Bums or Saints?

[MarkInOregon]

This is not the only time Father has shown bias against the homeless. And no, I don’t think that what he said was right. It’s his opinion, but many will take it as Church doctrine that we are not to give money to the poor. Trust me, we have put up with a lot of negativity from this particular priest. We love him and pray for him, but he seems to have a very worldly spirit.

Edit: I certainly don’t mean to “disrespect” the priest, but it’s ,ore that I have seen this from many, many priests in this day and age, as though the spirit of Mammon and the Masonic mindset of greed and anti-Christianity is pervading deep into the Church. I’m more frustrated at the state of the Church as a whole, than at my particular parish Priest.

Can we only give money to the beggars we see? Instead of throwing a few stray coins or dollars at them–is it possible to consider offering them a meal or can you carry a sack lunch in your car to pass out to them? Can you also give them a card with information on where they could seek help or assistance? Can you get them to a shelter? We are not limited to money in what we give or do to help the poor. Receiving advice from your priest–similar to what you would receive from many who work with the homeless regarding handing them money–doesn’t seem like something to get that upset about. Is saying it may be best not to give them money showing a bias against the homeless–or is it suggesting that it may not be the best way to help the homeless? I mean does your priest get up there and tell you not to feed and clothe the homeless? Does he tell you not to help out at shelters for them? Does he tell you not to help them in anyway? That is certainly not the spirit I see among the priests I know and it’s not what I hear from the Church.

Each situation will call for a prudential judgement on our part regarding what is best. The guy with the honest sign saying he needs a drink will not get money from me but he will be offered a sack lunch to eat. Perhaps that will just free up money he gets for booze but I think that’s where the money would go at the expense of food anyway. If I give money–others are right maybe it’s not up to me to say how it is spent–but I don’t want to be responsible for someones heroin overdose–when possibly with a little more time and thought–I could have offered alternative help rather than throwing a few dollars their way. I want to help not hurt–and there are times when giving money will hurt rather than help–we need to be aware of that.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[MarkInOregon]

otjm;12526980:

I’ve been in your challenge close to 15 yrs. now not only as a person in the medical field but in the frontlines of the homeless and the poor. You quote scripture but allow me one: The Wedding of Canaan. When Christ turned water into wine during the festivity, he didn’t call out THOSE WITH ALCOHOL ADDICTION CANNOT COME TO DRINK FOR IT’S ONLY FOR THE SOBER AND THE SINNLESS. I don’t recall Him stating anything like that so why would you? Give them what they need. If its money so be it. Give it. It’s not for us to chose how they will spend it. If you have so doubts recite some scriptures along with your gift if your uncomfortable. If Alcohol makes his life just a bit better and tolerable so be it. Better yet if you can only offer them charitableness follow them throughout the whole charitable process. Perhaps you have already done it but I see very little to no assistance nor follow through for them. Don’t get me wrong they are grateful for any assistance you may be providing for but in the long run it’s only a small band aid to a much greater problem. Are we satisfied with this? I’m not.

You really think the Wedding of Canaan is a good scriptural example for the discussion?

You say “Give them what they need. If it is money so be it.” That’s fine no issue there–but is there ever a time when money is not really what they need–in your opinion? Isn’t that the question–what is the best way to help–what is it they need? Are we really asking the question --what is it they need?

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[estesbob]

I was at Mass recently, and during the homily Father was talking about the homeless. He said that we should help them, but never give them money. He said giving the homeless money was not helping them, but enabling them to stay homeless. My wife and I were discussing it later, quite offended, as we often give money to the homeless.

The first thing that came to my mind was a homeless friend of ours who works very hard at the labor hall. For various reasons involving the pay rate, cost of fast food (being homeless he has no refrigerator or stove or pantry), cost of laundry at the laundromat, etc, he sometimes doesn’t gave bus fare to get to work or keep his appointments. So we help him with bus fare. I thought, “what gives Father the nerve to say we’re not helping?” Does he know everyone’s situation? Who made him judge of a person’s motives or needs? He never even speaks to homeless people that I know of. It’s easy for him to live in the nice house his parishioners pay for, drive the nice car his flock bought him, wear the nice clothes someone else paid for, and then presume to speak so callously of people he doesn’t know from Adam.

