Bullying and Gossip at Church

[Lorelei12]

I’m sorry, but the OP has made no indication that her affection for the priest is in any way problematic, according to what she has so far written it is an entirely platonic affection. By “hiding” her affection what the OP presumably meant was stopping the physical gestures of their platonic affection.

That is what I meant when I said “hide affection”- I meant the physical display of that affection. I should have worded it more carefully.

However- as others have pointed out, the priest is married. Whether there is physical affection displayed or not, they both should be careful that they are not becoming too involved emotionally. I sure would have a problem with it if my husband were spending an inordinate amount of time with a young woman and getting as close as these two seem, and the priory has reason to be concerned as well. The OP is taking this as some sort of personal attack, and perhaps the other altar server does have it out for her. But that isn’t the point. The issue is larger than her feelings about it.

 

[Xantippe]

Altargirl said:

“we are both equal and it is often himself who initiates the contact,”

That actually looks worse.

EasterJoy said:

“These little “platonic” ventures into physical displays of affection are how priests (and other men not their husbands, for that matter) who are hiding bad intentions identify women who are possibly willing to be a lot more than platonic…young women, women who are vulnerable because they’re going through a divorce or are new to the parish, women who are used to having appropriate friendships with priests and don’t see what is coming. The “friendly” bit is how they feign surprise that their advances were “misconstrued.” It is also how they groom women for a jump from platonic to more than platonic when the opportunity presents itself.”

Yes!

Your priest may be entirely innocent, but he shouldn’t be physically affectionate with you, a young woman not quite out of her teens. I know you think you’re all grown up, but you are substantially younger than he is, and he is in a position of spiritual authority over you. As I think EasterJoy said somewhere, even if he is quite innocent, all this hugging and kissing provides opportunities for less innocent men.

19 is not as grown up as you think it is right now.

 

[Altargirl]

These little “platonic” ventures into physical displays of affection are how priests (and other men not their husbands, for that matter) who are hiding bad intentions identify women who are possibly willing to be a lot more than platonic…young women, women who are vulnerable because they’re going through a divorce or are new to the parish, women who are used to having appropriate friendships with priests and don’t see what is coming. The “friendly” bit is how they feign surprise that their advances were “misconstrued.” It is also how they groom women for a jump from platonic to more than platonic when the opportunity presents itself

Well Easterjoy, if your hypothesis is true, then clearly every single priest I’ve known in the last 6 years (there have been many) are all twisted predators out to get ‘vulnerable women’, through demonstrating physical affection!

I will reiterate what I said before in case you misread- where I live, it is completely normal for a priest to demonstrate physical affection to his parishioners/friends, so as the subject of this thread dictates, my concerns are on the resentful individual who has despised me for some unknown reason since last September, not whether the affection shown by my friend is thought by a minority to be inappropriate.

 

[shainski]

Wow, this thread has really gone out-of-control since i looked at it last night.

I would hardly call what you have experienced as “smooching”.

It does sound like the kind of greeting you have is normal in your area. The problem with our society is that norms change over time. and our new “enlightened” society often deems older customs as something other than they were.

So parents who spank their children are now abusive. teachers who hug young children are predators.

I was even on another site this week, where comment about people who take home leftovers from a restaurant are cheap - but those who grew up in the great depression learned not to waste - now they are cheapskates!

Older people don’t always adapt the new norms so easily.

I don’t know you - I don’t know your priest. I don’t know your local customs. So I take your word for it all. I think other people who comment here are wise to warn you that others may take offense to even this quaint custom. Others warn you of the possibility of a stalker priest on the loose.

For you and this priest’s own welfare, it is wise to reign it in. (Especially since he has been warned of it). You do him no favors by keeping it up. To me - it sounds rather innocent. But you should both understand that in this day and age - you may be judged by those who don’t share your “quaintness”.

 

[Lorelei12]

I will reiterate what I said before in case you misread- where I live, it is completely normal for a priest to demonstrate physical affection to his parishioners/friends, so as the subject of this thread dictates, my concerns are on the resentful individual who has despised me for some unknown reason since last September, not whether the affection shown by my friend is thought by a minority to be inappropriate.

