Bullying and Gossip at Church

[EasterJoy]

I’m confused: wasnt the priest supposed to be the predator? Now the ‘young girl’ is the predator… Maybe the other altar server is also a predator!? Seriously, if this was my parish & i had you lot as the old women in the pews - i’d go right up to the priest after mass & plant a big long wet one right on his mouth & tell him loudly that i’d see him later! You actually need something real to talk about.

Forgive me, but what kind of stupid nonsense is this? Do you re-read what you write before you hit “submit”? Do you think none of us has ever been 19, that none of us has never been in a situation like this and perhaps know the possibilities a little better than you do? Do you think that arrogant girls and arrogant priests have never ruined a priesthood and rained disaster on a young woman’s head by winding up in bed together?

You would be an extraordinarily foolish and self-centered girl, if you really did something like that, and you would deserve a scolding fit for a misbehaving child, if you did. Honestly, this is a serious matter–a matter that, when mishandled, has already cost millions of tears and millions of dollars, not to mention souls lost to the Church–so let’s not treat it like some ridiculous concern fit only for old hens with nothing better to do than cluck.

 

[EasterJoy]

I think she was joking. I also thought “bend over backwards” was a ironic choice of words.

Hmmm. “Bend over backwards” is an ironic choice of words…explain that to me. What mental picture made that an ironic choice of words? Would you care to share that with us?

Maybe it is because I live in an archdiocese that had to declare bankruptcy over a very very few priests whose public violations of appropriate behavior with children, young people, and vulnerable women weren’t taken seriously enough, but I don’t find this topic the least bit funny. I don’t think our Archbishop or Vicar of Clergy would, either. That money was paid out because of members of the faithful who are trying to heal from violations of their persons by priests!! This wasn’t about wrecking a building, it was putting a wrecking ball through a soul!! There was a day when there may have been the excuse that no one knew better, *but those days are surely over! *No diocese should have to repeat the mistakes made in ours. This is serious stuff, and it deserves to be treated as such.

I think I’ve made my point. If the OP won’t hear it, oh well. If she gets it, good, and if she doesn’t, she won’t be won over by more words. There’s no good to be done by tossing pearls before swine.

 

[ATeutonicKnight]

Thank you for your Advice. May I point out, though, that I never mentioned that ‘everyone’ was against me, but rather someone who, as a head server is, like me, in a position of authority, but who has held an obvious, and unnecessary dislike to me for unknown reasons since I first began serving in this parish (perhaps for he is against women altar servers, as many in this parish are!). But regardless of the reasons, this individual has made his dislike of me subtly obvious, whilst appearing normal and unbiased to other servers/parishioners.

Concerning my friend’s ‘behaviour’, I have only been a Catholic for 6 years, and in that time, I can safely say that where I live, it is a common norm for priests to show affection to parishioners, of all ages and genders!

I’m so sorry he is treating you this way. I kind of flip-flop on the issue of girl altar servers, but even if I did decide one day I didn’t like the idea of it, if I was a head altar server I would never treat a girl altar server badly. He has no justification for his actions, and I would honestly speak to your Priest friend about it. This man may be the head altar server, but he answers to the Priest, and the Priest can give him an attitude adjustment if he needs it.

 

[Annie39]

I’m so sorry he is treating you this way. I kind of flip-flop on the issue of girl altar servers, but even if I did decide one day I didn’t like the idea of it, if I was a head altar server I would never treat a girl altar server badly. He has no justification for his actions, and I would honestly speak to your Priest friend about it. This man may be the head altar server, but he answers to the Priest, and the Priest can give him an attitude adjustment if he needs it.

Color me skeptical. We don’t have the head altar boy’s side of this. I’m remembering that one of my boys had problems at school he said that his teacher doesn’t like him that he is completely innocent. Let’s just say that his story didn’t reflect the facts.

Annie

 

[jmcrae]

Hmmm. “Bend over backwards” is an ironic choice of words…explain that to me. What mental picture made that an ironic choice of words? Would you care to share that with us?

The girl leans (bends) backwards in the sex act.

 

[EasterJoy]

The girl leans (bends) backwards in the sex act.