My first impulse was to ask him if he would tell Holy Father Francis the same thing. The Pope is known for sneaking out at night and giving money to Rome’s homeless. Or what does he think of the Holy Father’s namesake? Saint Francis left his wealth and moved to the streets and started begging. He took no vows and joined no order. He chose to be homeless. What if the person I’m giving money to chooses to live in poverty? Is it different because they don’t take vows and get the church’s approval to be beggars? I cannot believe the lack of charity in this servant of God, to say I’m wrong to give my money to the homeless in the evil days, especially in capitalist America, where the rich are saints, the poor are devils, banks are churches and money is god. Has the evil of capitalism seeped so far into our Church that one is considered unworthy of respect because they are poor, and obviously not making a profit for anyone (or maybe it’s that they aren’t giving large sums to the Church?)

I ask anyone with this attitude to consider the numerous Saints who were dirt poor, shabby beggars, and be kind to the homeless without questioning why they are in their situation. If you get to heaven, you just might be surprised to find that it’s full of bums.

I give money to the homeless all the time. I look at as bringing some joy into their lives-not a long term solution to their problem. I also look upon it as helping to fulfill my personal obligation to help the poor and needy

 

[estesbob]

otjm;12528103:

your a little confused my friend. I’m not saying to hand out booze and drugs. I’m saying give them what they ask for and not to worry what they may use it for.

I don’t care what they use it for.

 

[WilT]

WilT;12527687:

You really think the Wedding of Canaan is a good scriptural example for the discussion?

You say “Give them what they need. If it is money so be it.” That’s fine no issue there–but is there ever a time when money is not really what they need–in your opinion? Isn’t that the question–what is the best way to help–what is it they need? Are we really asking the question --what is it they need?

The peace of Christ,
Mark

I have already discussed it on post #31

 

[BrassAnkles]

I was at Mass recently, and during the homily Father was talking about the homeless. He said that we should help them, but never give them money. He said giving the homeless money was not helping them, but enabling them to stay homeless. My wife and I were discussing it later, quite offended, as we often give money to the homeless.

The first thing that came to my mind was a homeless friend of ours who works very hard at the labor hall. For various reasons involving the pay rate, cost of fast food (being homeless he has no refrigerator or stove or pantry), cost of laundry at the laundromat, etc, he sometimes doesn’t gave bus fare to get to work or keep his appointments. So we help him with bus fare. I thought, “what gives Father the nerve to say we’re not helping?” Does he know everyone’s situation? Who made him judge of a person’s motives or needs? He never even speaks to homeless people that I know of. It’s easy for him to live in the nice house his parishioners pay for, drive the nice car his flock bought him, wear the nice clothes someone else paid for, and then presume to speak so callously of people he doesn’t know from Adam.

My first impulse was to ask him if he would tell Holy Father Francis the same thing. The Pope is known for sneaking out at night and giving money to Rome’s homeless. Or what does he think of the Holy Father’s namesake? Saint Francis left his wealth and moved to the streets and started begging. He took no vows and joined no order. He chose to be homeless. What if the person I’m giving money to chooses to live in poverty? Is it different because they don’t take vows and get the church’s approval to be beggars? I cannot believe the lack of charity in this servant of God, to say I’m wrong to give my money to the homeless in the evil days, especially in capitalist America, where the rich are saints, the poor are devils, banks are churches and money is god. Has the evil of capitalism seeped so far into our Church that one is considered unworthy of respect because they are poor, and obviously not making a profit for anyone (or maybe it’s that they aren’t giving large sums to the Church?)

I ask anyone with this attitude to consider the numerous Saints who were dirt poor, shabby beggars, and be kind to the homeless without questioning why they are in their situation. If you get to heaven, you just might be surprised to find that it’s full of bums.

I love the poor and downtrodden!

 

[MarkInOregon]

MarkInOregon;12539163:

I have already discussed it on post #31

I am not sure you did–unless your contention is that the only thing they need is money. You say “Christ in the New Testament acknowledges and affirms the poor and their needs time and time again.” No one here has questioned that and no one here has said one shouldn’t help the poor. What has been questioned is whether in every situation giving someone money–is really providing what they need. Our goal is to meet their needs is it not? Or is your goal different? Is it your contention that we shouldn’t worry about what those needs are–that we should just give them what we want or what they want–is that the way Christ operates–he just answers our prayers by giving us what we ask for–I thought sometimes the answer was no because it is not what we needed at that time?

