Buddist on Catholic answers?

[Grym]

Mind you. The above description is not a traditional one. It is an exercise I have created myself so there are no guarantees attached and it takes a lot more practice and understanding than I have writ down here. To be sure of success, instead follow the regular path via anapanasati with a good instructor.

/Cheers

Another “mind you” just to be clear. This is just a way to get an insight into the nature of nibbana not nibbana itself.

 

[Grym]

Thanks for the reply, and yes, words cannot contain such things. It crosses my mind to ask you about something that I have experienced a few times in meditation - an “infinite largeness” comes to mind as a description, or being eclipsed by a sort of tangible void, like a drop entering the ocean. I used to experience this sort of thing more when I was much younger, about forty years ago, but recently had the same thing happen, though not quite as deep into it.

I don’t know if you can relate to this description or if it rings true to what you are discussing or not. All I can say is that when it would happen, I would be carried about so far into it and then pull back, perhaps out of a fear of what it was or where it was taking me, as though being swallowed up by an infinity and not sure I was ready to go there. Does this make any sense?

Are you familiar with jhana meditation?

"The immaterial jhanas are designated, not by numerical names like their predecessors, but by the names of their objective spheres: the base of boundless space, the base of boundless consciousness, the base of nothingness, and the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception.[18]
"
From here www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/gunaratana/wheel351.html

This is where God can be found. I would guess without knowing that the last of these states is that which you call Kingdom of God.

I have not tried these states. They are not required for my practise.

/Victor

 

[Grym]

Are you familiar with jhana meditation?

"The immaterial jhanas are designated, not by numerical names like their predecessors, but by the names of their objective spheres: the base of boundless space, the base of boundless consciousness, the base of nothingness, and the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception.[18]
"
From here www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/gunaratana/wheel351.html

This is where God can be found. I would guess without knowing that the last of these states is that which you call Kingdom of God.

I have not tried these states. They are not required for my practise.

/Victor

What I meant to say was. I do not know these states but they might be related to your experience?

 

[Venicejazz]

Thanks Victor,
I don’t doubt that there is such a reference in a sutra and I suppose I don’t really disagree. From what little I understand, Buddhism would not make any belief a requirement of obtaining enlightenment. However, this doesn’t mean that any viewpoint is equally Buddhist. I believe there is at least one sutra where the Buddha specifically says that there are two mistaken viewpoints of death: the view that we survive (without changing) permanently and the view that we are absolutely annihilated. But these two views are not equally wrong: those who believe we do not survive are more mistaken. The words I half remember are: “It is better to have a conception of the Self as big as Mount Sumera.”
Thanks for the discussion. I have enjoyed reading it, though it is unfortunate that some posters seem so hostile.

 

[Grym]

Thanks Victor,
I don’t doubt that there is such a reference in a sutra and I suppose I don’t really disagree. From what little I understand, Buddhism would not make any belief a requirement of obtaining enlightenment. However, this doesn’t mean that any viewpoint is equally Buddhist. I believe there is at least one sutra where the Buddha specifically says that there are two mistaken viewpoints of death: the view that we survive (without changing) permanently and the view that we are absolutely annihilated. But these two views are not equally wrong: those who believe we do not survive are more mistaken. The words I half remember are: “It is better to have a conception of the Self as big as Mount Sumera.”
Thanks for the discussion. I have enjoyed reading it, though it is unfortunate that some posters seem so hostile.

Its the Lankavatara Sutra you are talking about I think. . Ok I am not so familiar with the sutras. I am in fact a firm believer in reincarnation.

Thank you too. The hostility arises from the false assumption that considering something less logical than something else makes the first thing less valuable.

Christianity does not *need * to be logical to be of value. How can Love, Hope, Faith and Compassion be valued by how logical it is? That is utter rubbish.

.

 

[Venicejazz]

The Lankavatara Sutra sounds about right. I should add that I almost entirely unfamiliar with Buddhism in the sub continent. I really only know about Japanese Buddhism and perhaps some Chinese or Korean sources as they influenced Japan. I do have some friends from Thailand, and my impression is that Thai Buddhism is almost half way between Mahayana and Theravada. They have a very “positive” or “substantial” view of Self, which is closer to something found in Mahayana Buddha-nature traditions. Reincarnation is certainly taken literally. You have made me want to really sit down and read the early sutras. (or suttas, as I suppose they would be called).
I liked your words on Christianity. I came here to find out more about Catholicism, but the only thread I’ve commented on has been this one.

 

[eddie_too]

the teachings of the RCC are not illogical.

i would welcome anyone demonstrating where a teaching of the RCC is illogical.