Backwards?!? This is just a guess, but that’s hardly exhibit 1a in the Kama Sutra, I’m thinking. Not to get vulgar, but if my post had a double entendre in it, I am at a loss to name a physical attitude that could fail to have a sexual connotation put onto it.

 

[EasterJoy]

Color me skeptical. We don’t have the head altar boy’s side of this. I’m remembering that one of my boys had problems at school he said that his teacher doesn’t like him that he is completely innocent. Let’s just say that his story didn’t reflect the facts.

Annie

They could both consider themselves aggrieved without either being guilty of dishonesty. We rarely see ourselves as others see us, and the younger and less-acquainted we are, the more this is true.

 

[lerapt78]

OP, I’m sorry to hear that you’re not feeling very welcome at your parish. I would echo the poster who suggested that you try to from friendships with some guys closer to your age. Are there any other groups in your parish who join together for activities, such as volunteering, young singles group, etc,?

I could be reading too much into this, but since you mentioned in the other thread (that’s now closed) that this priest is indeed behaving very differently toward you than toward others in the parish (physically speaking), and that you thought it was very unusual, and yet you still claim a close friendship to him. . . . .is it possible you’re seeking male company in an inappropriate way?

Perhaps you could ask the priest to introduce you to some young male parishioners he thinks you might get along well with!

 

[EasterJoy]

OP, I’m sorry to hear that you’re not feeling very welcome at your parish. I would echo the poster who suggested that you try to from friendships with some guys closer to your age…

With other girls, you can be friends with several at once…

 

[russet1]

My wife and I were discussing the other day about young unmarried people and a seeming lack of boundaries. Some just do not understand what is inappropriate or why it is inappropriate. I have had single women at our parish that help out with youth group come up to me and put their head on my shoulders etc. Generally married women do not do that. Now I think the same thing can apply here. The OP is young and from what I gather, single. She may not have a woman’s understanding of behavior. If a married man or a priest kissed my wife on the cheek or anywhere else he probably would be picking himself up off the ground. Not necessarily because of anything I did, but rather my wife.

 

[Joy2day]

Forgive me, but what kind of stupid nonsense is this? Do you re-read what you write before you hit “submit”? Do you think none of us has ever been 19, that none of us has never been in a situation like this and perhaps know the possibilities a little better than you do? Do you think that arrogant girls and arrogant priests have never ruined a priesthood and rained disaster on a young woman’s head by winding up in bed together?

You would be an extraordinarily foolish and self-centered girl, if you really did something like that, and you would deserve a scolding fit for a misbehaving child, if you did. Honestly, this is a serious matter–a matter that, when mishandled, has already cost millions of tears and millions of dollars, not to mention souls lost to the Church–so let’s not treat it like some ridiculous concern fit only for old hens with nothing better to do than cluck.

Look - the current issue in the church is that of paedophilia - ie. priests interfering with CHILDREN (often boys, sometimes girls). That does not include 19 year old women. You are confusing the issues here. Further, the issue in the church is that FOR YEARS the authorities did not take the complaints of interference seriously. That is the issue in the church. It does not include priests relationships with adult women (of which the OP is one). If the priest’s superior cautioned him, it may be because of the nitpicking by some that goes on in his parish. As it is, there is absolutely nothing wrong with friends greeting each other with a kiss on the cheek. We all know that! You are overly concerned with ‘appearances’ and less concerned with actual ‘fact’, which only serves to unnecessarily bind people into straight jackets, or actually force their friendship ‘underground’. You have no indication of anything other than friendship here from either of them. Please save your energy for the time when the OP actually does make a formal complaint about her relationship with the priest, or something like I described above actually happens - then there might be more in the parish who complain. Some priests run off with women, some do not; some have friends. Such is life.

If a situation goes to court, and the allegations are found to be malicious, $$ can be paid. However, if you took the priest and the OP to court based on their current behaviour, I’m afraid that YOU would be paying their court costs!!

