Bush: U.S. Had Hand in European Divisions

[gilliam]

gnjsdad:

Then, as we like to say in America, 9/11 changed everything; most of all, President Bush. I believe he believes he has been called by God to remake the world in America’s image. I believe he sees himself as a modern day Churchill, doing God’s work by leading God’s country. In the President’s mind, America always equals good, and anybody who doesn’t see it that way is evil, or potentially evil
*(Either you are with us or you are with the terrorists). *

I don’t see that he thinks that every county needs to look like America. In fact, he has said countries will not look like us and we need to realize that. Freedom and democracy don’t have the same face everywhere. And the phrase “either you are with us or you are with the terrorists” has nothing to do with “Americal always equals good and anyone who doesn’t see it that way is evil”.

Sorry, the logic simply is not there. The fight against terrorism where you are with us against the terrorists or you are for the terrorists is simply stating the fact that this is a global war, and everyone has to play on one side or another. There really is not neutral ground here. Not for any country. Neutrality simply states you are protecting the terrorists. Can you imagine the Vatican allowing the terrorists to set up a safe refuge in Vatican City? We need to have at least a little common sense here, please.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

I can see from my inbox there are several posts connected to this thread since I posted. Just at this time, I do not have time to stay in touch with The Board…I’ll be absent probably for about 48hrs. or so…after which I will catch up with the thread certainly since I posted. Interesting thread and I know I have made some contraversial comments…and I hope to be either affirmed, enlightened or corrected.

Cacha in about 48hrs. or so! smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/7/7_6_6v.gif

Fraternal regards smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/981.gif , Barb, South Australia
Bethany Place
Mon.9.5.05 5.43pm
The little green cross is a Celtic Cross…I ALWAYS wear a blessed sterling silver celtic cross on a leather thong around my neck, no matter how the Romans may be dressing and I complying.

 

[Cubsfan]

Philip P:

You don’t think the fact that the Red Army was occupying these countries had anything to do with it? From a level of morality and values, it’s certainly true that these nations should not have been abandoned, but practically speaking, how exactly were the US and UK supposed to expel the Soviets? Could it have been done without immediately going to war against the USSR? If not, are you saying that we should, in fact, have immediately gone to war against Stalin? Were we even in a position to fight that war?

U.S. Forces were poised to race across Europe but were held back because of political agreements made by Roosevelt at Yalta. The carange at the siege of Berlin might have been averted had it been a U.S./ British army that approached the city. It was clear that at the end of the war German Generals kept the war going so as to ensure that as many troops as possible could get to the west to surrender. No one in thier right mind wanted to surrender to the Soviets. Had the Americans been able to at least partially occupy Hungary or Poland might have made all of the difference in their governance. Also, why were the Baltic states which were sovereign nations before the war given wholly to Stalin without as much as a simple protest?

Roosevelt made all of these concessions because he wanted the Russians to join the war against Japan, this is an error we still are paying for (can you say North Korean Nukes).

The errors of Yalta were then magnified by the fact that Harry Truman became President. I believe that Truman was overmatched and unworthy of the office of the presidency and was unable to put Stalin in his place.

 

[Richardols]

David_Paul:

Some who did were freed from the camps only to be used by Stalin as fodder to slow down the Nazi invasion.

Not quite. A large number of Poles formed the 1st Polish Army, which went with the Red Army to Berlin. The 2nd Polish Army, also formed by the Soviets, defeated the Germans sent to aid beseiged Berlin. Others freed by Stalin went through Iran and formed the II Corps, fought in Italy and beat the Germans at the Battle of Monte Cassino. Other Polish units fought in France and the low countries.

By the end of the war, the Polish Army was the fourth largest army that fought, after those of the Soviet Union, the U.S.A. and the British Commonwealth.

The Poles were anything but cannon fodder!