How is it that saying we should look for the best way to help the poor seems to be translated by some as saying we despise the poor and that we shouldn’t help them? What posts here are bent on destroying a Christ centered work of charity?
Really suggesting that we should help at homeless shelters, serve at soup kitchens, donate food, clothing, money and time to such organizations as well as to organizations that provide other needed services to the poor and homeless–is being a homeless hater?
Suggesting that that might be a better way to help makes one a homeless hater and a destroyer of a Christ centered work of Charity? I don’t think so.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[HollyDolly]

I can understand where the father was coming from,but i also understand you’re view point.
There are epole who are homeless such as families or even individuals through mistake sthey made (money wise) or through forces beyond themselves. You might have a family where the husband gets laid off, and the wife works. They may have been getting along all right,but because the comany downsized or the jobs moved to China or heaven nows where, he and others are laid off.The person is busy looking for a job in their related field or even slinging burgers at MCDonald’s or whereever but can’t get hired because of what they did before. They figure this guy or gal maybe made from 40 to say 60 grand a year as a salary and they don’t what to hire them because they might want a big salary or for whatever reason. Then maybe were the wife works the new company head decides to cut corners and she gets laid off as well.There’s all sorts of factors invovled.
You might look up Haven for Hope in San Antonio.They help the homeless including families as does SAMMS Ministries.
For those homeless who do want to work,I think there has to be a way that they can get calls from employers who call them for an interview or tell them they want to hire them,
if these people are staying at the shelter. If I was running such a place I would take those calls and give them to the person. It’s a chance for them to finally get ahead.If they get hired then that frees up a bed for somebody else.
There used to be places for lower income men and women to stay who were working, the old hotels like you see in the old film noir movies and old police shows.
Instead of renovating places for expensive apartments, which not make some of them a place for these people to live until they can maybe find better living quarters…
Me, if I don’t pay my property taxes don’t have a home so I have to pay it.
If I ever lost my home,have to live in my car with the cats which would suck.

 

[WilT]

WilT;12539281:

I am not sure you did–unless your contention is that the only thing they need is money. You say “Christ in the New Testament acknowledges and affirms the poor and their needs time and time again.” No one here has questioned that and no one here has said one shouldn’t help the poor. What has been questioned is whether in every situation giving someone money–is really providing what they need. Our goal is to meet their needs is it not? Or is your goal different? Is it your contention that we shouldn’t worry about what those needs are–that we should just give them what we want or what they want–is that the way Christ operates–he just answers our prayers by giving us what we ask for–I thought sometimes the answer was no because it is not what we needed at that time?
The peace of Christ,
Mark

Ye of little faith. Yes, Christ asks us to pray for what we need. Is it your contention **that you decide **the homeless person’s need? Pretty patronizing and arrogant on your part.

 

[jmcrae]

MarkInOregon;12541564:

Ye of little faith. Yes, Christ asks us to pray for what we need. Is it your contention **that you decide **

the homeless person’s need? Pretty patronizing and arrogant on your part.

If you’re just flinging money out the car window at people, how can you really know what they need? We, after all, don’t have the mind-reading capabilities that Jesus has.

It takes several sit-down conversations with someone before you can really know them well enough to understand what they need, and then figure out how to meet the need.

That’ why there are professionals who do this for a living, and why we give our money to them.

 

[WilT]

WilT;12564117:

…
It takes several sit-down conversations with someone before you can really know them well enough to understand what they need, and then figure out how to meet the need…

…

It’s not really that hard. It takes four words: What do you need! It may take you to move away from the comfort of your car and go outside and talk with them.

 

[jmcrae]

It’s not really that hard. It takes four words: What do you need! It may take you to move away from the comfort of your car and go outside and talk with them.

And they’re going to tell a random stranger all their problems? (Would you?) No - they’ll just ask for the easiest thing - money - and hope there’s enough money at the end of the day to make their problems (lack of marketable skills, lack of network support, mental illness, etc.) go away.

To get to the root of the problem - what put them on the streets in the first place - takes longer conversations than that.

So far I have never heard of anyone being miraculously saved from the streets by someone throwing a pile of spare change at them.

 

[WilT]

And they’re going to tell a random stranger all their problems? (Would you?) No - they’ll just ask for the easiest thing - money - and hope there’s enough money at the end of the day to make their problems (lack of marketable skills, lack of network support, mental illness, etc.) go away.

To get to the root of the problem - what put them on the streets in the first place - takes longer conversations than that.

So far I have never heard of anyone being miraculously saved from the streets by someone throwing a pile of spare change at them.

seems like your issue is lacking of kindness towards them.

 

[jmcrae]

seems like your issue is lacking of kindness towards them.

Quite the opposite. I’ve just completed a 2-year project to help 6 homeless youth get job skills. “Kindness” isn’t about a one-time encounter. It’s about meeting with them every week, month after month, until they succeed. (All six of ours are working full time with a living wage and prospects of advancement, and living independently in homes of their own right now, which is why the project is done.)