 

[EasterJoy]

Look - the current issue in the church is that of paedophilia - ie. priests interfering with CHILDREN (often boys, sometimes girls). That does not include 19 year old women. You are confusing the issues here. Further, the issue in the church is that FOR YEARS the authorities did not take the complaints of interference seriously. That is the issue in the church. It does not include priests relationships with adult women (of which the OP is one). If the priest’s superior cautioned him, it may be because of the nitpicking by some that goes on in his parish. As it is, there is absolutely nothing wrong with friends greeting each other with a kiss on the cheek. We all know that! You are overly concerned with ‘appearances’ and less concerned with actual ‘fact’, which only serves to unnecessarily bind people into straight jackets, or actually force their friendship ‘underground’. You have no indication of anything other than friendship here from either of them. Please save your energy for the time when the OP actually does make a formal complaint about her relationship with the priest, or something like I described above actually happens - then there might be more in the parish who complain. Some priests run off with women, some do not; some have friends. Such is life.

If a situation goes to court, and the allegations are found to be malicious, $$ can be paid. However, if you took the priest and the OP to court based on their current behaviour, I’m afraid that YOU would be paying their court costs!!

Did you REALLY write “Some priests run off with women, some do not; some have friends. Such is life.”

Check through the files released by the Archdiocese of Portland. If you think that priests who have inappropriate relationships with adult women pose no threat to children or to their diocese, or that it does not harm the Church gravely when a priest has “only” an improper relationship with a woman in a vulnerable position with respect to his office in the Church, you are very much mistaken. (And I mean financial liability…let us hope we all realize the damage that could be done to a woman who gets into an improper relationship with a priest!!!)

 

[Xantippe]

“You have no indication of anything other than friendship here from either of them.”

Have a look at altargirl’s previous posts.

 

[lerapt78]

With other girls, you can be friends with several at once…

Edit: Nevermind, I just got it. Friendship with other girls - yes, absolutely. I just mentioned guys because I get the impression she might be seeking a romantic relationship.

 

[EasterJoy]

Edit: Nevermind, I just got it. Friendship with other girls - yes, absolutely. I just mentioned guys because I get the impression she might be seeking a romantic relationship.

Oh, don’t get me wrong. There’s nothing at all wrong with finding a guy! It’s just that she probably needs a bigger circle of friends than you get with just one male, and she could step on some toes if she’s friends with lots of guys but none of the other girls in the parish. Yes, a mix of male and female friends would be great, but probably trying with the females first is less of a minefield in a new parish.

 

[lerapt78]

“You have no indication of anything other than friendship here from either of them.”

Have a look at altargirl’s previous posts.

Specifically, the post on *this *thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=759801

I’m not finding a lot of favor with this priest’s intentions (if described accurately by the OP - we only have her word for it). Yes, it sounds harsh on him, and hopefully we’re all wrong, but he does not appear to be behaving in a priestly manner.

Altargirl has responsibilities as well, of course. But I’m sympathetic due to her age.

 

[EasterJoy]

Specifically, the post on *this *thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=759801

I’m not finding a lot of favor with this priest’s intentions (if described accurately by the OP - we only have her word for it). Yes, it sounds harsh on him, and hopefully we’re all wrong, but he does not appear to be behaving in a priestly manner.

Altargirl has responsibilities as well, of course. But I’m sympathetic due to her age.

Oh, no. ¡Ay, ay, ay! Oh, she must really not have anything to do with this priest. No, he has a position of trust and authority, nothing she was describing in that post is her fault. She ought to absolutely tell everything that she told the forum in that post to her pastor. Everything, and leave nothing out, even if the only way she can manage it is to print it out and hand it to him. None of it is her fault, but her pastor must know what his associate has been doing. It is so very important, I don’t have the words.

Never, out of pity or for any other reason, help a priest to conceal his true character or his true mode of operation from his superiors. Never, never, never. A priest who does not want his superior to be aware of his moral failings is a very great danger to himself, those over whom he has pastoral care, and the Church. He should never deceive anyone, but especially not his superiors, and he should especially not enlist the help of the faithful to do it. This is true of all of us, but the damage a priest can do by putting an innocent front over his faults can hardly be overstated.

 

[Joy2day]

Did you REALLY write “Some priests run off with women, some do not; some have friends. Such is life.”

