Bums or Saints?

[jfallaw]

I was at Mass recently, and during the homily Father was talking about the homeless. He said that we should help them, but never give them money. He said giving the homeless money was not helping them, but enabling them to stay homeless. My wife and I were discussing it later, quite offended, as we often give money to the homeless.

The first thing that came to my mind was a homeless friend of ours who works very hard at the labor hall. For various reasons involving the pay rate, cost of fast food (being homeless he has no refrigerator or stove or pantry), cost of laundry at the laundromat, etc, he sometimes doesn’t gave bus fare to get to work or keep his appointments. So we help him with bus fare. I thought, “what gives Father the nerve to say we’re not helping?” Does he know everyone’s situation? Who made him judge of a person’s motives or needs? He never even speaks to homeless people that I know of. It’s easy for him to live in the nice house his parishioners pay for, drive the nice car his flock bought him, wear the nice clothes someone else paid for, and then presume to speak so callously of people he doesn’t know from Adam.

My first impulse was to ask him if he would tell Holy Father Francis the same thing. The Pope is known for sneaking out at night and giving money to Rome’s homeless. Or what does he think of the Holy Father’s namesake? Saint Francis left his wealth and moved to the streets and started begging. He took no vows and joined no order. He chose to be homeless. What if the person I’m giving money to chooses to live in poverty? Is it different because they don’t take vows and get the church’s approval to be beggars? I cannot believe the lack of charity in this servant of God, to say I’m wrong to give my money to the homeless in the evil days, especially in capitalist America, where the rich are saints, the poor are devils, banks are churches and money is god. Has the evil of capitalism seeped so far into our Church that one is considered unworthy of respect because they are poor, and obviously not making a profit for anyone (or maybe it’s that they aren’t giving large sums to the Church?)

I ask anyone with this attitude to consider the numerous Saints who were dirt poor, shabby beggars, and be kind to the homeless without questioning why they are in their situation. If you get to heaven, you just might be surprised to find that it’s full of bums.

 

[JackS79943]

I can see your perspective most clearly and of course we should not neglect the homeless, less fortunate. However it comes to mind those who do receive money from others have the possibility of spending it negatively; drugs alcohol (abusively), cigarettes. So quite possibly your priest was talking about this.
I recommend feeding as a first option and even having a chat to see where they are at and if they see fit to use the money efficiently, example the person you mentioned in your post.
Anyways my two cents
Carry on being merciful as our Father is merciful
God bless

 

[friardchips]

I was at Mass recently, and during the homily Father was talking about the homeless. He said that we should help them, but never give them money. He said giving the homeless money was not helping them, but enabling them to stay homeless. My wife and I were discussing it later, quite offended, as we often give money to the homeless.

The first thing that came to my mind was a homeless friend of ours who works very hard at the labor hall. For various reasons involving the pay rate, cost of fast food (being homeless he has no refrigerator or stove or pantry), cost of laundry at the laundromat, etc, he sometimes doesn’t gave bus fare to get to work or keep his appointments. So we help him with bus fare. I thought, “what gives Father the nerve to say we’re not helping?” Does he know everyone’s situation? Who made him judge of a person’s motives or needs? He never even speaks to homeless people that I know of. It’s easy for him to live in the nice house his parishioners pay for, drive the nice car his flock bought him, wear the nice clothes someone else paid for, and then presume to speak so callously of people he doesn’t know from Adam.

My first impulse was to ask him if he would tell Holy Father Francis the same thing. The Pope is known for sneaking out at night and giving money to Rome’s homeless. Or what does he think of the Holy Father’s namesake? Saint Francis left his wealth and moved to the streets and started begging. He took no vows and joined no order. He chose to be homeless. What if the person I’m giving money to chooses to live in poverty? Is it different because they don’t take vows and get the church’s approval to be beggars? I cannot believe the lack of charity in this servant of God, to say I’m wrong to give my money to the homeless in the evil days, especially in capitalist America, where the rich are saints, the poor are devils, banks are churches and money is god. Has the evil of capitalism seeped so far into our Church that one is considered unworthy of respect because they are poor, and obviously not making a profit for anyone (or maybe it’s that they aren’t giving large sums to the Church?)

