Bruce Jenner's Début as "Caitlyn"

[estesbob]

Are you saying that (s)he is putting his mortal sin in danger because of this “sex change”? People feel the way they feel. If he feels he’s a woman and you truly knew him and loved him you could say his thinking is confused because of sin. But so are we all. Here in the church too. We only have the luxury of guidance by the Holy Spirit. Other than that who are we? I don’t condemn people for feelings. Feeling aren’t good or bad. They just are you don’t trust them or pay attention to them.

Bill

That’s exactly what I’m saying. Unless one believes in universalism then we must accept the fact that actions have consequences are acting on your feelings is not a get out of jail free card

 

[estesbob]

The language one uses makes a difference. Mutilation has the connotation, if not the denotation, of an inflicted injury which is violent in nature. Surgery is not considered violent in nature.

if cutting off one’s penis is not mutilation than the word has no meaning

 

[meltzerboy]

if cutting off one’s penis is not mutilation than the word has no meaning

If this were done by the person himself, then I would call it mutilation (or self-mutilation); but not when a surgeon performs an operation. Otherwise, it becomes essentially a pejorative term. Would you call breast removal for preventing the occurrence of hereditary cancer mutilation? This kind of surgery is no guarantee against cancer and does not actually treat a disease.

 

[billcu1]

If this were done by the person himself, then I would call it mutilation (or self-mutilation); but not when a surgeon performs an operation. Otherwise, it becomes essentially a pejorative term. Would you call breast removal for preventing the occurrence of hereditary cancer mutilation? This kind of surgery is no guarantee against cancer and does not actually treat a disease.

Yes I would myself. Genetics is not that reliable. Other things can override them. Proper diet. So on.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

The suicide rate after transitioning and SRS drops. Transitioning and SRS don’t magically make everything better, they still have to deal with all the baggage they have…

There is a suicide contagion phenomenon that makes the baseline suicide rate pre-transitioning and SRS in the transgender population questionable, and at east difficult to establish.

Blanchard’s ideas have been shown to be absurd.

Absurd according to whom and on what basis? Blanchard’s autogynephilia theory has its critics, yes, but it also has its supporters among whom are Anne Lawrence, Michael Bailey and John Cantor. Accordingly, Dr. Lawrence is a physician who is an MrF transsexual and a recognized expert on transsexualism.
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[Havard]

If this were done by the person himself, then I would call it mutilation (or self-mutilation); but not when a surgeon performs an operation. Otherwise, it becomes essentially a pejorative term. Would you call breast removal for preventing the occurrence of hereditary cancer mutilation? This kind of surgery is no guarantee against cancer and does not actually treat a disease.

Yes I would myself. Genetics is not that reliable. Other things can override them. Proper diet. So on.

This example is not analogous.

Preventative mastectomies may be justified by a rationale that does not apply to SRS, because it assumes the future harm would be caused by the tissue to be removed.

 

[billcu1]

There is a suicide contagion phenomenon that makes the baseline suicide rate pre-transitioning and SRS in the transgender population questionable, and at east difficult to establish.

Absurd according to whom and on what basis? Blanchard’s autogynephilia theory has its critics, yes, but it also has its supporters among whom are Anne Lawrence, Michael Bailey and John Cantor. Accordingly, Dr. Lawrence is a physician who is an MrF transsexual and a recognized expert on transsexualism.
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Statistics. Throwing numbers around means nothing. Only correlations they may be high one day and low the next. That’s why we have epistemology. To learn actual reasons and causes.

 

[JimG]

From the National Catholic Bioethics Center:

FAQ on Gender Identity Disorder and “Sex Change” Operations

 

[meltzerboy]

Statistics. Throwing numbers around means nothing. Only correlations they may be high one day and low the next. That’s why we have epistemology. To learn actual reasons and causes.

I am all for epistemology, and while statistics can often be cleverly manipulated, when they are interpreted accurately without (much) bias, they are indeed of scientific value. That does not mean, of course, that a single study or two or three is the endgame.

 

[Jeanne_S]

From the National Catholic Bioethics Center:

FAQ on Gender Identity Disorder and “Sex Change” Operations

Excellent.This should clear up any questions re the Church’s stance on these issues.

 

[mikekle]

Humanity is making a mockery of the Creator. Instead of accepting God’s design, man is deciding for himself what sex he will be. Ultimately, he is trying to become his own creator. This is an act of rebellion at the deepest core. We are witnessing a culture shift that is determined to destroy God’s image of male and female. It is an issue of the heart.

^^^ From a previous post in here… this is very clear in todays world, I only question WHY is not God intervening and set us straight? He did this many times in the past, probably closest incident would be the Tower of Babel…What happened, does God just ignore everything today?

 

[billcu1]

I am all for epistemology, and while statistics can often be cleverly manipulated, when they are interpreted accurately without (much) bias, they are indeed of scientific value. That does not mean, of course, that a single study or two or three is the endgame.

Can one always possibly consider ALL the variables though? In every situation or situations?

 

[Ever_striving]

If this were done by the person himself, then I would call it mutilation (or self-mutilation); but not when a surgeon performs an operation. Otherwise, it becomes essentially a pejorative term. Would you call breast removal for preventing the occurrence of hereditary cancer mutilation? This kind of surgery is no guarantee against cancer and does not actually treat a disease.

How do you feel about ritual female circumcision performed in Africa? Most would consider that to be mutilation, though certainly not as extreme as a sex-change (oh, sorry, “transition”)

 

[meltzerboy]

Can one always possibly consider ALL the variables though? In every situation or situations?

