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Ani_Ibi
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Al has a grudge.
Nothing to stop us from running with the ball. It may well be in a direction Al had not predicted and does not now like. Them’s the breaks, Al.
After Cain kills Abel, he becomes dissociative. He cannot ‘hear’ God. Cain feels like a stranger in a strange land – a nomad – but in fact he lives in a city and has his own family.
Abel would have been the true nomad because he was a herdsman.
Anyway I have been wondering how much of Cain is in the post-modern Catholic. Some of us, in the last election up here in Ontario, have been openly writing that, as Catholics, we are invisible, irrelevant, and marginalized in a province where Catholics are the largest religious group. In other words, we feel like strangers in a strange land. Does the Gospel not also warn us about attaching ourselves too firmly to a broken world?
Just asking. Thoughts anyone?
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SpiritMeadow
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Ani_Ibi
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Sorry? You don’t sound sorry.
What is ‘off topic’ about a response to a perfectly lucid, insightful, and legitimate interpretation of the Cain and Abel story?
For that matter what is ‘weird’ about it?
As for your questions, start another thread and I’ll answer them.
PS: The help forum or technical help forum or whatever it is called can help you to learn how to use the quote tags so that you don’t take up half a page posting a four-line statement. Ask and you shall receive. Cool eh?
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Benadam
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not really off topic. didn’t you recognize the Abel Gore connection?
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now that really is off topic**
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not really off topic. didn’t you recognize the Abel Gore connection?
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**ok I thought you might change your mind
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now that really is off topic**
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Benadam
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Linda_Marie
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The bible story of Cain and Abel is very short on details and we are left to speculate. There were, however, more stories, called the pseudepigrapha, about Adam and Eve and their children that were not included in the Bible. Although not inspired, they were known to the ancient Hebrews and they can offer insights and more details.
According to these stories, Cain apparently hated Abel from the beginning. In addition, he did not like putting God first in his life. When Adam would make an offering, frequently, Cain would refuse to accompany him. Abel, on the other hand, loved making offerings to God and urged Adam to offer more frequently. When the time came for them to make their own offerings, Abel gave his best, out of love for God. Cain resented having to make an offering at all and had to be berated by his father into making it and “when he did offer it up, his eye was on the offering he made”. He did not offer from his heart, but only because he was forced to and begrudged it.
The Forgotten Books of Eden
The First Book of Adam and Eve
sacred-texts.com/bib/fbe/index.htm#section_000
Chapter LVXXVII
sacred-texts.com/bib/fbe/fbe082.htm
According to these stories, Cain apparently hated Abel from the beginning. In addition, he did not like putting God first in his life. When Adam would make an offering, frequently, Cain would refuse to accompany him. Abel, on the other hand, loved making offerings to God and urged Adam to offer more frequently. When the time came for them to make their own offerings, Abel gave his best, out of love for God. Cain resented having to make an offering at all and had to be berated by his father into making it and “when he did offer it up, his eye was on the offering he made”. He did not offer from his heart, but only because he was forced to and begrudged it.
The Forgotten Books of Eden
The First Book of Adam and Eve
sacred-texts.com/bib/fbe/index.htm#section_000
Chapter LVXXVII
sacred-texts.com/bib/fbe/fbe082.htm
Then, in chapter LXXVIII
It was not the grain offering, or that he had to till the soil but that he hated and begrudged. He was hard-hearted and proud. God’s rejection of Cain’s offering had nothing to do with ‘tinkering’ but everything to do with the disposition of his heart.
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Benadam
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Benadam
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Thanks for the links Linda.
The text seems to describe Cain as a person who initiates the act of offering to God hoping for His approval. He was happy before it was rejected. I just don’t see Cain described as someone who is begrudgingly offering to God. The opposite seems the case since he esteemed God’s approval. Also the text describes Cain offering on his own initiative and may imply that Abel’s was a response to that. A begrudged offering isn’t something the biblical text reveals. If it does I don’t see it.
I deo see that Cain is well disposed to selfishness and hard heartedness. Why would Cain’s negative traits necessarily mean that his offering wasn’t rejected for being an expression of bad stewardship and a disordered use of God’s creation?
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DanteAlighieri
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An Ibi, I love your posts – they’re usually very insightful and eloquent. This one, however, I feel compelled to take issue with.
First, let me admit freely that I may be speaking ignorantly here, and will welcome correction from the Catholic perspective on Scripture.