I ask anyone with this attitude to consider the numerous Saints who were dirt poor, shabby beggars, and be kind to the homeless without questioning why they are in their situation. If you get to heaven, you just might be surprised to find that it’s full of bums.

I agree with the other poster. The priest has only a certain time to speak with his congregation. And it is sometimes not prudent to give a homeless person money because they can spend it on alcohol. You can make that distinction. If he is drunk or seems a bit boozy then money is a no no. But can one always tell? It takes effort to go and buy coffee and food for them and whatever else. However, if you are familiar with them then I don’t see the problem of giving them a bus fair. If you don’t know the person then you could ask if they use the bus and go and get them a day/week bus or train ticket. The more we DO the more help we are.

If you disagree with a priest then you can always pray about your issue in the rosary as priests are inextricably tied to Jesus’s heart.

 

[Isca]

I agree with the OP. I give money to the homeless and don’t feel it’s my place to ask them what they are intending to spend it on. They are in a bad situation and if they need a pack of cigarettes, so be it.

We should treat people with respect. If you gave a friend a gift of money, you wouldn’t also give him a list of what he shouldn’t buy with it.

 

[friardchips]

I agree with the OP. I give money to the homeless and don’t feel it’s my place to ask them what they are intending to spend it on. They are in a bad situation and if they need a pack of cigarettes, so be it.

We should treat people with respect. If you gave a friend a gift of money, you wouldn’t also give him a list of what he shouldn’t buy with it.

This is not always prudent. Would you give a person a death wish? In some instances giving money will enable them to buy liquor which in some instances may kill them due to the state they are in. It is prudent to discern when it is safe enough to give money. Christians are called to try and preserve life.

 

[Layp3rs0n]

I myself am torn on this. A few years ago, I myself ended up in a homeless shelter. I was out and back on my feet in a few months. However, from living with them I can say you have two types of homeless beggar types: The first just has horrible mental issues or just really bad fortune and they end up in that situation because, well life threw them a curve ball, or the second, the kind that just suck at being responsible. I know two who I lived with were the latter. One was on drugs, Potpourri and weed. He just smoked all the time. Then he got a job and I was like “Hey awesome, good work.” but he used all his job money for more drugs. Another was unemployed and refused to work. He was offered a job as a janitor but claimed the work of a custodian was “below him” and he never took the job.

But there are others as mentioned above that are truly just from bad circumstance, that want to get back on their feet but have no job offers, have to spend what little money they have keeping a phone on in case they get a job offer (a shelter may not allow personal calls to its residence), spend much time washing clothes at laundromats because the shelter kicks them out in the snow at day break until 4 PM and they become covered by salt from the road, who while in said shelter are susceptible to contracting every kind of airborne illness from cramped quarters, or who, and I’m not kidding, lose what part time jobs they have because if they break curfew the shelter may kick them out and they may have to sleep in the cold.

It’s a conundrum. Wish there was an answer.

 

[Overture]

I don’t think it’s our place to dictate what they do with the money, honestly. Charity is a two-way street. By selflessly donating money we could use for other things to people, it raises us up, as well, and reorients our minds.

In the same vein, I rarely lend thoughts to whether or not the person “deserves it” or will spend it wisely, honestly. To me, they are engaging in one of the most humble acts of humility out there: to willingly tell your community, “I need help and can’t do it on my own. Please help me.” Regardless of their conditions or habits or addictions, we should hold the very act of “begging” as one of the most perfect acts of humility out there, and that they are indeed incredibly blessed in Heaven for being able to do so.

How many of us would be able to sit on a street corner and look up at a person walking by in fancy clothes and ask them to spare some money? Ultimately, we cannot know what they will spend the money on (unless we give them food, which I most often do-- I carry apples and other long-lasting fruit, cereal bars, etc. around with me when I can).

The question is whether or not we have the right to withhold our charity based on our own assessment of their sinfulness, bad habits, or potentially harmful behavior. If God did the same, would any of us be granted grace at any time in our sinful, rebellious lives?

