Cafeteria Catholicism

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Feanaro's Wife:
You are not a slave to Catholicism, you have the free will to make the choice to leave it if you wish. Just as I exercised my free will to leave the faith I was baptized into.

The Pope and Magesterium do not equal God, I agree. But they are representatives of Him and act to see that His will is done. Do you know much about the Holy Spirit? Incredible, to say the least.

And I fully questioned the Catholic faith (for about 5 years), before I decided that it was indeed the Truth and it was where God was leading me. To not question would be foolish, I agree, again. No one should just “swallow what they are told” and take the “easy way out”. That would be very lazy and foolish indeed.

As for a split in the future, it is already here. As far as the Catholic Church can be split, anyway. The split is in people who want to see their own will imposed instead of practicing the virtues of obedience and humility.

But the Church can never truly “split”. It is promised that the Church will endure until the end of days… if it doesn’t, then none of this matters because it would prove that the Church is not what it is supposed to be and would be false anyway.

Yes there are some who think the Church already split when they “ditched the latin mass”. But do you see the common thread here? Human opinion.
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The Church has never, and will never change her teachings on faith and morals. It is not possible. The Pope and the Magesterium are guardians of that Truth. They are not the creators so they have no power to change it.

If you are indeed a “thinking Catholic” as you claim, I do hope that you will expand your knowledge of our beautiful faith and pray for the wisdom and understanding to accept it fully, as God wills.

Peace to you mumto5. I will add you to my prayers,

Malia
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Thank you for your prayers 🙂

Truth be told, while using the term ‘cafeteria Catholic’ I see myself more as a struggling Catholic. I did indeed leave the church when I was 15 to follow what I saw was a more Biblical way. It wasn’t altogether a bad thing. I learned a lot about the Bible. As I say, I have tried to understand some teachings I just can’t get to grips with and I know that my own poor catechesis does show through when I try to teach my own children. There is such a thing as ‘invincible ignorance’ and if this is in fact a real condition, I believe I do indeed have this because try and learn about it as I might, I just can’t accept some things. Sometimes I do wonder why I bother but I figure that I am a work in progress and if I am going to be convinced of these things, I will be in God’s own time.

I’d like to suggest that some people spend more time worrying about the log in their eye as opposed to the splinter in their brothers. I think sincerity of heart counts for a lot more than blindly following something because it’s easier than having to think about it.
 
All I can say is that I pray for those who so feel so confident in God’s love and mercy to pick and choose which teachings to conveniently obey.

God should be placed first, not our personal desires or beliefs.

Truth is a like a compass. The needle points north and this is where Jesus points and tells us to go. Some follow the compass - over hills, through valleys, and rough terrain. Others profess to be traveling north going E, W, or S, bending the compass needle in a self-deceptive manner, convincing themselves that they actually heading north.

Jesus said the path was narrow, not wide. How sad it is to the Lord when his children widen the path so that sacrifice is not necessary - sacrifice of their will over that which is pleasing to God.

Truth is black or white, but not shades of grey. Relativism opposes truth. Jesus never taught situational spirituality, where each person can altar the rules for their personal situation. When Jesus told Mary Magdalene to sin no more, she could have later reasoned that using the apetites God gave her for sex, made her feel whole and good. She could have further reasoned that it made the men who came to her feel whole and good, after all, God gave humans these apetites to begin with, so why not take pleasure in them? She could have said to herself, “he loves me and he will save me” and continued on about her “business”. She made the sacrifice associated with obedience.

God’s word is not situational, the path cannot be widened, and the compass needle cannot be bent. To follow such foolish ways is to test the Lord God. His love and mercy are plenty, but so is His justice.

Call yourselves what you want, but God sees all and knows all that is in the heart. Maybe you wish not to follow the teachings of the Church instituted by Christ and guided by the Holy Spirit. When we die and meet our Maker, it is far better to have lived a life of self-sacrifice, self-denial, and assent to teachings that we don’t care for than to live a life of self-service, self-affirmation, and dissent.