 

[Michael_Allen]

On Buddhism I’d just like to say how much I enjoyed Thich Nhat Hanh’s “Living Buddha, Living Christ”. He identifies many deep connections between our faiths. I found his view on the Eucharist interesting and thought-provoking …

“It is ironic that when mass is said today, many congregants are not called to mindfulness at all. They have heard the words so many times that they just feel a little distracted. This is exactly what Jesus was trying to overcome when he said, This is My body. This is My blood. When we are truly there, dwelling deeply in the present moment, we can see that the bread and the wine are really the Body and Blood of Christ and the priest’s words are truly the words of the Lord. The body of Christ is the body of God, the body of ultimate reality, the ground of all existence. We do not have to look anywhere else for it. It resides deep in our own being. The Eucharistic rite encourages us to be fully aware so that we can touch the body of reality in us. Bread and wine are not symbols. They contain the reality, just as we do.”

Hanh, Thich Nhat. Living Buddha, Living Christ (pp. 31-32). Ebury Publishing. Kindle Edition.

 

[Venicejazz]

Thank you for that beautiful passage. I’ve never read his work because I’ve been foolish enough to let his popularity with the “New Age crowd” turn me off. I see he has much more than platitudes to offer. I think there are many parallels between Catholicism and Buddhism, starting with a deep sense of sacred space. Mass is perhaps the ultimate example of that.

 

[Michael_Allen]

I can only speak personally Venice jazz, but I have found reading some Buddhist texts, and sitting quietly with some Buddhist friends, has developed my own faith.

As you probably know they have a strong focus on experiencing reality directly, without letting the ‘stories’ in our heads run away with us (presuming motives of other people, dwelling on past hurts, etc). I have found that focus on ‘Mindfulness’ and the value of simply sitting quietly has augmented my own faith. It has also allowed me to develop better attention to both other people (being properly present to them) and to prayer and scripture reading.

Their high value of non-human life I find to be a natural extension of the high value of human life already present in my own life. I am spending Lent on a vegetarian diet while prayerfully considering whether that will be a permanent change for me.

There are ‘five precepts’ for lay people that I think gel very nicely with Catholic faith : Avoid killing (value all life), avoid stealing (and then be generous, without clinging to possess and money), be chaste, speak truthfully and avoid speech that hurts, and avoid intoxicants and other ‘toxic’ substances or behaviours.

I also find their view on ‘sin’ thoughtful; that it reflects an ignorance of how to live properly, because people don’t properly see the suffering that their actions cause. They accept that people take time to learn to live more ‘skilfully’, more compassionately. Looking back at my own life I can see slow learning.

My own experience is that different faiths can often come together on the existential aspects of life - we all share the experience of life.

But that’s just my perspective and experience. I know some would be very wary of that degree of syncretism, and I respect their own perspective on that.

 

[daler]

What I meant to say was. I do not know these states but they might be related to your experience?

Grym,
. Thanks for the link. Quite interesting. The phrase “boundless space” caught my eye, as for me it was entering an infinity, not empty or void, however.

. As to the phrase, the Kingdom of God, the highest expression of this to me would be entering the Presence of the divine Manifestation of God, Who is the embodiment of all that that signifies. At the time of the Buddha, when He lived, for those who attained His presence, it would be Him, or at the time of Jesus, Him, etc.

. It is a little hard to explain, but the mystical and eternal reality of the Godhead appears in the Divine Personage and is attainable through Him and obedience to whatever proceeds from Him. Each successive Manifestation of this Godhead is the Resurrection of the former, even as one might say that this spring’s rose is the return of the rose of former years, for the same fragrance and beauty is renewed and resurrected in the new spiritual springtime…

. Something that comes to mind is from the Bhagavad-Gita where Lord Krsna says:

. “Whenever there is a decline in righteousness, O Bharat, and the rise of religion, it is then that I send forth My spirit. For the salvation of the good, the destruction of the evil-doers, and for firmly establishing righteousness, I manifest Myself from age to age.”

. Outwardly, They appear to be different human identities, but those outward mortal forms are but the garment worn. Each is a perfect Mirror reflecting the Light of God, and turning towards these Mirrors and accepting Their Light would be entering the Kingdom of God, I think.

 

[Grym]

The Lankavatara Sutra sounds about right. I should add that I almost entirely unfamiliar with Buddhism in the sub continent. I really only know about Japanese Buddhism and perhaps some Chinese or Korean sources as they influenced Japan. I do have some friends from Thailand, and my impression is that Thai Buddhism is almost half way between Mahayana and Theravada. They have a very “positive” or “substantial” view of Self, which is closer to something found in Mahayana Buddha-nature traditions. Reincarnation is certainly taken literally. You have made me want to really sit down and read the early sutras. (or suttas, as I suppose they would be called).
I liked your words on Christianity. I came here to find out more about Catholicism, but the only thread I’ve commented on has been this one.

