Building a Bridge Between the Church and the LBGT Community

[Padres1969]

If you mean Catholic Answers then you are definitely mistaken. It is a lay organization founded and headed by Karl Keating, and he is not a bishop.

No not founded obviously, but it’s based in San Diego is it not? Meaning the bishop responsible for Catholic Answers’ ecclesiastical region would be Bishop McElroy would it not?

 

[Peter_J]

No not founded obviously, but it’s based in San Diego is it not? Meaning the bishop responsible for Catholic Answers’ ecclesiastical region would be Bishop McElroy would it not?

Right, not that he is “in charge of CA”. (But trying telling that to all the Protestant posters who love to say “Such and such statement was posted on the Catholic Answers Forum, so there.”)

 

[Padres1969]

Right, not that he is “in charge of CA”. (But trying telling that to all the Protestant posters who love to say “Such and such statement was posted on the Catholic Answers Forum, so there.”)

My apologies for being unclear. I would hope Protestant, or any other posters, wouldn’t hold CA to be something it’s not.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Let me rephrase my question then: how do we get them to know Jesus?

It would seem to me that the people we are talking about (which to me feels quite awkward, since the conversation should be WITH them and not ABOUT them) - gays, lesbians, and transexuals who are in the Church each Sunday - probably will tell you that they do know Jesus. In fact, they have a deeper relationship with Christ than most of us. That is certainly true for the clergy, but also for those in the pew.

Those who have been hurt by the Church and will not return, well, perhaps they will find Jesus in other, more inclusive churches. I don’t know.

I admire Fr Martin for coming out with his book and being a spokesperson for this concern. It has started many conversations, in parishes as well as in the media.

 

[polki]

Fr Martin is speaking all over the country, and people - both straight and LGBTQ - are coming to speak with him about building bridges. I don’t know numbers, but I see news clips and I read his postings, and I know there are many who want to talk about this honestly and with respect.

I also know that there are parishes in my part of the world that are open and welcoming to LGBTQ members and their spouses and in some cases, their children. I’ve said it before, but it really is the new norm in many congregations.

Fr Martin is striking a chord that is resonating with thousands of Catholics. I don’t think it’s going away. I’m not sure what you all will do with the reality of your brothers and sisters in Christ, standing with you in the pews. There is a lot of reconciliation needed. I’m glad Fr Martin has named it and brought it out of the closet.

Honest question:
How does one become a repentant Catholic in the Church if one maintains a same sex spouse? I’m not saying they can’t come to mass, but they would not be able to receive the sacraments. How does one come into full communion with the Church and her teachings if they don’t renounce their same sex spouse/marriage/relationship first?

 

[Peter_J]

Let me rephrase my question then: how do we get them to know Jesus?

I was kind of forgetting about this question. (Thank you, CSF, for reminding me about it.) Would you clarify, do you mean what should we do differently (if anything) for helping homosexual persons get to know Jesus than we would for heterosexual persons?

 

[edwest2]

Sorry to belabor the point, just saying the analogy - that the Church is a hospital - is valid in some contexts, very incomplete in others.

Suppose there is an alcoholic who shows up at church, kind of smelly, a little loud and out of place. The last thing you want is someone to tell him “Go home, come back when you are clean, and are in a good and stable mood, preferably 3 months sobriety”. No, the Church reaches people - loves people - where they are, right now.

An alcoholic may be in denial for awhile about their own degree of difficulty, but most alcoholics recognize that active alcoholism is a bad state to remain in. 60 years ago, someone who was currently engaged in same sex activity probably would also know that was wrong; not wrong because it was illegal, but morally wrong. They needed the Church, as the hospital.

Today gay individuals likely are in denial of the reality that same sex activity is wrong, a denial reinforced by “the gay community”. Thus they need the Church as the school, or they won’t benefit from the Church as the hospital. The secularists want the Church to function **only **as the hospital, knowing that in the long run it would be an **empty **hospital. The Church needs to be both.

Very true. No bridge is required. Anybody can go to Church. No one will be at the door asking questions. The LGBT community is composed of individuals. Some of these people do not need a photo in an LGBT publication or belong to an LGBT organization. When I see the homeless, I don’t ask them if they are LGBT. When I worked at a hospital in the 1970s and early 80’s, I did not ask anyone if they were LGBT. I knew a few of them were. I did not think for one second what they did on their own time. It was none of my business. I saw a terrible and fake commercial on TV. There was a man holding a barrier that stopped some people from entering a Church, similar to what you see in movie theaters. It was terrible because it gave the viewer the idea that some people were not welcome.

So, respectfully. What is a gay spouse? Or a family with adopted children headed by two married gay men? If I saw anyone standing in Church, I would have no clue if they were gay or the children with them were adopted. No idea. None of my business. And, of course, the Church and God does not want to tell them they can’t go to Mass.