If you are the only one this priest is physically affectionate with, then no- it is not “normal”, no matter where you live. This is not just about the person who reported it- if the priest it was reported to decided it was no big deal, he would not have said anything and just let it go. However, he saw it was a cause for concern and decided to address it, and you need to respect that.

This is not bullying, and it’s not even gossip, since it does not sound like the other altar server made anything up but rather reported what he saw. You would be wise to stop seeing yourself as some kind of victim and instead maturely handle the situation by respecting the wishes of the priory. If this altar server doesn’t like you for whatever reason, and it’s truly about more than your affection for a particular priest, you may need to just accept that you are simply two people who do not get along and be mature about it.

 

[Xantippe]

“This is not bullying, and it’s not even gossip, since it does not sound like the other altar server made anything up but rather reported what he saw. You would be wise to stop seeing yourself as some kind of victim and instead maturely handle the situation by respecting the wishes of the priory.”

Right.

Also, on the subject of gossip, I listen to Dave Ramsey (the personal finance radio guy) and one of his things is enforcing a no-gossip workplace. It’s actually interesting how he defines gossip. He says that workplace gossip is when you do stuff like complain to the receptionist about how bad the IT people are. This is not constructive, because the receptionist has nothing to do with the IT people. What Dave Ramsey suggests is that complaints be taken up the chain of command, which is exactly what has happened in the OP’s situation.

If I were the OP’s mother, I would be very uncomfortable with her being “friends” with an older man, celibate, married, or single.

 

[EasterJoy]

Well Easterjoy, if your hypothesis is true, then clearly every single priest I’ve known in the last 6 years (there have been many) are all twisted predators out to get ‘vulnerable women’, through demonstrating physical affection!

I will reiterate what I said before in case you misread- where I live, it is completely normal for a priest to demonstrate physical affection to his parishioners/friends, so as the subject of this thread dictates, my concerns are on the resentful individual who has despised me for some unknown reason since last September, not whether the affection shown by my friend is thought by a minority to be inappropriate.

I am going to be blunt, here. IF he has inappropriate feelings for you (or inappropriate designs), even if the majority at your parish wonder in the back of their minds where there is something amiss, only a few–or none!–will ever say anything to you, particularly if they like and respect both of you. Even if he does not, though, if you perpetuate a culture where it is normal for priests to kiss or show affection to nineteen year old women in physical ways, you are creating a culture that will hide the “research” of a predator. That predator, if he comes along–or should I drop the naivety and say “when”?–will operate from a position of trust and free behavior that you and your friend will have helped to create for him. Stop and think about the devastated victim of THAT priest, and explain why you are now sticking to your guns in your desire to continue to enjoy kisses from your priest friend.

Secondly, do not be so sure that because the UK has not adopted standards like the US has done that it is not necessary in your “culture”. That was my culture, too, in my childhood! The number of priests who took advantage of the “culture” were a vast minority, but tell me how many of our priests later suffered from the transgressions of those few…all of them!! The priest I am referring to, the one who was inappropriate with women (but especially teens and young women), he kept offending for decades. We arrogantly believed “it couldn’t happen here, surely we’d see it”. As a result, our Archdiocese had to declare bankruptcy, tying up Church assets for years. We only have 124 parishes, but the bankruptcy cost $75 million in settlements alone, not to mention the lawyer time and the years it took off of our bishop and clergy to get through the insults and abuse. It destroyed the trust of many of the faithful, it harmed our reputation with the world, and let’s not forget first and last the devastation it cost the victims. Even if we had no violations at all, it would still would have cost the priests who had to face accusations because there were no conduct policies in place to protect their reputations. Do you have to see our mistakes repeated in your diocese before you learn the lesson, too? Are you willing to bear the responsibility for failing to protect someone else, because you are too proud to be told that human nature still operates the same way in your culture? Heaven forbid!