Personally I saw a thread about Refuting Buddhism and became curious. . I mean *that * just cant be done!!

I would suggest starting with suttanipata and dhammapada.

 

[Grym]

Grym,
. Thanks for the link. Quite interesting. The phrase “boundless space” caught my eye, as for me it was entering an infinity, not empty or void, however.

Well I have no experience so I am of little help there.

But did you understand why the Bahai Nirvana is seperate from the Buddhist?

. As to the phrase, the Kingdom of God, the highest expression of this to me would be entering the Presence of the divine Manifestation of God, Who is the embodiment of all that that signifies. At the time of the Buddha, when He lived, for those who attained His presence, it would be Him, or at the time of Jesus, Him, etc.

Well here is another thing that we disagree on. Buddha is *not * a Manifestation of God. According to Buddhists. Whatever he was he became through own endeavor, nothing was handed to him.

And the realization he came to was his alone. No God nor man nor demon of his time knew nibbana before he did and explained it. The Buddha explicitly said so according to buddhist scripture.

That is the core of Buddhism. Buddhism is not Buddhism without it. The principal is that we can reach the ultimate goal without the help or sanction of any God. Because it is not his to give.

But of course you are free to believe whatever you want about buddhism just so long as you are aware that Buddhists do not share your view on the Buddha nor Nibbana.

And that you cannot change the view of Buddhism into what you want it to be without removing the very core of it and thus rendering it useless.

Sorry
/Victor

 

[Veedar]

Sutta Nipata, Pasura Sutta, verses 1-7:

1. They say that purity is theirs alone; they do not say that there is purity in the teachings of others. Whatever teaching they have devoted themselves to, they claim that as the most excellent and thus hold diverse truths.

1. The debaters, having entered into the gathering, start disputes calling each other fools; since they are depending on certain teachers, they seek praise, calling themselves experts.

1. Engaged in disputations in the midst of a gathering, one becomes frustrated in one’s quest for praise. In defeat he becomes downcast and, seeking for flaws in others, becomes enraged by their criticism.

1. When those who have test his questions say his talk is faulty, he laments, grieves and wails in his worthless disputes, saying, “They have defeated me!”

1. These disputes arise among recluses and as a result of the there is elation and depression. Seeing this, avoid disputation. There is no value in it other than the praise won thereby.

1. He who is praised in the midst of a gathering for having successfully defended his view, will be thrilled with joy and be much elated in mind for having won his case.

1. Elation itself is the ground of his downfall; for still he talks with pride and arrogance. Seeing this, one should not dispute; for the wise never say that purification is achieved thereby.

Sutta Nipata, Magandiya Sutta, verses 11-13

1. The noble one who wanders in the world, liberated from views, does not grasp them and enter into arguments. As the thorny lotus rises on its stalk unsoiled by mud and water, so the sage, the speaker of peace and free from desire, is unsoiled by the world and its carnal pleasures.

1. The wise one does not become conceited through views or knowledge, for he is not attached to that sort. He is neither enticed by action nor by learning, being detached in every circumstance.

1. There are no ties to him who is free from ideas, there are no delusions to him who is delivered by wisdom. Those who grasp ideas and views, wander about coming into conflict in the world.

This is good advice. Having experienced the futility of forum debates for myself, I shall take this advice. For the vast majority it has nothing to do with learning or growing. It is a macho, ego-masturbation thing, and people start hurling insults at each other in violation of the traditions they profess to believe in. The Buddha was right. Disputations are pointless.

I wish you all well. Time to leave.

 

[daler]

Well I have no experience so I am of little help there.

But did you understand why the Bahai Nirvana is seperate from the Buddhist?

Well here is another thing that we disagree on. Buddha is *not * a Manifestation of God. According to Buddhists. Whatever he was he became through own endeavor, nothing was handed to him.

And the realization he came to was his alone. No God nor man nor demon of his time knew nibbana before he did and explained it. The Buddha explicitly said so according to buddhist scripture.

That is the core of Buddhism. Buddhism is not Buddhism without it. The principal is that we can reach the ultimate goal without the help or sanction of any God. Because it is not his to give.

But of course you are free to believe whatever you want about buddhism just so long as you are aware that Buddhists do not share your view on the Buddha nor Nibbana.