God Bless and prayers
 
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Lux_et_veritas:
1) Know
2) Obey
3) Understand

And, in that order.

:blessyou:
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Could you please tell me where it says this in the Bible? I think David Koresh would have expressed similar sentiments…
 
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Lux_et_veritas:
Jesus said the path was narrow, not wide. How sad it is to the Lord when his children widen the path so that sacrifice is not necessary - sacrifice of their will over that which is pleasing to God.

Call yourselves what you want, but God sees all and knows all that is in the heart.

God Bless and prayers
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Excuse me but I almost DIED following church teaching. Now I am making more sacrifices for the benefit of my family by not having more children when I would like to. My whole life is lived in service to the needs of others.

BTW - before I had more third child I was visited and asked to have him. I was given a lot of details about him and why he was to come to us. I was also told at the time that after this I was not required to have any more children but that I did have the choice if I so chose. So I am quite at peace with what God’s will is for me with my children thank you.

Further, when I almost died and had a near-death experience having my last baby, I assure you the place I saw was not hell.
 
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mumto5:
Could you please tell me where it says this in the Bible? I think David Koresh would have expressed similar sentiments…
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I’m sorry, I thought this was the Catholic Church we were talking about, not some Christian denomination that relies strictly on the Bible.

As to your question about the Know, Obey, and Understand, please watch the “Ask an Apologist” for a thread I am posting to them. I am willing to let it undergo their scrutiny as to alignment with church teaching.

I am sorry to hear about your experience with your last child and it is most unfortunate. However, there are alternatives that allow the unitive end of the marriage act to be fulfilled, while not introducing pregnancy.

I may not be able to respond for a time as I may be away, so do watch that thread in the Apologist section.
 
My youngest brother, the 6th in our family, must certainly be glad my mom’s birth control attempts failed. I know I am.

CARose

And I have also found that by first accepting the teaching, obeying, I have frequently then found the understanding. Strange but true.
 
Island Oak:
Second, and related to the point above, Catholicism is as much a culture as it is a faith.

That may be how it feels to a cradle Catholic, but it is not actually what it is.

Nowhere in the catechism or other Church documents have I found anything to support this view. Everything one needs to believe about our faith can be found in one of the creeds. Do you profess your faith at Mass? If you do, do you just leave out those parts you personally disagree with and then go and receive our Lord’s precious Body and Blood? Do you think that pleases Him?

We share with our Catholic sisters and brothers common traditions, educational experiences, life milestones, leaders/mentors and, of course, values. The discrepancy over some issues does not break the bonds that permeate our very being.

So what do you think then of Catholic politicians with the same view as you when they do not follow Church teaching but continue to call themselves “faithful Catholics”? Is it ok because it is part of their very being, or is it scandalous?

Finally, for many of us the conflict with absolute Church teachings on sexuality and contraception arise directly from the absence of (name removed by moderator)ut on the subject from Jesus himself.

Our faith is one founded by Jesus Himself. If one believes what Jesus *did *say cleary (that he was handing power of the Church over to the apostles and their successors ) then they must also believe that the Church’s teachings on matters of faith and morals are equally true.

It is one of those issues on which the omission speaks as loudly as directives which were verbalized clearly. While we recognize and in many other ways defer to Church teachings to discern truth and reveal God’s plan, there are many of us who struggle with sincere hearts, not a misdirected sense of self-importance or pride, over the issues surrounding human sexuality.

There are so many works that go into detail about such issues. “Theology of the Body” is a great place to start. “Good News About Sex and Marriage” is excellent.

Can you please explain “struggling with a sincere heart”? To me, that would be someone who yearns to understand Christ’s teachings, but for whatever reason, just can’t get it… but they will obey them anyway, even without understanding (which is not necessary) until they can finally “get it”.

I am truly seeking to understand your position and that of those who feel as you do. Please do not read any malice into my questioning, that is not my intention at all.