So, why is a bridge needed?

Ed

 

[OraLabora]

I was kind of forgetting about this question. (Thank you, CSF, for reminding me about it.) Would you clarify, do you mean what should we do differently (if anything) for helping homosexual persons get to know Jesus than we would for heterosexual persons?

I would do the same for anyone, not just homosexuals, who find themselves at odds with the Church, be it the divorced & remarried, those in irregular marriages/common law unions, gays whether in a so-called “marriage” or not, transgendered, pro-choice Catholics, and the list goes on. Catholics have no shortage of means to separate themselves from God. However this thread is about the LBGQT community.

Gays are perhaps different in that they have a large, loud and active lobby promoting their “cause”, whereas I see no such movements for the D&R or irregular (heterosexual) unions.

I was one of these once, in an irregular (civil) marriage that I entered when I was a lapsed Catholic. Fortunately the local Church was welcoming to me when I came home, and didn’t put pressure on me to regularize my situation; the priest knew that I knew what I had to do. It took a while to get my wife on board (an evangelical Anglican). I won’t go into the gory details here, as it is part of my private life, but suffices to say that I think the same extended welcoming hand should be available to all who are on the outside, and want to come back home but in the meantime made a mess of their lives and need help and a strong dose of grace to get it back on the rails. My wife and I did eventually have our marriage convalidated perhaps too many years later than we should have, but better late than never. That would not have likely happened if I was turned away for being at less than the ideal stage in my Christian walk.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Honest question:
How does one become a repentant Catholic in the Church if one maintains a same sex spouse? I’m not saying they can’t come to mass, but they would not be able to receive the sacraments. How does one come into full communion with the Church and her teachings if they don’t renounce their same sex spouse/marriage/relationship first?

I understand your question, but I don’t know the arrangement each person has with their parish and or their priest. Would that normally be common knowledge? In my branch of the Church, and in my parish, we tend not to question the state of a person’s relationship with God. But we have Open Communion, so I realize it’s a bit different than in your part of the Church.

What I can tell you is that I have friends who are regular church-going Catholics, are married, or are in a committed relationship. I have attended a baptism in a local parish, with two dads. There are gay-friendly priests in San Francisco so perhaps gay families are more likely to be a part of those parishes.

 

[Peter_J]

I would do the same for anyone, not just homosexuals, who find themselves at odds with the Church, be it the divorced & remarried, those in irregular marriages/common law unions, gays whether in a so-called “marriage” or not, transgendered, pro-choice Catholics, and the list goes on. Catholics have no shortage of means to separate themselves from God. However this thread is about the LBGQT community.

Gays are perhaps different in that they have a large, loud and active lobby promoting their “cause”, whereas I see no such movements for the D&R or irregular (heterosexual) unions.

I was one of these once, in an irregular (civil) marriage that I entered when I was a lapsed Catholic. Fortunately the local Church was welcoming to me when I came home, and didn’t put pressure on me to regularize my situation; the priest knew that I knew what I had to do. It took a while to get my wife on board (an evangelical Anglican). I won’t go into the gory details here, as it is part of my private life, but suffices to say that I think the same extended welcoming hand should be available to all who are on the outside, and want to come back home but in the meantime made a mess of their lives and need help and a strong dose of grace to get it back on the rails. My wife and I did eventually have our marriage convalidated perhaps too many years later than we should have, but better late than never. That would not have likely happened if I was turned away for being at less than the ideal stage in my Christian walk.

Indeed. Homosexual people, heterosexual people … we’re all people.

 

[St_Francis]

I would do the same for anyone, not just homosexuals, who find themselves at odds with the Church, be it the divorced & remarried, those in irregular marriages/common law unions, gays whether in a so-called “marriage” or not, transgendered, pro-choice Catholics, and the list goes on. Catholics have no shortage of means to separate themselves from God. However this thread is about the LBGQT community.

Gays are perhaps different in that they have a large, loud and active lobby promoting their “cause”, whereas I see no such movements for the D&R or irregular (heterosexual) unions.

I was one of these once, in an irregular (civil) marriage that I entered when I was a lapsed Catholic. Fortunately the local Church was welcoming to me when I came home, and didn’t put pressure on me to regularize my situation; the priest knew that I knew what I had to do. It took a while to get my wife on board (an evangelical Anglican). I won’t go into the gory details here, as it is part of my private life, but suffices to say that I think the same extended welcoming hand should be available to all who are on the outside, and want to come back home but in the meantime made a mess of their lives and need help and a strong dose of grace to get it back on the rails. My wife and I did eventually have our marriage convalidated perhaps too many years later than we should have, but better late than never. That would not have likely happened if I was turned away for being at less than the ideal stage in my Christian walk.