And that you cannot change the view of Buddhism into what you want it to be without removing the very core of it and thus rendering it useless.

Sorry
/Victor

Grym,
. I appreciate the differences you mention and do not disregard what you say, and am quite aware of these views being different, such as Buddha’s enlightenment, etc. Yet for me, in my Baha’i experience (which I do not mean to impose) there is an overall sense of all of these Figures as being expressions of the eternal “Source” of all that is. So, yes, indeed there is a challenge when it comes to resolving the variations inherent in the many religions, as people express their understandings of the traditions which have been handed down regarding them. There is not intention to alter, or gloss over those obvious divergent perspectives in an attempt to make them superficially fit.

. For me ( and perhaps it is more on a gut level), there is a consistency and a pattern which has emerged that allows for one to view the many wells of spiritual water as rising from a single underground ocean, so to speak. The metaphor comes specifically to me from my childhood experience of enjoying the taste of artesian springs which appeared to come out of nowhere, yet later when I understood how the snow melted from a long hillside and percolated through the ground, then I understood these apparently different wells in fact had a common source.

. Growing up on the reservation exposed me to a completely different culture than that of my English and Swedish ancestors. As I recall the subtle impressions of Lakota spirituality, they came more by osmosis than any direct means. Analogous to that, my experiences with Buddhist and Hindu religion, as well as Jewish, Christian, Muslim, etc, has, at the heart of it, the same sweet taste of the artesian well, by which I draw the conclusion that they all flow from the same hillside, fed by One Great Spirit, called by many names.

. Thank you for your patience with me and taking the time to reply with such mindful consideration.

. Namaste

… PS The Lakota would say: MItakuye Oyasin (All are related)
.

 

[Grym]

Grym,
. I appreciate the differences you mention and do not disregard what you say, and am quite aware of these views being different, such as Buddha’s enlightenment, etc. Yet for me, in my Baha’i experience (which I do not mean to impose) there is an overall sense of all of these Figures as being expressions of the eternal “Source” of all that is. So, yes, indeed there is a challenge when it comes to resolving the variations inherent in the many religions, as people express their understandings of the traditions which have been handed down regarding them. There is not intention to alter, or gloss over those obvious divergent perspectives in an attempt to make them superficially fit.

Very good! I appreciate the Bahain endeavor to bring about the Heaven on Earth and not just await it! That is correct right? But I also believe in direct and honest dialog between good intending people! Otherwise the Union and Peace are far to far away. And I am in a hurry! .

And I also understand that you are trying to reconcile all spiritual paths? That is why I am trying to help. It is a great task.But in this case you might be making it greater than need be. You see I think you might be constructing a problem where there is none.

Many (Most) Buddhists combine their pursuit of nibbana with a belief in God or gods. It is not a problem for them. You see since Buddha was a man and his Goal is not the Source. It is in my and most Buddhist opinion not a problem to combine it with a belief in God/gods.

In the Great Forty sutta the belief in Heaven/God(s)/Sin is called Right View that yields Merit.

But the same sutta differentiate the path to nibbana as not containing the need for the above.

. For me ( and perhaps it is more on a gut level), there is a consistency and a pattern which has emerged that allows for one to view the many wells of spiritual water as rising from a single underground ocean, so to speak. The metaphor comes specifically to me from my childhood experience of enjoying the taste of artesian springs which appeared to come out of nowhere, yet later when I understood how the snow melted from a long hillside and percolated through the ground, then I understood these apparently different wells in fact had a common source.

I like to think so too. All things are connected. There is a theory of the Universe that it is actually singular and that the diversity we see is only due to a flaw in our perception that makes the singularity unfold as a hologram. I like the thought. It is pretty complicated and I have not had the time to think it trough to the end yet.

. Growing up on the reservation exposed me to a completely different culture than that of my English and Swedish ancestors. As I recall the subtle impressions of Lakota spirituality, they came more by osmosis than any direct means. Analogous to that, my experiences with Buddhist and Hindu religion, as well as Jewish, Christian, Muslim, etc, has, at the heart of it, the same sweet taste of the artesian well, by which I draw the conclusion that they all flow from the same hillside, fed by One Great Spirit, called by many names.

. Thank you for your patience with me and taking the time to reply with such mindful consideration.

. Namaste

… PS The Lakota would say: MItakuye Oyasin (All are related)
.

Thank you for realizing my prompting for what it was and not as mere banter or aggression. Because that was never the intention. I support anyones attempt at world union and world peace wholeheartedly and I believe we have that in reach within 50 years! A little bit naive? Yes I know but nothing will happen if nobody takes a stand.

