Cain and Abel, A new look

[Huiou_Theou]

Hi PeterK, welcome to the forums

… continued to Ani Ibli.

Yes. That is part of what I am saying. If you read the narrative really closely, you see that God LOVES Cain and is merciful to him. He could have turned him into a pillar of salt or something.

sure. I don’t doubt that, but do you mean that there is something – of God who is love – that this God doesn’t love? eg. the Devil?

God bless you and rest you.

Thanks, the surgery went well. Only small pains now.
It really gave me time to think about trusting my brother, too!

Did he really leave Esau to his own devices? Look at what Esau ended up having.

Yes, and look how he got it. By threats of violence, and a long lingering fear in his brother. But even beyond that, the entire book of Job is dedicated to the theme: Why do the wicked prosper, and the Just suffer? (Does God hate Job?)

Esau’s prosperity is not a sign of future prosperity, nor prosperity in the afterlife. What is a few years of prosperity if the rest of eternity is lost?

I do not know Esau’s ultimate end, but I can say that he was left to his own devices for God does not bother to punish him as he does his favored son, Israel, who not only wrestles – but is wounded.

 

[PeterK]

Huiou,
The information concerning the greek is interesting. I have taken up learning elemental Hebrew with the goal of translating the first book of the Torah. It has been very interesting. Concerning Cain’s name, many commentators read a phonetic Hebrew tie-in between Eve’s proclaiming “I have ‘produced’ a man…” and Cain’s name. The “I have produced” and “Cain” are phonetically similar, something like ‘kayinina’ and 'kayin’ roughly. The commentators then use this to explain the meaning of Cain’s name. Everett Fox states the Hebrew in this passage is difficult.
Is this phonetic connection present in the Greek? My guess is the Hebraic pronounciation was retained for ‘Cain’ and ‘I have produced’ was translated with emphasis on the meaning - dropping any attempt to relate the two terms phonetically.
Concerning Cain’s name again, when one looks up Cain’s name in a Hebrew lexicon, there is remarkable simularity to be seen between Cain’s name and the various Hebrew terms for jealousy or envy. Maybe I can enumerate later. Remarkable enough to make me wonder if ‘I have produced’ is an apt translation, given it is an acknowleded difficult passage, and wonder if the meaning of Cain’s name - found in eve’s utterance - might closer resemble ‘I have envied’ than* ‘I have produced’*? I have just started translating this chapter so I don’t have much more to offer beyond the above.
What’s the point? If Cain’s name shares a phonetic resemblence to the Hebrew term for jealous this would not have been lost on the audience and would have bore some significant meaning for them - kind of like Simon/Cephas. It would have been a remark on both who he was and what he was - a jealous person.
All this, of course is my own speculation and raises more questions like why would Eve name her son ‘I have envied’?
Maybe she’s reflecting on the envy that landed her, Adam and this first born of man outside of Eden? Maybe she’s reflecting on her first experience of the ‘greatly mutliplied pains in childbearing’ - the consequence of her envy? Maybe despite her envy God has allowed this wonderful birth?

Thanks for listening.
Peter

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Hi Peter,
I think you are correct with respect to the Greek. I will look a little more later to see if some far fetched possibilities exist, but it looks like a transliteration (phonetic spelling of a foreign word).

I put the emphasis on ‘man’ earlier because when an etymology appears in the Greek, it means that the wider Greek public might not get the connection for some reason and that the ambiguity which may exist in the original language is best understood by the etymology given in the Greek – but I didn’t study it far enough.

For example: John 1:42 – as you point out;

κηφας ο ερμηνευεται πετρος

The sounds of the first word:
κ - K or C
η - A or E long, probably E ?
φ - f
α - a ( short sound probably, no aspiration )
ς - s

It looks like a Greek word because of the ending ας,
but it has no meaning even remotely close to Rock or Stone or anything else of value –

So the Greek readers would be confused by it – hence the interpretive statement, “the interpretation being rock”

The same thing happens in Genesis the first time the name Cain ( καιν ) is introduced, (and Eve has an explanation too) .

On the name kain.
In Greek, the particle και – is the word meaning “and” followed by a ν (N sound). I looked the word up some time ago, and ended up finding nothing even remotely close to any word of useful meaning here – so I am confident it is a transliteration of Hebrew, but the explanation part is more subtle – and perhaps a pun.
Doing a hyper-literal translation (preserving word order and count).

αδαμ δε εγνω ευαν την γυναικα αυτου
Adam <–but knew Euan the wife of him,

Eve sounds something like “You”+“an”

και συλ-λαβ-ουσα ετεκεν
and together-tooking bore

τον καιν και ειπεν ε-κτη-σαμην ανθρωπον δια του θεου
the Kain and said I-have-acquired man through the God.

Two things are apparent, the gender of the word “Kain” is not
inside the word itself, but is known by the definite article before it.
’ tov’ makes Cain to be explicitly masculine.
The word “man” is not exclusively male, but inclusively.
So the Greek wishes us to know that Kain is explicitly a man
in name since his name doesn’t show it – but what is taken is inclusive, and might refer to women on occasion.

The word conceiving, in Greek, is the combination of the word to take/size and the word for unity (together/with). So the Greek seems to be explaining the name Cain in terms of the word for conception when it repeats the idea “I have gotten”

Eve is essentially treating Kain as a possesion here, as the statement “I have gotten” is in the middle voice, eg:
what is really being said is “I have gotten for myself a man”.
It is a bragging about posession or aquisition, by any means licit or illicit.