 

[wabrams]

gilliam:

Sorry, the logic simply is not there. The fight against terrorism where you are with us against the terrorists or you are for the terrorists is simply stating the fact that this is a global war, and everyone has to play on one side or another. There really is not neutral ground here. Not for any country. Neutrality simply states you are protecting the terrorists. Can you imagine the Vatican allowing the terrorists to set up a safe refuge in Vatican City?

gilliam:

We need to have at least a little common sense here, please.

The paragraph of yours I quoted smacks in the face of the last sentence you typed. The whole “war on terrorism” is boiled down to terrorist are against democracy; I mean, that’s what we’ve been told for 3 1/2 years. So, if you don’t join the US, then you must be against Democracy. Maybe a good chunk of the world could really careless about our global war on terrorism.

 

[gnjsdad]

What questions?

Scroll up to post # 18

aimee:

Come on now…there is no way you believe what you posted…at least not completely…

Now if you don’t believe I believe what I post, why would you believe what I post? Taking someone at their word is basic to elementary Christian dialogue. You assume my real motives are not apparent from what I say. Your statement bespeaks a Marxist approach to epistemology which is not helpful here.

aimee:

BTW…what country are you from?

Now why would you believe me given your obvious unwillingnesss to believe what I say? However, I do have an obligation in charity to be truthful so, I’m an American.

 

[JW10631]

Bush was right to do what he did.

I don’t give a rat’s rear end if it offended Putin. Modern Russia needs to be reminded of what the USSR did to its neighbors.

No people spilled more blood to defeat the Nazis than the Russian people. What made it worse is that the disgusting and terrible Stalin decided to carve up Europe with Hitler. Stalin caused the suffering of the Russian people just as much as Hitler. Bush did nothing to demean the sacrifice of the Russian people or downplay their efforts. Bush pointed out that the USSR was permitted to occupy nations that were once free and independent and enslave them for almost 50 years - in the case of Ukraine, much longer.

FDR and Truman were both weak. There are a lot of people who admire FDR. I despise his legacy. That dying old fool wanted to cut a deal with the same Stalin who was Hitler’s collaborator in empire grabbing and mass murder. Stalin never had any intention of helping to defeat Japan.

The USA had the Bomb. Truman could have threatened Stalin. He didn’t do it.

The USA was in Czechoslovakia and withdrew to allow the Red Army to move in.

So Bush annoyed Putin. So be it. Putin stuck his nose in Ukraine, the neighbors Russia can’t stop bothering. Putin wants to continue selling nuclear technology to Iran.

Some friend. Bush should have done more than talk about Yalta. He should have slapped Putin.

 

[Richardols]

JW10631:

.The USA had the Bomb. Truman could have threatened Stalin. He didn’t do it.

He couldn’t threaten Stalin. What would he bomb? A country already devastated by the Nazis? What soldiers would he use to follow up on a nuclear attack? Americans wanted their men home, and they wanted them home NOW. See how rapid our demobilization after WWII was. Americans would have supported no more war, especially against a country that had been an ally and that had suffered as much as the Soviet Union did.

So Bush annoyed Putin. So be it. Putin stuck his nose in Ukraine,

Sure, turn about is fair play. Bush annoyed the world by sticking his nose in Iraq. Now it was his turn to chide those others.

 

[swampfox]

Richardols:

Not quite. A large number of Poles formed the 1st Polish Army, which went with the Red Army to Berlin. The 2nd Polish Army, also formed by the Soviets, defeated the Germans sent to aid beseiged Berlin. Others freed by Stalin went through Iran and formed the II Corps, fought in Italy and beat the Germans at the Battle of Monte Cassino. Other Polish units fought in France and the low countries.

By the end of the war, the Polish Army was the fourth largest army that fought, after those of the Soviet Union, the U.S.A. and the British Commonwealth.

The Poles were anything but cannon fodder!

The Polish units, which were made up of men who had been enslaved by the Soviets during the early war years when the Soviets allied with the Nazis invaded Poland, were freed from forced labor camps only after Hitler attacked his former ally, Stalin. “Freed by Stalin” seems to omit a lot of history and context. Of course, Stalin’s troops also stood idly by while the Germans crushed the Warsaw Uprising by patriotic antiCommunist Poles.