All are related! That is easy for a buddhist to take to heart!
And in Sweden we say “Frid” which means Peace. And in Sri Lanka Ayobowan. Which means “May your Lifeforce grow and prosper” or as an pointy eared alien put it…

Live Long and Prosper!
/Victor

 

[Grym]

. I appreciate the differences you mention and do not disregard what you say, and am quite aware of these views being different, such as Buddha’s enlightenment, etc.

Yet for me, in my Baha’i experience (which I do not mean to impose) there is an overall sense of all of these Figures as being expressions of the eternal “Source” of all that is.

Analogous to that, my experiences with Buddhist and Hindu religion, as well as Jewish, Christian, Muslim, etc, has, at the heart of it, the same sweet taste of the artesian well, by which I draw the conclusion that they all flow from the same hillside, fed by One Great Spirit, called by many names.

.

Since we have derailed the thread anyway. Would you mind telling me how Baha’i see Buddha?

What is written about him?

And are you Indian by birth? Does Lakota believe in rebirth?

/Victor

 

[daler]

Very good! I appreciate the Bahain endeavor to bring about the Heaven on Earth and not just await it! That is correct right? But I also believe in direct and honest dialog between good intending people! Otherwise the Union and Peace are far to far away. And I am in a hurry! .

And I also understand that you are trying to reconcile all spiritual paths? That is why I am trying to help. It is a great task.But in this case you might be making it greater than need be. You see I think you might be constructing a problem where there is none.

Many (Most) Buddhists combine their pursuit of nibbana with a belief in God or gods. It is not a problem for them. You see since Buddha was a man and his Goal is not the Source. It is in my and most Buddhist opinion not a problem to combine it with a belief in God/gods.

In the Great Forty sutta the belief in Heaven/God(s)/Sin is called Right View that yields Merit.

But the same sutta differentiate the path to nibbana as not containing the need for the above.

I like to think so too. All things are connected. There is a theory of the Universe that it is actually singular and that the diversity we see is only due to a flaw in our perception that makes the singularity unfold as a hologram. I like the thought. It is pretty complicated and I have not had the time to think it trough to the end yet.

Thank you for realizing my prompting for what it was and not as mere banter or aggression. Because that was never the intention. I support anyones attempt at world union and world peace wholeheartedly and I believe we have that in reach within 50 years! A little bit naive? Yes I know but nothing will happen if nobody takes a stand.

All are related! That is easy for a buddhist to take to heart!
And in Sweden we say “Frid” which means Peace. And in Sri Lanka Ayobowan. Which means “May your Lifeforce grow and prosper” or as an pointy eared alien put it…

Live Long and Prosper!
/Victor

Victor,
. Thank you again for a most thoughtful and courteous reply. Do you know much about the Maitreye prophecies? I have read some, and it seems to me that one has to glean the reality from the allusions which extend with imagery something beyond reality, much like things which appear in the Bible, for example.

. “I am not the first Buddha to come upon this earth; nor shall I be the last. Previously, there were many Buddhas who appeared in this world. In due time, another Buddha will arise in this world, within this world cycle.”

. So amidst all the various pretenders to the throne, whether the false Christs, Mahdis, etc, there are from time to time, or age to age, the real Buddhas, Krsnas, Christ, or Muhammad Figures Who appear and leave something behind them which truly changes the world and stands the great test of time. Their writings remain, the logic and beauty which stream forth from Them leave more than mere passing traces and fleeting fancies.

. So the Baha’i belief is that Baha’u’llah was one of these great Figures, like those who preceded Him, and that the Buddha of Universal Brotherhood, or the Tenth Incarnation of Krsna, the Lord of Hosts, etc, are one and the same, and that this is that time foretold of the gathering by the One Fold into the One Shepherd, or as Black Elk’s vision says (which is of particular interest for me, having grown up in his territory):

. “Then I was standing on the highest mountain of them all , and round about beneath me was the whole hoop of the world. And while I stood there I saw more than I can tell and I understood more than I saw; for I was seeing in a sacred manner the shapes of all things in the spirit, and the shape of all shapes as they must live together like one being. And I saw that the sacred hoop of my people was one of many hoops that made one circle, wide as daylight and as starlight, and in the center grew one mighty flowering tree to shelter all the children of one mother and one father. And I saw that it was holy.”

Again, thank you for continuing to share with me what you have found, that which resonates with your soul.

Dale

 

[Grym]

What is a hoop? And what is the significance of a circle for the Lacota people?

And what bible is it that contains something about the Buddha?

 

[Grym]

Forget the question about the bible. I misread you daler.