When you said the church you went to welcomed you, do you mean that they said it was ok for younto receive the sacraments? Or that they didn’t bar the door when you showed up?

I don’t think anyone has a problem with anyone coming to Mass. I think the problem is with those who want to come to Mass *and receive the Body and Blood of our Lord, Who suffered and died for us *while living in sin!

At some point, each of us must make a choice between ourselves and God. This should be clear to everyone who comes to Mass.

 

[OraLabora]

When you said the church you went to welcomed you, do you mean that they said it was ok for younto receive the sacraments? Or that they didn’t bar the door when you showed up?

I don’t think anyone has a problem with anyone coming to Mass. I think the problem is with those who want to come to Mass *and receive the Body and Blood of our Lord, Who suffered and died for us *while living in sin!

At some point, each of us must make a choice between ourselves and God. This should be clear to everyone who comes to Mass.

It’s a private matter between myself and my confessor.

 

[St_Francis]

It’s a private matter between myself and my confessor.

Oh, I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to intrude.

 

[ProdigalSun]

I was kind of forgetting about this question. (Thank you, CSF, for reminding me about it.) Would you clarify, do you mean what should we do differently (if anything) for helping homosexual persons get to know Jesus than we would for heterosexual persons?

Be welcoming and help them understand their sin. In know way should we be promoting or affirming a sin. To know Jesus is to know your sin. See yourself as he sees you! DOn’t fool yourself into thinking your not a sinner!

Repent, and Love!

 

[OraLabora]

Oh, I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to intrude.

No problem, what matters is that I got to where I needed to be, maritally-speaking. As for the rest of me, it’s still a work in progress. I’m a sinner like anyone else. Today’s gospel is I think appropriate for all of us, and I think is a window on the Holy Father’s thinking:

10 And as he sat at dinner in the house, many tax collectors and sinners came and were sitting** with him and his disciples. 11 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?” 12 But when he heard this, he said, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. 13 Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ For I have come to call not the righteous but sinners.”**

 

[Wannabe_Monk_16]

I guess I must be out of touch with what the Church does, but doesn’t the Church already have a bridge built to all “communities”? The Church has the fullness of Truth and all seven sacraments. How has the Church NOT connected with this community?
I thought the bridge for everyone is contrition, repentance, absolution of mortal sins and then living a virtuous and holy life, especially to include validly receiving the Holy Eucharist for help maintaining your state of grace and increase your sanctification here on Earth so that you may hopefully avoid Purgatory and behold the Beatific Vision.
I haven’t read the book, but is that what the author is offering his audience?

 

[OraLabora]

I guess I must be out of touch with what the Church does, but doesn’t the Church already have a bridge built to all “communities”? The Church has the fullness of Truth and all seven sacraments. How has the Church NOT connected with this community?
I thought the bridge for everyone is contrition, repentance, absolution of mortal sins and then living a virtuous and holy life, especially to include validly receiving the Holy Eucharist for help maintaining your state of grace and increase your sanctification here on Earth so that you may hopefully avoid Purgatory and behold the Beatific Vision.
I haven’t read the book, but is that what the author is offering his audience?

The problem is that the veil is not simply lifted from one’s eyes, to reveal the above, because of the direction the wind is blowing.

The Church has the mandate to evangelize.

To do so, she must meet people where they are. The Church is an instrument of perfection. Not a reward for the already perfect.

 

[edwest2]

The problem is that the veil is not simply lifted from one’s eyes, to reveal the above, because of the direction the wind is blowing.

The Church has the mandate to evangelize.

To do so, she must meet people where they are. The Church is an instrument of perfection. Not a reward for the already perfect.

That’s true but where does the bridge fit in? Anyone can go to Church.

Ed

 

[OraLabora]

That’s true but where does the bridge fit in? Anyone can go to Church.

Ed

The start of any rapprochement is dialogue, which needs a healthy dose of listening.

There is nothing sinister about this bridge building. Just another word for dialogue.

When my spiritual director meets someone with a messy life for the first time, he opens with “I don’t condemn you, I won’t excuse you, I accept your situation at face value”. Then he listens to their story.

If the person expresses a desire to turn their life around, then he works with them. Very often the situation requires a psychiatrist, and he ensures they get professional help before he helps them spiritually.

But without first listening to them, no dialogue will ever be possible. Open the door, and offer to listen instead of lecture. Make them hunger to want to come back. Most people who are hurting want to be heard. This is as true of the LGBQT as an alcoholic, a jilted spouse, and addict, or just someone having a bad day.

 

[Randolph]

Be welcoming and help them understand their sin. In know way should we be promoting or affirming a sin. To know Jesus is to know your sin. See yourself as he sees you! DOn’t fool yourself into thinking your not a sinner!

Repent, and Love!

The bridge is simply Christ Himself…