 

[JW10631]

Richardols:

He couldn’t threaten Stalin. What would he bomb? A country already devastated by the Nazis? What soldiers would he use to follow up on a nuclear attack? Americans wanted their men home, and they wanted them home NOW. See how rapid our demobilization after WWII was. Americans would have supported no more war, especially against a country that had been an ally and that had suffered as much as the Soviet Union did.

Sure, turn about is fair play. Bush annoyed the world by sticking his nose in Iraq. Now it was his turn to chide those others.

Leave it to YOU to make apologies for those that abandoned Eastern Europe - and those who enslaved it.

Of course, on another thread, you were wasting bandwidth paying lip service to Gary Trudeau.

You missed the entire point. Patton could have taken Berlin. The US could have taken much of Eastern Europe before the Red Army ever got there.
As for threatening Stalin - a bomb threat on Moscow could well have done the thrick, seeing what happened to Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Nobody wanted more armed battle. Roosevelt thought he could get Stalin to help against Japan. Yeah, right.

 

[Cubsfan]

JW10631:

Leave it to YOU to make apologies for those that abandoned Eastern Europe - and those who enslaved it.

Of course, on another thread, you were wasting bandwidth paying lip service to Gary Trudeau.

You missed the entire point. Patton could have taken Berlin. The US could have taken much of Eastern Europe before the Red Army ever got there.
As for threatening Stalin - a bomb threat on Moscow could well have done the thrick, seeing what happened to Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Nobody wanted more armed battle. Roosevelt thought he could get Stalin to help against Japan. Yeah, right.

Rooseelt and Truman get alot of attaboys that they do not deserve because of how they allowed the war to end. Remember that Roosevelt had his dream of a United Nations and that was more important to him than the people of Eastern Europe. Don’t forget this was the president who refused a ship full of Jews refuge in the US despite his knowledge of what was going on in Europe. The same group of historians who like to make up stuff about Pius XII always conveniently overlook what Roosevelt did and did not do.

 

[Richardols]

swampfox:

The Polish units, which were made up of men who had been enslaved by the Soviets during the early war years when the Soviets allied with the Nazis invaded Poland, were freed from forced labor camps only after Hitler attacked his former ally, Stalin.

Imprisoned, rather than enslaved, was more like it.

“Freed by Stalin” seems to omit a lot of history and context.

Okay. “Released by Stalin.” Do you feel better now?

Of course, Stalin’s troops also stood idly by while the Germans crushed the Warsaw Uprising by patriotic antiCommunist Poles.

By patriotic Poles. Not all were anti-communist.

 

[Richardols]

JW10631:

You missed the entire point. Patton could have taken Berlin. The US could have taken much of Eastern Europe before the Red Army ever got there.

UTTER NONSENSE. Before the Red Army ever got there? They were as far west as Warsaw before the Americans landed in France, and were into Germany shortly thereafter.

As for threatening Stalin - a bomb threat on Moscow could well have done the thrick, seeing what happened to Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Nobody wanted more armed battle.

Dream on.

 

[Richardols]

JW10631:

Leave it to YOU to make apologies for those that abandoned Eastern Europe - and those who enslaved it.

Apologies? Just the facts. The back of the German Army was broken in Russia, not France. The Soviets took the greatest casualties of any army in the war, and also inflicted more casualties on the Nazis than any other of the Allies did… Give credit where credit is due.

 

[David_Paul]

Richardols:

Imprisoned, rather than enslaved, was more like it

My girlfriend’s father was in those camps. They were slave labor camps. He had been a teacher in Poland. Her mother’s first husband had been an officer in the Polish army. Three months after their marriage, he was taken and shot in the Katyn Forest.

Stalin and Kaganovich did not put over one million Polish Catholics on cattle cars and ship them to the USSR just to feed and house they. They worked. Until they died or were released to fight the Nazis.