 

[friardchips]

I don’t think it’s our place to dictate what they do with the money, honestly. Charity is a two-way street. By selflessly donating money we could use for other things to people, it raises us up, as well, and reorients our minds.

In the same vein, I rarely lend thoughts to whether or not the person “deserves it” or will spend it wisely, honestly. To me, they are engaging in one of the most humble acts of humility out there: to willingly tell your community, “I need help and can’t do it on my own. Please help me.” Regardless of their conditions or habits or addictions, we should hold the very act of “begging” as one of the most perfect acts of humility out there, and that they are indeed incredibly blessed in Heaven for being able to do so.

How many of us would be able to sit on a street corner and look up at a person walking by in fancy clothes and ask them to spare some money? Ultimately, we cannot know what they will spend the money on (unless we give them food, which I most often do-- I carry apples and other long-lasting fruit, cereal bars, etc. around with me when I can).

The question is whether or not we have the right to withhold our charity based on our own assessment of their sinfulness, bad habits, or potentially harmful behavior. If God did the same, would any of us be granted grace at any time in our sinful, rebellious lives?

Being prudent is not judging anyone?! And neither is it taking anything away from the absolute humility in begging - these people are very close to God. So all the more reason to make sure we bless their efforts by taking care with them.

 

[Overture]

Being prudent is not judging anyone?! And neither is it taking anything away from the absolute humility in begging - these people are very close to God. So all the more reason to make sure we bless their efforts by taking care with them.

I’m saying that there is no way of knowing what an individual will do with charity. You could see a homeless person who “looks and acts” like they’re actively on drugs and will likely buy more drugs. But if you deny them charity on this basis, then that rejects the idea that anybody can repent and change their ways by an act of grace and will at any given time. If you say, “I’m going to pass by this drug-addled person because they’ll likely buy more drugs,” then you’ve gone past being prudent and are now resting somewhere along the lines of determinism.

Just my opinion, of course! I respect where you’re coming from.

 

[agnes_therese]

I think you’re being very uncharitable yourself – toward your priest. He does not have time, in a homily, to go into all the many possible scenarios. In many cases, what he said is exactly right. And for you to accuse him of failing in charity and being callous, because he wants to do what’s best for people . . .

I was at Mass recently, and during the homily Father was talking about the homeless. He said that we should help them, but never give them money. He said giving the homeless money was not helping them, but enabling them to stay homeless. My wife and I were discussing it later, quite offended, as we often give money to the homeless.

The first thing that came to my mind was a homeless friend of ours who works very hard at the labor hall. For various reasons involving the pay rate, cost of fast food (being homeless he has no refrigerator or stove or pantry), cost of laundry at the laundromat, etc, he sometimes doesn’t gave bus fare to get to work or keep his appointments. So we help him with bus fare. I thought, “what gives Father the nerve to say we’re not helping?” Does he know everyone’s situation? Who made him judge of a person’s motives or needs? He never even speaks to homeless people that I know of. It’s easy for him to live in the nice house his parishioners pay for, drive the nice car his flock bought him, wear the nice clothes someone else paid for, and then presume to speak so callously of people he doesn’t know from Adam.

My first impulse was to ask him if he would tell Holy Father Francis the same thing. The Pope is known for sneaking out at night and giving money to Rome’s homeless. Or what does he think of the Holy Father’s namesake? Saint Francis left his wealth and moved to the streets and started begging. He took no vows and joined no order. He chose to be homeless. What if the person I’m giving money to chooses to live in poverty? Is it different because they don’t take vows and get the church’s approval to be beggars? I cannot believe the lack of charity in this servant of God, to say I’m wrong to give my money to the homeless in the evil days, especially in capitalist America, where the rich are saints, the poor are devils, banks are churches and money is god. Has the evil of capitalism seeped so far into our Church that one is considered unworthy of respect because they are poor, and obviously not making a profit for anyone (or maybe it’s that they aren’t giving large sums to the Church?)

