And they don’t lack intention, either. One can intend to be a serial killer or perhaps a computer software designer, and perhaps accomplish either one, depending on one’s talent level and determination.

As a moral issue, then, what are we to make of that? Can there be saints who were psychopaths but quelled their inner demons because they learned to do so and intended to obey the commandments of a God they never understood very well but believed could severely punish them if they did not?

Interesting to think about.

 

[sallybutler]

I haven’t read all the posts in the thread, so maybe this is redundant.

But has it occurred to anyone else that perhaps we’re being had here? To my knowledge, Jenner has not completed his um, surgeries, so, except for a detail or two, he could go back to being Bruce Jenner without a lot of trouble. As to his appearance, I think just about any drag queen could do as well or better, and many do while remaining intact males.

Are we being set up for an endless gender soap opera, with millions to be made by the star of the show?

Sounds like another “reality” show in the making.

 

[meltzerboy]

I haven’t read all the posts in the thread, so maybe this is redundant.

But has it occurred to anyone else that perhaps we’re being had here? To my knowledge, Jenner has not completed his um, surgeries, so, except for a detail or two, he could go back to being Bruce Jenner without a lot of trouble. As to his appearance, I think just about any drag queen could do as well or better, and many do while remaining intact males.

Are we being set up for an endless gender soap opera, with millions to be made by the star of the show?

It’s somewhat unlikely but still a possibility, I think. “Keeping Up with the Kardashians” may have just gone up a notch, or down, depending on your perspective.

 

[Jeanne_S]

I haven’t read all the posts in the thread, so maybe this is redundant.

But has it occurred to anyone else that perhaps we’re being had here? To my knowledge, Jenner has not completed his um, surgeries, so, except for a detail or two, he could go back to being Bruce Jenner without a lot of trouble. As to his appearance, I think just about any drag queen could do as well or better, and many do while remaining intact males.

Are we being set up for an endless gender soap opera, with millions to be made by the star of the show?

If nothing else,someone n the media caught wind of his disorder,made him an offer he couldn’t refuse,and now is he not only keeping up with the Kardasians’,he is actually stealing their thunder.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I haven’t read all the posts in the thread, so maybe this is redundant.

But has it occurred to anyone else that perhaps we’re being had here? To my knowledge, Jenner has not completed his um, surgeries, so, except for a detail or two, he could go back to being Bruce Jenner without a lot of trouble. As to his appearance, I think just about any drag queen could do as well or better, and many do while remaining intact males.

Are we being set up for an endless gender soap opera, with millions to be made by the star of the show?

Yes this is it in a nutshell. How much money have the Kardashians made with their evil sex ploys? People need to quit feeding into this. Bruce will always be Bruce, no matter how much the media overplays his hand. HIs voice is totally a male voice, he has male muscles, male genitalia, male everything, except his drag queen lips and hair. We really need to quit looking at this nonsense!!

 

[Cherry5]

Exactly what is the difference? Both are denials of physical reality. Both involve insistence on an identity that cannot be realized, only simulated. Yet one is somehow valid and “true”, while the other is cause for incarceration and medication.

For those men insisting that they’re “really” women - regardless of surgical modification - in 1000 years, your bones will still be cataloged as being those of a man.

—-> Most transgender individuals do not believe that their genotypic sex is different from what it actually is. Thus, being transgender is usually not associated with the psychotic symptom such as paranoid delusions or delusions of grandeur. Having a firm belief that you are Napoleon is obviously a psychotic delusion of grandeur.

—-> According to NHS (2012), a psychosis is often associated with thought disturbances, manifesting as strange shifts in speech content, sudden pauses or arbitrary speech content. There is no evidence that these symptoms are associated with being transgender.

—-> Transgender individuals generally do not experience hallucinations of smell, touch or sound and so on but these kinds of hallucinations are common in individuals with psychosis (NHS, 2012).

—-> Psychiatric conditions that involve psychotic delusions tend to respond to anti-psychotics, whereas anti-psychotics are not listed as a credible, evidence-based treatment for transgender individuals diagnosed with gender identity disorder or gender dysphoria (World Professional Association for Transgender Health, 2011).

Here is some more extensive reading , transascity.org/the-transgender-brain/

 

[JimG]

“On the other hand, if sexual identity isn’t reducible to biology, it’s also not detachable from the body. You are your body, and if that body is male then so are you.”
How to preach about Bruce Jenner

 

[Jeanne_S]

“On the other hand, if sexual identity isn’t reducible to biology, it’s also not detachable from the body. You are your body, and if that body is male then so are you.”
How to preach about Bruce Jenner

This attached article,is the most reasonable explaination I have read up to this point re BJ and those with similar issues.

 

[Cherry5]

This attached article,is the most reasonable explaination I have read up to this point re BJ and those with similar issues.

I disagree, this is out dated information, the Clarke Institute of Toronto now referred to CAMH. Has recognized the error in its treatment of this condition, they no more practice conversion therapy. autogynephilia is not relevant since the process of transitioning with hormones greatly reduces the libido and hence a contradiction to going down that route for autogynephiliac reasons.