I will ask you this: Could any man in the parish walk up to you and give you this same kind of kiss? Is this how the men in your parish–of all ages, married and not married–typically greet women who are platonic friends? If it is not, then you can see that this priest is kissing you from a position of trust. He gets to do it when no one else does because you trust that it won’t mean anything. That is a bad example to set. He ought to be *more *careful to avoid the appearance of impropriety than the married men in his parish, not less. As you love the priesthood, you should not allow it, and neither should he.

 

[Annie39]

Well Easterjoy, if your hypothesis is true, then clearly every single priest I’ve known in the last 6 years (there have been many) are all twisted predators out to get ‘vulnerable women’, through demonstrating physical affection!

I will reiterate what I said before in case you misread- where I live, it is completely normal for a priest to demonstrate physical affection to his parishioners/friends, so as the subject of this thread dictates, my concerns are on the resentful individual who has despised me for some unknown reason since last September, not whether the affection shown by my friend is thought by a minority to be inappropriate.

I went back to read the original post to see what you had to say at the beginning. In the first post it seems that you are having a particular friendship with a particular priest but through the different posts you say that all (maybe most) of the priests have this sort of relationship with the parishioners. I thought of asking you where you live because several folks here are trying to tell you that your relationship with the priest is inappropriate and the posters on this forum are from all over the US and the world for that matter and they don’t seem to think that it is normal for a young women to have that sort of a relationship with a priest. I live in southern California, and grew up not far from Hollywood. As a teenager I would “cruise the strip” with friends. (As an aside, that is a no-no too but it was the thing to do and we were headstrong) That area is the touchy feely capital of the US and I never encountered priests hugging and smooching young women. As I see it, if this is the culture at your parish and everyone is doing it attention would not be called to your relationship with the priest and he would not be told to knock it off.
I don’t know whether or not the person in question had it in for you or not. We don’t have his side of this. I would like to caution you also that this forum is known and read by many many people across the country and around the world. It is at least possible that one or more of the people you have discussed recognize this situation and you could cause embarrassment or worse for at least one person maybe more.

Annie

 

[EasterJoy]

Priests can kiss anybody that every other man in the parish is being allowed to kiss that day: brides, graduates, old people, newly baptized babies and their parents, and so on, the other men, if that is how the men greet each other, and in just the same way, which is mostly the guests of honor on their very special days, in front of everybody. OTOH, since priests have the privilege of being at the forefront of so many of our very special days, that’s quite a lot, too.

That’s pretty much it. If that is the situation the OP is in, then while I would admit there is unfairness in it, she still probably ought to preserve her friend from criticism and back off. Keeping his reputation (not to mention her own) above reproach and beyond even remotely credible accusation has to come first.

 

[Annie39]

Priests can kiss anybody that every other man in the parish is being allowed to kiss that day: brides, graduates, old people, newly baptized babies and their parents, and so on, the other men, if that is how the men greet each other, and in just the same way, which is mostly the guests of honor on their very special days, in front of everybody. OTOH, since priests have the privilege of being at the forefront of so many of our very special days, that’s quite a lot, too.

That’s pretty much it. If that is the situation the OP is in, then while I would admit there is unfairness in it, she still probably ought to preserve her friend from criticism and back off. Keeping his reputation (not to mention her own) above reproach and beyond even remotely credible accusation has to come first.

I fail to see the unfairness in it and you are not the only one to say something similar. Would you explain where the unfairness is?

Annie

 

[agnes_therese]

I will reiterate what I said before in case you misread- where I live, it is completely normal for a priest to demonstrate physical affection to his parishioners/friends . . .

Apparently his superior thinks otherwise. And there could very well be some history there, that you don’t know about.

I would be very reluctant to encourage any priest to disobey his superior.

 

[EasterJoy]

I fail to see the unfairness in it and you are not the only one to say something similar. Would you explain where the unfairness is?

Annie

I mean that if he really *is *being criticized for having done nothing out of the ordinary with her whatsoever compared to other women in the parish just like her, if the complaints really *are *totally made up, then that is not fair, but his reputation still has to be protected from that attack, unfair as it is. She needs to bend over backwards to do that for him, even though the other young women may not do that. That is what friends do for their friends.