I ask anyone with this attitude to consider the numerous Saints who were dirt poor, shabby beggars, and be kind to the homeless without questioning why they are in their situation. If you get to heaven, you just might be surprised to find that it’s full of bums.

 

[PaulfromIowa]

Many in the human services field will tell you to never give cash to beggars because they know that many of them are spending that cash on alcohol and tobacco. Many street beggars are not homeless at all. Giving money to someone you know is an entirely different matter.

I thought, “what gives Father the nerve to say we’re not helping?” Does he know everyone’s situation? Who made him judge of a person’s motives or needs? He never even speaks to homeless people that I know of. It’s easy for him to live in the nice house his parishioners pay for, drive the nice car his flock bought him, wear the nice clothes someone else paid for, and then presume to speak so callously of people he doesn’t know from Adam.

Such hateful prejudice against the priest is very uncharitable.

 

[Sarcelle]

I myself am torn on this. A few years ago, I myself ended up in a homeless shelter. I was out and back on my feet in a few months. However, from living with them I can say you have two types of homeless beggar types: The first just has horrible mental issues or just really bad fortune and they end up in that situation because, well life threw them a curve ball, or the second, the kind that just suck at being responsible. I know two who I lived with were the latter. One was on drugs, Potpourri and weed. He just smoked all the time. Then he got a job and I was like “Hey awesome, good work.” but he used all his job money for more drugs. Another was unemployed and refused to work. He was offered a job as a janitor but claimed the work of a custodian was “below him” and he never took the job.

But there are others as mentioned above that are truly just from bad circumstance, that want to get back on their feet but have no job offers, have to spend what little money they have keeping a phone on in case they get a job offer (a shelter may not allow personal calls to its residence), spend much time washing clothes at laundromats because the shelter kicks them out in the snow at day break until 4 PM and they become covered by salt from the road, who while in said shelter are susceptible to contracting every kind of airborne illness from cramped quarters, or who, and I’m not kidding, lose what part time jobs they have because if they break curfew the shelter may kick them out and they may have to sleep in the cold.

It’s a conundrum. Wish there was an answer.

Do you know what percent of the homeless have untreated mental issues?

I once heard that the majority do have mental issues while a lot smaller number fraction are down on their luck.

 

[Gregory_Olson]

I was at Mass recently, and during the homily Father was talking about the homeless. He said that we should help them, but never give them money. He said giving the homeless money was not helping them, but enabling them to stay homeless. My wife and I were discussing it later, quite offended, as we often give money to the homeless.

The first thing that came to my mind was a homeless friend of ours who works very hard at the labor hall. For various reasons involving the pay rate, cost of fast food (being homeless he has no refrigerator or stove or pantry), cost of laundry at the laundromat, etc, he sometimes doesn’t gave bus fare to get to work or keep his appointments. So we help him with bus fare. I thought, “what gives Father the nerve to say we’re not helping?” Does he know everyone’s situation? Who made him judge of a person’s motives or needs? He never even speaks to homeless people that I know of. It’s easy for him to live in the nice house his parishioners pay for, drive the nice car his flock bought him, wear the nice clothes someone else paid for, and then presume to speak so callously of people he doesn’t know from Adam.

My first impulse was to ask him if he would tell Holy Father Francis the same thing. The Pope is known for sneaking out at night and giving money to Rome’s homeless. Or what does he think of the Holy Father’s namesake? Saint Francis left his wealth and moved to the streets and started begging. He took no vows and joined no order. He chose to be homeless. What if the person I’m giving money to chooses to live in poverty? Is it different because they don’t take vows and get the church’s approval to be beggars? I cannot believe the lack of charity in this servant of God, to say I’m wrong to give my money to the homeless in the evil days, especially in capitalist America, where the rich are saints, the poor are devils, banks are churches and money is god. Has the evil of capitalism seeped so far into our Church that one is considered unworthy of respect because they are poor, and obviously not making a profit for anyone (or maybe it’s that they aren’t giving large sums to the Church?)

I ask anyone with this attitude to consider the numerous Saints who were dirt poor, shabby beggars, and be kind to the homeless without questioning why they are in their situation. If you get to heaven, you just might be surprised to find that it’s full of bums.