To my knowledge, there is no indication that Noah’s story follows closely enough on the historical heels of Adam and Eve et. al. that no human being had yet died.
I recall no indication that men did not eat meat prior to the flood, either.
In that context, the “brother’s keeper” question seems more like an attempt to shrug off responsibility for his brother’s well-being.
I look forward to your response – be gentle!
Peace,
Dante
First, let me admit freely that I may be speaking ignorantly here, and will welcome correction from the Catholic perspective on Scripture.
What is your basis for these assertions?
To my knowledge, there is no indication that Noah’s story follows closely enough on the historical heels of Adam and Eve et. al. that no human being had yet died.
I recall no indication that men did not eat meat prior to the flood, either.
How is he unaware of what death is if he sacrifices animals? How can it be a sacrifice if he does not understand that the animal is no more?
Sadness and jealousy and weepeing are all aspects of our reality. Surely Cain and Abel both skinned their knees when they were boys; possibly, it hurt enough to make them weep.
It’s intriguing to think that Cain was attempting to please God by sacrificing his brother, but that doesn’t seem to jive with the tone of the story. For one thing, when God asks Cain where Abel is, Cain’s first words are a lie: “I do not know.”
In that context, the “brother’s keeper” question seems more like an attempt to shrug off responsibility for his brother’s well-being.
I really think it’s inappropriate to say that he didn’t know what death was. Perhaps it would be better to say he didn’t understand what death truly is, because he probably recognized death when he saw it (it’s “That Thing That Happens When We Cut The Goat’s Throat”, from his perspective). Certainly he had enough experience with it to realize its finality, from a primitive point of view.
I look forward to your response – be gentle!
Peace,
Dante
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SpiritMeadow
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No need, if you wish to be rude, be rude…I don’t need to bother with rudeness for exactly no reason. I found it weird. I see no connection. Apparently you are too lazy to respond, just sling slurs instead. good day.
you guys like to state things…do you ever explain or just be snide?
not really off topic. didn’t you recognize the Abel Gore connection?
Nope
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**ok I thought you might change your mind
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Benadam
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I’m sorry spiritmeadow. I was snide and reacted badly to you.
I speculate that Cain’s offering is rejected because it springs from his abuse of the earth and Al Gore’s recent Nobel Peace prize for work to stop abuse of the earth provides a valid connection worth mention. Wouldn’t current day ramifications in regards of a particular view be on topic since speculation seeks valid as well as deeper understanding? I felt you reacted much to soon to treat our contribution as a threat to the topic.
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SpiritMeadow
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I do see the connection now, of course you are right. I apologize too. A couple of people here really push my buttons, you aren’t one of them, but you caught the reaction I’m afraid. I do apologize.
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Benadam
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Thank you for being so gracious. Apology accepted.
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marymol
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If I may, hope this is o.k to bring up two Cain - Abel like figures from the New Testament here - St.Jude and Judas …(well , only figuratively, as far as fidelity to our Lord )- since today is Feast of St.Jude and many of us are beneficiaries of his powerful intercession , he who is thought to be kin to our Lord … and an intercessor in 'difficult cases ’ .