Check through the files released by the Archdiocese of Portland. If you think that priests who have inappropriate relationships with adult women pose no threat to children or to their diocese, or that it does not harm the Church gravely when a priest has “only” an improper relationship with a woman in a vulnerable position with respect to his office in the Church, you are very much mistaken. (And I mean financial liability…let us hope we all realize the damage that could be done to a woman who gets into an improper relationship with a priest!!!)

The issue of priests & women, from where i am from, is only seen as a threat to them leaving the priesthood. Basically the situation is consentual, so its up to the judgement of the individuals involved. I am not aware that becoming involved with a priest is any different from becoming involved with any married man. Stupid - yes, but a case for legal action & awarding of damages? =not really!

 

[Joy2day]

Specifically, the post on *this *thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=759801

I’m not finding a lot of favor with this priest’s intentions (if described accurately by the OP - we only have her word for it). Yes, it sounds harsh on him, and hopefully we’re all wrong, but he does not appear to be behaving in a priestly manner.

Altargirl has responsibilities as well, of course. But I’m sympathetic due to her age.

Thank you for this - i had not read this previous thread from feb as it was closed. However - after reading such - altargirl should ‘get the hell outta there!’ Relationships on the side or in secret are no good & if his behaviour is erratic & inconsistent & it is doing your head in - get out of it! But - how does one kiss deeply on the cheek? He shouldnt be pulling you close & looking a long time into your eyes - pretty plain signals if you ask me. In life, we have to make choices - we (including priests) cant have our cake & eat it. Unless you (altar girl), want to have an illicit affair with the priest - get out of there! Of course, if he is your friend, and you feel comfortable, you could talk to him and tell him that you find his behaviour inappropriate and ask him to stop pulling you close and kissing you etc, and make it blatantly clear you are not interested in him romantically and want to help him become a good priest. This might be a good way to go if you have friends in the parish and already have some type of friendship with the priest and feel that he will listen. But generally, I would back away and set firm boundaries about the kissing/touching stuff. If you want to go out socially - invite others along as well.

 

[EasterJoy]

The issue of priests & women, from where i am from, is only seen as a threat to them leaving the priesthood. Basically the situation is consentual, so its up to the judgement of the individuals involved. I am not aware that becoming involved with a priest is any different from becoming involved with any married man. Stupid - yes, but a case for legal action & awarding of damages? =not really!

No, not if the priest has pastoral care over the person. It is more like your psychotherapist or physician having a sexual relationship with you while you are a patient. “Consensual” has nothing to do with it; it is a violation of the trust the faithful ought to be able to have in him. So yes, if he is using his position as leverage to take liberties with vulnerable women that he’s supposed to be taking care of in a pastoral setting, and if complaints about him are ignored, absolutely the Church can be sued.

Thank you for this - i had not read this asit was closed. However - after reading such - altargirl should ‘get the hell outta there!’ Relationships on the side or in secret are no good & if his behaviour is erratic & inconsistent & it is doing your head in - get out of it! But - how does one kiss deeply on the cheek? He shouldnt be pulling you close & looking a long time into your eyes - pretty plain signals if you ask me. In life, we have to make choices - we (including priests) cant have our cake & eat it. Unless you (altar girl), want to have an illicit affair with the priest - get out of there!

This perfectly illustrates the issue. If he were not her priest, she would not be “confused”. If he were another man in her parish acting like that, she’d tell him to cut it out! Because he has pastoral care over her, though, and is known to have moral authority, his behavior confuses her instead of outraging her. He’s using his position for leverage to take liberties, and he’s taking advantage of her youth and trust of priests. I do not fault her at all for this, but she really needs to let the pastor know what happened. It will be very hard, of course, because of course she likes this priest and of course he does a lot of good and has been friends with her, but that is what someone abusing their position banks on–that their victims will have enough reasons to hide their misbehavior that they’ll get away with it, or that their victims will believe “I’m special” and not tell or that “good” people will not believe gossip about a priest.

That is the other thing…she should not assume that this happened because of something she did or that she is the only one. That is not a safe assumption, especially not if she’s new to the parish and has no one to ask about him. If she keeps her mouth shut, this priest could offend many times and have no record of what he’s done, because of course every woman is someone he’s convinced is “special”. What he did needs to be in his file, even if it is the one and only time. When you know that you’re known, that makes it a lot easier to make SURE it is the one and only time!!