 

[Annie39]

I mean that if he really *is *being criticized for having done nothing out of the ordinary with her whatsoever compared to other women in the parish just like her, if the complaints really *are *totally made up, then that is not fair, but his reputation still has to be protected from that attack, unfair as it is. She needs to bend over backwards to do that for him, even though the other young women may not do that. That is what friends do for their friends.

It was out of the ordinary EasterJoy.

 

[john78]

bloody hilarious soap opera

no need to watch Jerry Springer with this going on.

poor poor altergirl so misunderstood, it isn’t her fault that she is 19 and the priest is what in his 30s and looks like a supermodel i assume.

would be creepy and a different story if he was in his 70s!. Woooo i bet your boyfriend gets really jealous too huh !?

Altergirl fyi, if ya were not looking for such negative responses and or negative critisism perhaps just limiting your story to people are talking about me and i am being bullied would have sufficed instead of giving such details about it involving a priest. OR you could just take it up with the priest if it is such a problem , or heck even the bishop of your diocese.

But i am more inclined to guess that this story is complete bs and someone is having a good time at everyones expense.

 

[Annie39]

bloody hilarious soap opera

no need to watch Jerry Springer with this going on.

poor poor altergirl so misunderstood, it isn’t her fault that she is 19 and the priest is what in his 30s and looks like a supermodel i assume.

would be creepy and a different story if he was in his 70s!. Woooo i bet your boyfriend gets really jealous too huh !?

Altergirl fyi, if ya were not looking for such negative responses and or negative critisism perhaps just limiting your story to people are talking about me and i am being bullied would have sufficed instead of giving such details about it involving a priest. OR you could just take it up with the priest if it is such a problem , or heck even the bishop of your diocese.

But i am more inclined to guess that this story is complete bs and someone is having a good time at everyones expense.

Wish you were right John but this goes on all the time. Some little girls (17 or 18) almost ruined a priest of my acquaintance life due to their silly notions about him. He was a perfect gentleman but had the adacity of being born very handsome. He was prey don’t ya know.

Annie

 

[Rose71]

Well, I think there are 2 separate threads going on here.

Firstly, the actual relationship with the priest. Yes, priests have a special role in the Church, but they are still human beings. A priest has made a commitment to love everyone and serve God by tending His human flock. A married man has made a vow to love and honour his wife and protect his family. In short - both have made vows to commit to a way of life. So…if the OP would find this kind of affection wrong from a married parishoner, she should also realise it is wrong from a priest.

However, friendship is a beautiful and wonderful gift. The big problem I see is that a relationship that one knows deep down can’t actually lead anywhere lends itself to a kind of distorted glamour: a sort of feeling that precisely because it can never be - every moment shared becomes acutely precious and painful at the same time. It’s not a real relationship and just like porn, it can spoil and undermine the joy of a real, true courtship and marriage. That’s the thing to guard against as far as I can see: that a (platonic) relationship with a man who is held up as an example of goodness and kindness, who feels obliged to listen and help - can become some kind of emotional security blanket and shield from the big, nasty world. That’s when falling in love (or lust) becomes a danger. This is especially so, if the OP is a sensitive soul who worries about what her fellow parishoners are up to!

I am going to stick my neck out about the parishoner who she has a problem with. Parishes are funny places. Single women can and are treated with suspicion at times and anyone who says not is either deluded or attends an amazing parish! I don’t doubt her assessment of the situation as far as this person is concerned at all - not one bit!