Hey Jfallaw,

Except for the parts where you wrong your priest or our mother Church, you’re absolutely right. (Especially the part about the bum-filled heaven… I’ll be quoting that. ) I think the problem here is that you misunderstood the priest’s sermon; it’s likely he was absolutely right too.

Of course our ideas can never be perfectly translated into language. It wouldn’t surprise me if nine-tenths of all human misunderstanding could be chalked up to misspeach.
For this reason, I believe a good Catholic policy is to try to interpret the best possible meaning from what others say.
In this case it seems fairly obvious to me that the priest was trying to encourage discretion in generosity. In other words, there is much more you can do for a homeless drug addict than to simply throw more money at him. I highly doubt he meant to pass a blanket condemnation of all monetary gifts to the homeless in general, even if he did in fact say something like that.

I feel like that would be one of the worst things about being ordained. One could never not think carefully about what one says, and even then anything one says can and will be twisted and used against the Church.

The real cause for concern here is: why were you so ready to see sinfulness in your priest’s homily? Leave that to the new-atheists and the liberal progressives; as a Catholic you should be one of the voices that supports your foster-father, even and especially in his awkward indiscretion. I’ll bet it’s things like this that keep him up at night.

-Greg

 

[friardchips]

I think you’re being very uncharitable yourself – toward your priest. He does not have time, in a homily, to go into all the many possible scenarios. In many cases, what he said is exactly right. And for you to accuse him of failing in charity and being callous, because he wants to do what’s best for people . . .

I’m in the opinion you are correct to stick up for the priest here but I don’t think the OP meant to be uncharitable. …

 

[friardchips]

I’m saying that there is no way of knowing what an individual will do with charity. You could see a homeless person who “looks and acts” like they’re actively on drugs and will likely buy more drugs. But if you deny them charity on this basis, then that rejects the idea that anybody can repent and change their ways by an act of grace and will at any given time. If you say, “I’m going to pass by this drug-addled person because they’ll likely buy more drugs,” then you’ve gone past being prudent and are now resting somewhere along the lines of determinism.

Just my opinion, of course! I respect where you’re coming from.

I see your point too. I do have to stick with mine here though because God would not ever give us anything evil, we do have those choices, but along with these choices he gave us a conscience to help us not do them and He always nudges us to do the right thing and gives little pointers and guidelines to follow, including Jesus, as an example, and Mary and the Saints. We have a big advantage to know what is bad for us, more than a homeless person who maybe has got into such a desperate situation that they don’t think quite so rationally as they once did. This is not their fault but do rely on us knowing what is good for them. A bit like parents with children. As soon as a person no matter what age becomes vulnerable the stronger person is automatically in a position of responsibility. I do understand about not judging - but we are not judging the person. Faith is good in this situation, granted, to trust they’ll be okay, but not at the sacrifice of reason and a care-of-duty. I think you see my point. Forget the determinism bit, I’m not fond of that sort of thing either, but rather try and see it as making a thoughtful assessment which we are called to do in any situation. I don’t think as Christians we have a right to just walk past unless they purposefully don’t want our attention or someone else is helping. In cities it is harder to go up to each homeless person and we have to rely on other people’s generosity a bit too but no one is saying to just look the other way. If we do it is something to say sorry to God for, I think. Sometimes people can be shy and do not want to approach homeless people but this is still an excuse even if a genuine and understandable one.

 

[agnes_therese]

I’m in the opinion you are correct to stick up for the priest here but I don’t think the OP meant to be uncharitable. …

Well, when you say a priest spoke “callously,” and say “I cannot believe the lack of charity in this servant of God” . . . eh, I’ll stand behind my opinion.

 

[friardchips]

Well, when you say a priest spoke “callously,” and say “I cannot believe the lack of charity in this servant of God” . . . eh, I’ll stand behind my opinion.

Okay. I just think the OP is just upset 'tis all.

 

[jmcrae]

I was at Mass recently, and during the homily Father was talking about the homeless. He said that we should help them, but never give them money. He said giving the homeless money was not helping them, but enabling them to stay homeless. My wife and I were discussing it later, quite offended, as we often give money to the homeless.