Aren’t many of these O.T incidents , instances of how difficult true conversion was for the fallen man - until the coming of The Spirit , through our Lord’s Incarnation, Passion , Resurrection, and Ascension…
And even now , is not that the most daunting of our needs …the ’ impossible sitaution ’ , to be freed from being a god unto self ,and all the fears miseries and envy that come with it … so that we can truly love and trust our Lord and Father …and see that ’ all things belong to us ’ in Him …and that we belong to Him …
St.Jude , may be had to bear ’ the loss of name’ because of Judas …may be he knew all along that such woule be the case , till these days …yet, like his beloved Master , probably embraced same , for the sake of making the goodness of that Lord and Master more well known , by obtaining favors , for those he intercede for …and our Lord ever pleased to do so , in our efforts to shed our own Cain like traits , of making a name for ourselves …
Is not a mother’s role too well depicted in this event …there is (poor) Eve, after the birth of Cain , announcing ’ I have produced a son …’
With the approach of Halloween , a day that pagan forces are also trying to use now a days , to call down other forces , may the powerful intercession of the New Eve , the Mother of our Lord, our Lady of Rosary, who joyfully procalimed herself as the Hand Maid of The Lord , bring us all, protection and blessings, and bring us the true joy of worshipping our Father …
Aren’t many of these O.T incidents , instances of how difficult true conversion was for the fallen man - until the coming of The Spirit , through our Lord’s Incarnation, Passion , Resurrection, and Ascension…
And even now , is not that the most daunting of our needs …the ’ impossible sitaution ’ , to be freed from being a god unto self ,and all the fears miseries and envy that come with it … so that we can truly love and trust our Lord and Father …and see that ’ all things belong to us ’ in Him …and that we belong to Him …
St.Jude , may be had to bear ’ the loss of name’ because of Judas …may be he knew all along that such woule be the case , till these days …yet, like his beloved Master , probably embraced same , for the sake of making the goodness of that Lord and Master more well known , by obtaining favors , for those he intercede for …and our Lord ever pleased to do so , in our efforts to shed our own Cain like traits , of making a name for ourselves …
Is not a mother’s role too well depicted in this event …there is (poor) Eve, after the birth of Cain , announcing ’ I have produced a son …’
With the approach of Halloween , a day that pagan forces are also trying to use now a days , to call down other forces , may the powerful intercession of the New Eve , the Mother of our Lord, our Lady of Rosary, who joyfully procalimed herself as the Hand Maid of The Lord , bring us all, protection and blessings, and bring us the true joy of worshipping our Father …
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Ani_Ibi
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Actually I don’t wish to be rude. Neither do I want to be treated in an overly dismissive manner simply for commenting on the environmental connection in the Cain and Abel story.
Mr Gore is a public figure, a Nobel figure, someone who has made sweeping claims about the environment. He is therefore subject to ‘fair comment.’ What I said was fair comment. His environmental footprint is larger than a small town.
If you see no connection then your next step is to ask for clarification. Please try to remember than next time, OK?
I am too lazy? You do realize that you have made an ad hominem attack? You might want to consider refraining in future.
Disagreement is not slinging slurs.
Have a good one.
‘You guys’? Of whom are you speaking? As for me, if you look at my record I often explain in extended detail with copious links to references. However, I have been more selective of late, choosing only to elaborate when there is a genuine conversation happening. As for being snide: pot, kettle?
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Ani_Ibi
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Hi Linda Marie. Thank you for the links. The Forgotten Books of Eden: do you know the Church’s position towards them? I don’t. I was wondering if you did.
Somewhere else someone said that folks knew about death. How would they know about death? Adam and Eve had not died yet. The first death we know about is the sacrifice of Abel’s animal. Not even for food are animals killed. We are told this after Noah lands on the mountain after the rains stop. Before Noah, folks were vegetarian.
I think it is important to flatten this thing about death because I think, in many ways, the whole of Scripture is about learning about death. Even in our time so many of us do not understand what the term ‘Culture of Death’ means.
Somewhere else someone said that folks knew about death. How would they know about death? Adam and Eve had not died yet. The first death we know about is the sacrifice of Abel’s animal. Not even for food are animals killed. We are told this after Noah lands on the mountain after the rains stop. Before Noah, folks were vegetarian.
I think it is important to flatten this thing about death because I think, in many ways, the whole of Scripture is about learning about death. Even in our time so many of us do not understand what the term ‘Culture of Death’ means.
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Ani_Ibi
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:blushing: Ah shucks, Mr Alighieri.
OK.
Oh gosh, when I told my priest my theory he furrowed his brow and looked at me as if I were from outer space: ground control to Major Ani.
That Abel’s offering was a tithe? Genesis 4:4 – “Abel, for his part, brought on of the best firstlings of his flock.”
The first and best is the tithe.
I did not say that no human being had died at the time of Noah. I said that until the time that Noah landed on the mountain, folks had been vegetarian. The important part is that at the time of Cain and Abel the only death which they had experienced – that we are told about in Scripture – is Abel’s best firstling.
Genesis 9:3 – “Every creature that is alive shall be yours to eat; I give them all to you as I did the green plants. Only flesh with its life-blood still in it you shall not eat.”
It is the parallel structure of the sentence that tells us that BEFORE the flood He gave green plants (to eat); AFTER the flood He gave animals (to eat).
Cain did not sacrifice an animal. His brother Abel did. Cain grew crops.
I assume you are talking about Abel now. It is a sacrifice because well… imagine: It is among Abel’s firstlings. So Abel has known the animal for a long time. It is also among Abel’s best animals. So Abel has likely spent some time being proud of the animal and being fond of it. He loves his animal. You could say that it is Abel’s pet. So to cut its throat would mean that he is giving it up, sacrificing it and making him very sad.