If this person was genuinely concerned for her soul and a compassionate human being, perhaps he and others might have befriended her, made her welcome and accepted that she had a desire to be part of their community and serve God. Maybe if she had been made to feel more welcome, she would not have felt such a deep, personal affection for the priest (perhaps he really is the nicest person in the bunch)

The Parish Priest is not the only person responsible for a thriving and friendly parish. It is the responsibility of every single one of the parishoners. Perhaps the priest recognises that some of his flock are rather cliquey and critical and feels like a bit of an outsider himself…well, that’s created a tinderbox, ready to set alight, hasn’t it? All it needs is a young, attractive and vulnerable young lady with a shared interest…

What does this ‘pillar’ of the community do? Does he raise the matter with the priest? No, he puts further strain on the situation by going up a level and creates an atmosphere of suspicion and guilt. Not sensible, considering!

I hope the priest and the OP are recieving sensible, compassionate support from somebody. My advice would be to find a different parish and remove yourself from the situation and my advice to the priest would be to talk to a fellow priest he could trust and get some support and guidance on his vocation (even if that might mean re-evaluating whether he is cut out for his role)

As an aside, we grew up next to the Methodist manse and one of the resident Ministers (they came on 4 year rotations) came without his wife, as she remained close to her elderly parents. He often confided in my mother that the female attention he received was embarassing! Several woman seemed to be battling it out as to which of them ‘took care’ of him the best, from baking him cakes, to popping round for tea and a chat. Of course, that lead to an atmosphere of suspocion and jealousy amongst them and he wasn’t that popular with their husbands either!!!

I am sure nothing improper actually happened - again, I suppose for many of the ladies, it was a man who had to be compassionate listener and always polite and basically a professional ‘good bloke’ so it was a safe environment to fuss over a charming man!

He did once, jokingly, ask my mum how priests managed!

On the flip side, another incumbent was married to a nurse, who was the ward sister where our PP spent some time. After the expereince, at an Ecumenical meeting, he remarked how great it was to be woken up each morning by a smiling lady with a nice cup of tea! The Minister laughed and said yes, but (along with the Anglican Vicar) they told him that both their churches were constantly being bled dry financially by divorce settlements, because so many wives found it impossible to cope with having a husband who was constantly ‘in demand’ for displays of warmth and generosity - and so many other women felt they had a ‘right’ to his time.

I think being the wife of a minister of the Anglican or other churches with married clergy is a vocation in itself.

 

[Chantal25]

Why don’t you simply talk to a different priest and seek guidance?

Because of your age, i feel that there is a fine line with the behavior of this priest. I am sorry that you are hurt but i am not comfortable at all with your priest if he does that (kissing/hugging). Maybe to you, it is ok but you should check this out with another priest.

I am quite close with a priest also but never we hug, kiss, if anything we only shake hand to greet. Priest are so close to Christ that this is easy to feel close to them but you must be respectful of them. They are men after all and they do have need and struggle as anyone else.

So, i say pray for the one that reported you, pray for you priest and ask God to help you to make peace with this and the wise choice.

 

[EasterJoy]

It was out of the ordinary EasterJoy.

I am telling her that even if she can not concede that it is out of the ordinary, it doesn’t matter. We could concede her contention and still not give her different advice: She needs to be protective of this priest’s reputation, if she considers herself his friend in any sense of the word. If you have real love for a priest, you’ll have real love for his priesthood.

 

[EasterJoy]

…But i am more inclined to guess that this story is complete bs and someone is having a good time at everyones expense.

I kind of doubt that. Suffice it to say that parish “dramas” springing from jealousies over a priest’s attentions being perceived as being given to one of the faithful instead of another or his choice of social life and who he does and does not want to socialize with are anything but rare, alas.

 

[april32010]

Altargirl ,all your posts on this forum have been about your relationships with priests,asking whether their behavior was inappropriate or complaining that others view yours as inappropriate just saying and complaining about your pastors direction to a priest under his authority is inappropriate to the nth degree

reported our friendship to the head of the priory about 6 weeks ago, accusing us of being overly affectionate and publicly indiscreet (I hardly call hugging and the occasional kiss on the cheek as 'overly affectionate!), leading the head priest to have ‘stern words’ with my friend about his so called ‘indiscreet affection’ towards me,

if the pastor says a behavior is

overly affectionate and publicly indiscreet

its overly affectionate and publicly indiscreet end of story.