Of course not, and neither can the extraneous variables be totally eliminated. Science has its limitations, for sure. Nevertheless, its method is probably just as good, if not better, than certain intuitive methods of searching for knowledge, which also have their inherent biases.

 

[billcu1]

Of course not, and neither can the extraneous variables be totally eliminated. Science has its limitations, for sure. Nevertheless, its method is probably just as good, if not better, than certain intuitive methods of searching for knowledge, which also have their inherent biases.

Science by it’s philosophic definition is to do that same experiment over and over with exactly the same results. Every time. If that’s not fulfilled. It’s not validly a science. It’s just mathematics. I agree that a philosophic method is only as good as it’s postulates. That includes science, cosmology, metaphysics. The more scientific physics or anything.

 

[Cherry5]

Well, there is the photo of the 65 year-old man on the cover of Vanity Fair.

Please read this in the context the statement was made. Sexual orientation(SSA) and being transgender are unrelated

The point Caitlyn was trying to make was that she was attracted to women before starting to transition and that has not changed

 

[Pulvis]

Humanity is making a mockery of the Creator. Instead of accepting God’s design, man is deciding for himself what sex he will be. Ultimately, he is trying to become his own creator. This is an act of rebellion at the deepest core. We are witnessing a culture shift that is determined to destroy God’s image of male and female. It is an issue of the heart.

^^^ From a previous post in here… this is very clear in todays world, I only question WHY is not God intervening and set us straight? He did this many times in the past, probably closest incident would be the Tower of Babel…What happened, does God just ignore everything today?

No, God does not. But we will not be dealt with as the Jews. We have the life, death and resurrection of the Son of God as a propitiation for sins. If we choose to reject Him and His church, we seal our own fate. There have been numerous times since Christ ascended where one would think that God would have intervened, yet He did not, at least as far as we know. The next intervention will be the return of Christ. And at that point, fates are sealed. We cannot get overly wrapped up in the errors of the world. Pray, adhere to the perinial teachings of the Church and the Gospel, and pray some more.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

How do you feel about ritual female circumcision performed in Africa? Most would consider that to be mutilation, though certainly not as extreme as a sex-change (oh, sorry, “transition”)

I was just going to bring that up.

I suppose if FMG, a practice in certain cultures which is done with the consent of its womenfolk, is performed under anesthesia and in state of the art and sterile manner as in surgery centers in Western countries, the clitoris cleanly cut by a scalpel, should it be considered not violent? According to Meltzerboy, mutilation has the connotation or denotation of being violent.
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[meltzerboy]

How do you feel about ritual female circumcision performed in Africa? Most would consider that to be mutilation, though certainly not as extreme as a sex-change (oh, sorry, “transition”)

BTW, female genital mutilation (FGM) is not limited only to certain countries in Africa. It was not called mutilation until about the 1970’s by missionary groups; before that time, it was referred to as female circumcision. It is a tough call since the practice is a cultural custom with religious overtones, while, at the same time, it has profound negative effects on women. Those opposed to it as mutilation, however, have a hard time justifying male circumcision as a religious ritual in both Judaism and Islam. Neither type of circumcision is performed with the consent of the participant infant or child, and in the case of female circumcision at times not with the approval of the family either. The latter sometimes believe they are forced to submit to the procedure so that their daughter will not be ridiculed by others in the community.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Are you even clear on the pain (being) experienced by the family members of your transgendered and transitioning friends? Or, are you just hearing one side of this family dividing issue?
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I am referring to the article. Of the transwoman I know best all of her siblings wholeheartedly supported her from day 1, her father immediately supported her and her mother wanted to get her to go to a doctor to get her to not be transgender. Her mother feels her Catholic faith cannot accept it.

Exactly! The transgender movement is moving towards a system whereby public funds / taxpayers would cover SRS.

Well I was more pointing at the fact she lives in a country that has government health insurance and covers it.

Mutilate

—verb (used with object), mu·ti·lat·ed, mu·ti·lat·ing.

1. to injure, disfigure, or make imperfect by removing or irreparably damaging parts
2. to deprive (a person or animal) of a limb or other essential part.

How are penectomy and orchiectomy not mutilation of disease free organs?
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With SRS the patient certainyl does not think it is making it imperfect or damaging their body parts and they don’t think it is depriving them of an essential part and I would agree that the genital are not an essential part.

There is a suicide contagion phenomenon that makes the baseline suicide rate pre-transitioning and SRS in the transgender population questionable, and at east difficult to establish.

My friend tried to kill herself twice when there were no cases being reported in the media.

Absurd according to whom and on what basis? Blanchard’s autogynephilia theory has its critics, yes, but it also has its supporters among whom are Anne Lawrence, Michael Bailey and John Cantor. Accordingly, Dr. Lawrence is a physician who is an MrF transsexual and a recognized expert on transsexualism.
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juliaserano.com/av/Serano-CaseAgainstAutogynephilia.pdf
That is an excellent article carving into it.

How do you feel about ritual female circumcision performed in Africa? Most would consider that to be mutilation, though certainly not as extreme as a sex-change (oh, sorry, “transition”)

FGM is an extremely broad term

I was just going to bring that up.

I suppose if FMG, a practice in certain cultures which is done with the consent of its womenfolk, is performed under anesthesia and in state of the art and sterile manner as in surgery centers in Western countries, the clitoris cleanly cut by a scalpel, should it be considered not violent? According to Meltzerboy, mutilation has the connotation or denotation of being violent.
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FGM decreases sexual function to no end other than social taste.