Malia
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CARose:
My youngest brother, the 6th in our family, must certainly be glad my mom’s birth control attempts failed. I know I am.

CARose

And I have also found that by first accepting the teaching, obeying, I have frequently then found the understanding. Strange but true.
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I’m glad too or I wouldn’t have my husband. Just goes to show that where God really wants a child to be born, it will be. Baby #5 of mine was an NFP failure - and I wouldn’t be without her for anything!
 
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Lux_et_veritas:
I’m sorry, I thought this was the Catholic Church we were talking about, not some Christian denomination that relies strictly on the Bible.

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Yes, I will watch out for it.

As far as Bible teaching goes - to me the Catechism is only good where it is in harmony with the teaching of the Bible. The Bible is the foremost authority where everything else has to be measured by. Otherwise we may as well look to the Book of Mormon.

Sadly, most Catholics have no idea about what is in the Bible outside of the Gospels. Makes it hard to discuss topics I’d love to have a heart to heart on with a Catholic and I am disappointed that this is the case.

And don’t tell me to talk to a priest. I’ve talked to 6 of them and five said we should use birth control.
 
My question for CCs is: How many beliefs of the Church can I reject and still consider myself Catholic? Or is there no limit?
Just curious.
 
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Lux_et_veritas:
All I can say is that I pray for those who so feel so confident in God’s love and mercy to pick and choose which teachings to conveniently obey.
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I used to be a CC, and like mumto5, I sought outside of the Church in my teens and early twenties before being drawn back to the Church.

But when we pick and chose which teachings we follow, what’s stopping the rest of the world?

Why must we hold them to the commandments? (Thou shall not kill…)

Why must they expected to be merciful? (Turn the other cheek…)

Why be at peace with one another? (Love your neighbour…)

If we pick and choose, then there is no authority. We are the Church, Christ’s Church, and we must follow her teachings. Fully and completely. Otherwise, we’re not Catholic.
 
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mumto5:
Yes, I will watch out for it.

As far as Bible teaching goes - to me the Catechism is only good where it is in harmony with the teaching of the Bible. The Bible is the foremost authority where everything else has to be measured by. Otherwise we may as well look to the Book of Mormon.

Sadly, most Catholics have no idea about what is in the Bible outside of the Gospels. Makes it hard to discuss topics I’d love to have a heart to heart on with a Catholic and I am disappointed that this is the case.

And don’t tell me to talk to a priest. I’ve talked to 6 of them and five said we should use birth control.
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Hate to tell you mum, but the Catholic Church is not sola scriptura… I used to think like that too.

What sola scriptura doesn’t realize is that the BIBLE is based on tradition. (How do you think the books got there is the first place). Many of their concepts are tradition, without them ever realizing it.

I fail to believe that God stopped speaking to humanity on the last pages of Revelation… otherwise your “vision” of your unborn child would never have happened. The truth of the Trinity would never have been born. The Bible itself would not exist.

Christianity would not exist.
 
Feanaro's Wife:
Malia:

You raise some excellent questions…ones which I struggle with daily. In no way did I take your inquiry as offensive, I am familiar with your posts and often agree with you and admire the way in which you approach others with such generosity of spirit.

I will spare you and the rest of the board a painstaking response and simply say that I sincerely wrestle with some of the issues addressed in this thread. On occasions when I encounter hypocrites who choose to mock their brothers and sisters struggling with their Catholic faith with epithets like “cafeteria” I try to shrug it off, knowing that no one who pursues this faith does so in perfect obedience. We all have our stumbling blocks-I’m simply being honest about mine–not proud, nor defiant. I truly believe God has a plan for each of us he calls and is always working on our hearts. Perhaps that is one of the reasons I have been drawn here. Who knows…In any event, I continually pray for insight, an open heart and mind and the humility to accept even the truths that challenge me the most.
 