 

[WilT]

Quite the opposite. I’ve just completed a 2-year project to help 6 homeless youth get job skills. “Kindness” isn’t about a one-time encounter. It’s about meeting with them every week, month after month, until they succeed. (All six of ours are working full time with a living wage and prospects of advancement, and living independently in homes of their own right now, which is why the project is done.)

It still doesn’t answer my Q. How do you show them kindness? By giving them job? That it?

 

[InstrofHisPeace]

I once worked right in the center of downtown in a large US city. Beggars were everywhere - wheelchairs, signs, shabby clothes, jangling cups, all that. They were most visible, it seemed, at lunchtime and before/after regular business hours. How could anyone turn a cold eye and walk past all that poverty? How can one know if a person is legitimately in need? And who of us can rightly judge that legitimacy?

Unfortunately, some of them became aggressive and scary. Then, there was the news about a man who had refused a beggar and got stabbed. We were advised (I believe by the police department via the security personnel in our building) that we should not give directly to the beggars, but to the mission houses instead.

I worry about posting this because, obviously, while not all those “in need” truly are, those that are don’t live structured lives. So getting themselves to a mission at the moment they need money may be a ridiculous thing to expect of them. And how humiliating it must be to have to justify to someone your sad situation in exchange for a buck. Cash money, given on the spot, is still the most liquid asset we can offer to someone in need (whatever that need might be). Although, I do like posters’ suggestions to simply ask, What do you need?

As far as the OP goes, I have to ask: Doesn’t a priest’s first responsibility go toward his parish? Maybe their safety in this case? I’m sure that he is aware of how charitable acts are performed in structured manner as with the myriad works the Catholic Church does (and has done) to serve humanity in so many ways throughout the years and throughout the world.

Nevertheless, I can respect the OP’s discomfort with this. (Matthew 25:35-40)

Alas, I am not an expert on any of this. I cannot look into anyone’s mind or heart - the priest, the OP, or anyone who gives or receives. I can only ask: What would Jesus do? Okay, Jesus would know their heart. So, what would Mother Theresa do? Hmm, I’m really warming up to the idea of simply asking what is needed.

God bless~

 

[estesbob]

Quite the opposite. I’ve just completed a 2-year project to help 6 homeless youth get job skills. “Kindness” isn’t about a one-time encounter. It’s about meeting with them every week, month after month, until they succeed. (All six of ours are working full time with a living wage and prospects of advancement, and living independently in homes of their own right now, which is why the project is done.)

I am under no illusion that giving someone $20 is going to solve their problem.It will, however, bring a little joy into their life.

 

[jmcrae]

It still doesn’t answer my Q. How do you show them kindness? By giving them job? That it?

Not just “giving” them a job, but training them in the practical skills they need, and inculcating good attitudes and good work habits so that they can keep the job, and move up in the organization, and so that they can get good references when they’re ready to move on to bigger and better things.

It means developing a relationship with them, and giving them strong ground to stand on - the security of knowing that you’re always there for them - while they reach for their goals.

 

[Tigg]

And they’re going to tell a random stranger all their problems? (Would you?) No - they’ll just ask for the easiest thing - money - and hope there’s enough money at the end of the day to make their problems (lack of marketable skills, lack of network support, mental illness, etc.) go away.

To get to the root of the problem - what put them on the streets in the first place - takes longer conversations than that.

So far I have never heard of anyone being miraculously saved from the streets by someone throwing a pile of spare change at them.

I see you’ve already been accused of being unkind, but I agree with you and find it increasingly frustrating that this complex problem is only approached on the level of emotion. Do we really want to help them or are we content to perpetuate the problem.

I copied this from a recent Catholic article I read. If we could ponder some of the deeper aspects, maybe we could truly help the “bums” become "saints.

Satan can take the beautiful love for the poor and corrupt it into an enslaving paternalism that locks them into dependency, or does not address their spiritual needs by speaking to them respectfully of their sins, or does not seek to deepen their spiritual and family lives. And thus the beautiful corporal works of mercy are either set at odds with the spiritual works of mercy or are considered adequate in themselves. Satan can send many to serve the poor, armed with half-truths and approaches that merely bandage deeper wounds without addressing them.

 

[estesbob]

I see you’ve already been accused of being unkind, but I agree with you and find it increasingly frustrating that this complex problem is only approached on the level of emotion. Do we really want to help them or are we content to perpetuate the problem.

I copied this from a recent Catholic article I read. If we could ponder some of the deeper aspects, maybe we could truly help the “bums” become "saints.

Why cant we give money to beggars and look for long term solutions? They are not mutually exclusive