The first thing that came to my mind was a homeless friend of ours who works very hard at the labor hall. For various reasons involving the pay rate, cost of fast food (being homeless he has no refrigerator or stove or pantry), cost of laundry at the laundromat, etc, he sometimes doesn’t gave bus fare to get to work or keep his appointments. So we help him with bus fare. I thought, “what gives Father the nerve to say we’re not helping?” Does he know everyone’s situation? Who made him judge of a person’s motives or needs? He never even speaks to homeless people that I know of. It’s easy for him to live in the nice house his parishioners pay for, drive the nice car his flock bought him, wear the nice clothes someone else paid for, and then presume to speak so callously of people he doesn’t know from Adam.

I think there’s a difference between giving money to people you know, where you know what they’re spending the money on - which is what you are doing - and the practice of some who think they are doing good by throwing coins at every random beggar.

In the Didache, which is the Teaching of the Apostles when speaking of giving to the poor, it says, **And also concerning this, it has been said, Let your alms sweat in your hands, until you know to whom you should give. **

 

[jfallaw]

This is not the only time Father has shown bias against the homeless. And no, I don’t think that what he said was right. It’s his opinion, but many will take it as Church doctrine that we are not to give money to the poor. Trust me, we have put up with a lot of negativity from this particular priest. We love him and pray for him, but he seems to have a very worldly spirit.

Edit: I certainly don’t mean to “disrespect” the priest, but it’s ,ore that I have seen this from many, many priests in this day and age, as though the spirit of Mammon and the Masonic mindset of greed and anti-Christianity is pervading deep into the Church. I’m more frustrated at the state of the Church as a whole, than at my particular parish Priest.

I think you’re being very uncharitable yourself – toward your priest. He does not have time, in a homily, to go into all the many possible scenarios. In many cases, what he said is exactly right. And for you to accuse him of failing in charity and being callous, because he wants to do what’s best for people . . .

 

[horselvr]

I think there’s a difference between giving money to people you know, where you know what they’re spending the money on - which is what you are doing - and the practice of some who think they are doing good by throwing coins at every random beggar.

In the Didache, which is the Teaching of the Apostles when speaking of giving to the poor, it says, **And also concerning this, it has been said, Let your alms sweat in your hands, until you know to whom you should give. **

Thank you so much for posting this jmcrae as this has helped me.

I sometimes take in the homeless—those that are homeless through circumstance and not those that are homeless by choice. There is actually a whole movement out there of people that have discovered it pays to be “homeless” and they make a pretty good salary off of those that feel like helping them by giving them a few dollars. Those that were homeless through no fault of their own or just down on their luck that lived here with me have gone on to find jobs and get an apt and eventually furniture and so on and so forth. I am forever grateful to them for allowing me this opportunity to be of service. Not one took advantage or pocketed one thing—only what I gave them.

On the other hand, my sister asked if I would give her bum of a son (“homeless by choice” but I didn’t know this until it was too late) X amount of dollars/month since he was/is living on the “streets” (so he tells her). I told her no but he could come here if he wanted and he could find a job and pull it together. He jumped at the chance and I was glad to help UNTIL I discovered he intent was not to look for a job (he sat on my couch watching the Casey Anthony case). His intent all along was to use my home as his flop house until the shelters opened up again.

I finally had to drive him to the nearest train station and send him on his way but not until he told me how everyone pan handles and makes a good living off of the suckers like me and those that give them money. He told me that he and his friends take the money and they get motels rooms that they do not live on the streets blah blah.

Before he got out of my car I told him that had I known this is the way he and his friends felt about those that want to help I would have never allowed him to come. That I could have taken in a woman a her children or a man down on his luck instead of a free loader.
So I am very glad to see this: Didache, which is the Teaching of the Apostles when speaking of giving to the poor, it says, **And also concerning this, it has been said, Let your alms sweat in your hands, until you know to whom you should give.

Now my alms sweat in my hands until the next person (s) that really do need the help. Beware of those that are “homeless” by choice.**