What would cause you to weep more? A skinned knee? Or your family pet run over on the road?
Are they a lie? “I don’t know” could well indicate that Cain doesn’t have a clue what this thing called death is. Only that Able is stiff and cold. Likely Cain is afraid because of not knowing. Note what he says next:
“Am I my brother’s keeper?” Implicit in this is: my brother was a keeper of an animal which is now cold and stiff. Am I a keeper of my brother who is cold and stiff? Does cutting someone’s throat make one a keeper?
Legitimate question for someone who knows nothing about death.
Responsibility hinges on knowledge. How much knowledge does Cain have about death?
You know what death is. Is it fair to say that Cain knew?
Can you set out what that experience would be please? Thank you.
I think we should sacrifice a pizza. What say? Pepperoni and mushroom?
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DanteAlighieri
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Oh, good – then you weren’t paraphrasing some obscure Church document of which I was unaware.
of his flock."
The first and best is the tithe.
No, I was primarily wondering about your assertion that all men were vegetarians before the flood. I’ll address it below.
the only death which they had experienced – that we are told about in Scripture – is Abel’s best firstling.
Where do you get the idea that no human being had died before the time of Noah? I don’t recall any suggestion of that – especially since Abel was dead by then.
With regard to Cain’s and Abel’s experience, they had perhaps not experienced human death, but certainly had experienced the deaths of the animals Abel had sacrificed. That they were brothers suggests to me the probability that Cain had, at some point, witnessed a holocaust or spoken with Abel about it.
of the sentence that tells us that BEFORE the flood He gave green plants (to eat); AFTER the flood He gave animals (to eat).
Note that the prohibition is against eating flesh that still has the blood in it – i.e., raw meat. God is giving all living animals to men to be eaten, which suggests that such was done. They were not, however, to eat the raw flesh off the bone, as the animals do.
Even if this is not the true nature of the prohibition, there’s nothing in this verse to suggest that men did not eat meat until the flood.
Yes…I misspoke.
. So Abel has known the animal for a long time. It is also among Abel’s best animals. So Abel has likely spent some time being proud of the animal and being fond of it. He loves his animal. You could say that it is Abel’s pet. So to cut its throat would mean that he is giving it up, sacrificing it and making him very sad.
What makes it a sacrifice is that it is an irrevocable giving of something that is important. If one is not aware that it is irrevocable when one makes the sacrifice, one’s motive is not the same.
Thus, Abel (and, presumably, others) were aware that when they cut the animal’s throat, it was going away forever – even if that’s the extent of their understanding, they surely had some understanding of the irrevocable nature of death.
? A skinned knee? Or your family pet run over on the road?
I don’t think the distinction matters here. You said that the first human family had no experience with death or weeping; I’m illustrating that since we share with them a fallen nature, it stands to reason that they experienced many of the same things we do – such as a skinned knee – that might cause involuntary weeping.
?" Implicit in this is: my brother was a keeper of an animal which is now cold and stiff. Am I a keeper of my brother who is cold and stiff? Does cutting someone’s throat make one a keeper?
Legitimate question for someone who knows nothing about death.
I see your point, but that’s not how the passage reads to me. Rather, it seems more like a consciously guilty party trying to deflect his guilt when he’s questioned by an authority who knows the truth: “How should I know where he is – I’m not responsible for keeping track of him.”
continued below
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DanteAlighieri
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I think it’s fair based on the fact that his actions are framed as a heinous offense. If he had no idea what death was, could he have committed a mortal sin by killing?
I also think it’s reasonable to assume Cain had enough experience with the deaths of animals to be able to apply his experience beforehand to what might happen if he spilled his brother’s blood.
And, of course, the moral law is written on our hearts, too.
Well, since I’m not willing to concede the “vegetarian” angle, I think at the very least Cain killed animals for food, or at least saw others do it, or ate food others had killed, or heard stories about hunting. Furthermore, as I’ve pointed out, his brother offered animal sacrifices; it’s not unreasonable to expect that they talked about it or that he had witnessed it at some point. Thus, I think he had enough experience to know that violence performed on a living being can end its life, even if he had no concept of what might happen beyond that point.
Mushrooms on your half only, and you’ve got a deal!I think we should sacrifice a pizza. What say? Pepperoni and mushroom?
Peace,
Dante
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