You sound like The Nation magazine which declared in the late 1940s that there were no slave labor camps in the Soviet block because slavery could only exist in capitalist countries.

The White Sea Canal was a slave labor project. Kolyma, which is the size of France, was a slave labor camp. The Czech uraninum mines (Vojna, Jáchymov) were not sitting idle when political prisoners were sent there.

In the early days, Trotsky drafted factory workers. They too were slave laborers. Work for the communist or be murdered. That was the program from 1918 until the death of Stalin (and, in some areas, after Stalin’s death).

The only substantial difference between Nazi and Communist slave labor camps is the Soviets had more of them and they lasted longer.

 

[Richardols]

David_Paul:

My girlfriend’s father was in those camps. They were slave labor camps. He had been a teacher in Poland. Her mother’s first husband had been an officer in the Polish army. Three months after their marriage, he was taken and shot in the Katyn Forest.

My uncle’s brother-in-law, Leon Furrs, was one of those Polish soldiers imprisoned by Stalin at the beginning of the war. He said that conditions were terrible, but he was one of those who was released to go west and became part of Gen. Anders’s II Corps. He fought and was wounded at Monte Cassino, ending the war in northern Italy.

Different groups of soldiers had different experiences. Some were murdered, as you described, some survived to fight with the 1st and 2nd Polish Armies, some to fight with the II Corps.

Stalin and Kaganovich did not put over one million Polish Catholics on cattle cars and ship them to the USSR just to feed and house they. They worked. Until they died or were released to fight the Nazis.

Polish Catholics? No Orthodox Poles, no Lutheran Poles?

The only substantial difference between Nazi and Communist slave labor camps is the Soviets had more of them and they lasted longer.

Yes, indeed.

 

[JW10631]

Richardols:

Apologies? Just the facts. The back of the German Army was broken in Russia, not France. The Soviets took the greatest casualties of any army in the war, and also inflicted more casualties on the Nazis than any other of the Allies did… Give credit where credit is due.

I never said the Russian Army didn’t deserve credit.

What you have trouble coming to grips with is that Roosevelt and Truman abandoned Eastern Europe to Stalin. The Bomb made Japan surrender. Stalin didn’t have it.

As for dreaming - that’s what you do when you praise Garry Trudeau.

 

[Cubsfan]

Richardols:

By patriotic Poles. Not all were anti-communist.

Since Poland had been the victim of partition in the 18th Century they had little or no love for the Russians who had done everything that they could to obliterate Polish Culture. There may have been some wrong headed Poles in the uprising that were communists but I doubt that they wanted to be dominated by the near satanic government of the Soviet Union.

 

[Cubsfan]

Richardols:

Apologies? Just the facts. The back of the German Army was broken in Russia, not France. The Soviets took the greatest casualties of any army in the war, and also inflicted more casualties on the Nazis than any other of the Allies did… Give credit where credit is due.

Ole Uncle Joe reaped the fruits of his labor; he made a pact with Hitler and criminally attacked Poland. He was the one that purged his officer corps so badly that when attacked by the Germans they were nearly defeated. Stalin was the one who ordered a senseless defense of Stalingrad that wasted many troops who had they merely fallen back and regrouped could have been used to drive the Germans from their soil.

 

[judicame]

gilliam:

Barb,

President Bush has been very clear where he is and where he is going:

We are led, by events and common sense, to one conclusion: The survival of liberty in our land increasingly depends on the success of liberty in other lands. The best hope for peace in our world is the expansion of freedom in all the world…] :yawn:

Does David Frum still write Bush’s speeches or has Mr Frum been promoted to a more central role in Israel now?

It looks like he just cribbed this off a lolly stick. Even more likely, the CIA have got a computer programme (nick-named Simpleton perhaps) that produces this rubbish. Just feed in the variables du jour.

https://notfound.typepad.com

George Bush. A precocious talent.