Thank you Island Oak for responding so charitably to my post. I really appreciate it. I find myself agreeing with many of your posts as well.

I understand the concept of struggling very well. I know that there is no such thing as a perfect Catholic, and know that I am very far from perfection myself.

I pray that you find the understanding you are seeking.

Malia
 
From the CCC:

Who belongs to the Catholic Church?
The Creeds 2 836

“All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God… And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation.”[320]

The Creeds 2 837

"Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops.

Even though incorporated into the Church, **one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not ‘in heart.’"**321]

I am trying to find a Church document that clearly states that we must believe in the teachings of the Church, that we are not free to pick and choose according to our own will but must be obedient. This comes close, but I will continue my search so that I can hopefully provide evidence of the necessity of obedience to the Church
Malia
 
Island Oak:
Malia:

…On occasions when I encounter hypocrites who choose to mock their brothers and sisters struggling with their Catholic faith with epithets like “cafeteria” I try to shrug it off, knowing that no one who pursues this faith does so in perfect obedience. We all have our stumbling blocks-I’m simply being honest about mine–not proud, nor defiant. I truly believe God has a plan for each of us he calls and is always working on our hearts. Perhaps that is one of the reasons I have been drawn here. Who knows…In any event, I continually pray for insight, an open heart and mind and the humility to accept even the truths that challenge me the most.
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I would not classify one who struggles with the faith a dissenter nor a cafeteria catholic. To me, the term Cafeteria Catholic refers to someone who knows a teaching and decides that it doesn’t suit them so they move ahead without that particular teaching, rather boastfully I might add.

Maybe some of the arguments in this thread is surrounding the definition of the term. Maybe it means different things to different people.

However, when I have struggled with a teaching (and I have), I usually keep it to myself so as not to create dissent among others as I work through it. I even labeled myself a Cafeteria Catholic and finally confessed blatant disobedience to that particular teaching when I finally reconciled with the fact that assent was not a choice, but a necessity. I had to sacrifice something in order to follow it. While there are exceptions, I believe the vast majority of those who blatantly disobey are doing so out of convenience. They take the easy path instead of the hard road.
 
Feanaro's Wife:
From the CCC:

Who belongs to the Catholic Church?
The Creeds2836

“All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God… And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation.”[320]

The Creeds2837

"Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops.

Even though incorporated into the Church, **one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not ‘in heart.’"**321]

I am trying to find a Church document that clearly states that we must believe in the teachings of the Church, that we are not free to pick and choose according to our own will but must be obedient. This comes close, but I will continue my search so that I can hopefully provide evidence of the necessity of obedience to the Church
Malia
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Lets hope the apologists will round up what is needed. Keep an eye on Ask an Apologist the next few days and hopefully, they wil come through and either state that my simple rule is aligned or misalgined with church teaching.
 
I. The Obedience of Faith

144 To obey (from the Latin ob-audire, to “hear or listen to”) in faith is to **submit **freely to the word that has been heard, because its truth is guaranteed by God, who is Truth itself. Abraham is the model of such obedience offered us by Sacred Scripture. the Virgin Mary is its most perfect embodiment.

To me, this is a perfect example of what is required of us as Catholics.

Of course, this requires that you trust in the CCC, which was given to us by the Church.

But I am assuming that all of us here actually believe that the Church is the Mystical Body of Christ here on earth and that Christ still speaks through it.

I sincerely pray for all of you who are seeking to understand that which Christ teaches.

:blessyou: Malia

Malia
 
22 Slaves, obey always your secular masters. Do not render them mere external service, as if you had only men to please. Perform your duties with sincerity of heart and with fear of God.
23 Whatever your task may be, carry it out heartily, as if you were doing it for the Lord and not for men

One of the most basic and repeated teachings of the Catholic Church in the pre-Civil War South. And yes, religious orders had slaves as well.

What happened to St. Paul’s teaching? Or is the Catholic Church in the US one big cafeteria since 1865?
 
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