I am not able to read Hebrew yet, so I hope you will continue to indulge us with your observations!

Thanks for sharing!

 

[Huiou_Theou]

CAF is an interesting place.
One minute a subtle mistake is being crushed into the ground,
the next whole lacuna’s go un-noticed.

This thread is more or less dead, but there are a few thoughts I would like to leave here for future reference, esp. for anyone willing to read this far… since I am very interested in working out a few things in the Greek – and I know that occasionally people researching dig even this deep into threads…

I’ll do a separate post for each of the words of interest:

The Greek word for cutting is used in Leviticus 1:12 with respect to sheep. ( διελ-ου-σιν αυτο = divide/cut it. )

This one verse sort of turns everything on its ear for me. The similarities between Cain and the Levitical priesthood are numerous.

The levitical priests killed their brothers during the calf incident, neither were to have land, both are given to cut/divide something,
the altar of burnt sacrifice is mentioned with respect to both, God grants to the levitical priests cities to live in rather than farmland just as Cain is a city dweller in the end, and God grants the Levitical priests a portion of the sacrifices dedicated to him as their food.

Both in the case of Cain and Adam, a curse is brought on the land due to sin – and it would seem that the Levitical priests who’s job it was to slaughter animals are ritually bound by the same logic since they spill blood on the ground, therefore they do not farm.

I would love to know if the Hebrew has a similar relationship with the word used for cutting in Lev 1:12 when compared to the difficult words in Gen 4:7, but I can’t read Hebrew.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

The word apo-strophe απο-στροφη is a very rich word in Greek:

In a very crude sense it means, turning-back away from.
The prefix απο (apo) – carries with it two general meanings, a direction away and a remote or farthest (extreme). eg: like an apogee.

The word is typically used when describing a cycle or closed circuit of events, for example it might be a refrain in a theatrical setting since that action the most different of the turnings.
Or, it might be the longest pause – or furthest point – on a journey. In this sense, it often means the beginning and end of a journey – the reference point – the alpha and omega – where someone came from and is going back to.

It very weakly carries with it the sense of from-twisting, or perhaps entanglement, or meandering. But, it refers primarily to an activity of someone/something rather than the result and the most extreme/different place of a journey.

As an interesting speculation it would describe the ultimate source/destination of a meandering river as a location.
The image of coils and fertility are intimately related, the word for womb referring to the “coils” (guts) of a person in Greek.
They did not differentiate between the guts and the womb – so that a child is in the κοιλιας (the coils.). See Deuteronomy 7:13 where the fruit of the womb is compared to the fruit of the soil.

In a play, an apostrophe would also describe abstract conversations, soliloque, etc. where the actor is the most turned back (away) from all other actors, and normal activity: eg: O death where is your sting!

In this sense, it is related to the idea of actions of repentance or conversion which is to turn-back based on a cause or foundation.

To emphasize the action meaning of the word, another two words with different prefixes, but the same -strophe ending used as verbs are:

“epi-strophe.” επι-στρεφ… – to turn upon something as a cause – like a hinge upon a socket – or the example of another (conversion) – or even a vehicle turning under one causing a re-orientation/ turning-back / turning point.

“ana-strophe” describes the repetitive “turning back” to old behaviors again --eg: it means the way a person normally acts in their life, according to historical examples.

Apo-strophe is a grammatical curiosity to me, as it is used in several places in such a way as to be idiomatic in some way, rather than literal – eg. it makes understanding the grammar of the sentence difficult in several places where it is used almost like a verb, or adverb.

With respect to Cain, it appears to hold the function of repentance of some kind, or of a badly needed conversation. It does not really contain the idea of desire as such, although it weakly has that meaning – for a purpose is implied by it.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

and finally:

`ησυχασον

The word looks to have an augment, but this is a false clue.
It is difficult to know which of the three possible persons it refers
to because the word is always “augmented” in all examples I can find, whether or not the meaning supports a form with augmetation! so it is impossible for me to tell whether any instance of the word is supposed to be augmented or not!

It carries the basic meaning of stilling or quieting, and can be
taken three ways – one of which is correct, and possibly two
if the author intended a pun.

#1) I/They quieted, waited, calmed (or as a sneaking up on )
#2) You be quiet!, peaceful!, waitful! – (as a command)
#3) quieting, waiting, … (the -ing version seems unlikely due to grammar)

There is an example where the Pagan Jael quiets toward her victim, which is in the subjunctive (conditional/uncertain) mood.
Whether she is calming a baby, sneaking up on a victim, or acting peaceful, etc. is uncertain – but she does kill him with a tent peg a moment later – and he is therefore quiet.

The word is not used in the subjunctive in Cain’s case, but there is a definite quieting TOWARD Cain – which is like the quiet stalking of a predator toward prey, or a father trying to soothe a child. Notice in the earlier sentence, the loud noises (grief making, face falling/anger) of Cain are being referenced by God.

It is this word ( `ησυχασον ) which appears to support a reading along the lines of the Latin Vulgate where sin stalks Cain.

But the ambiguity of the word used for Quiet might also be applied to Cain, as in – make yourself quiet --or-- hunt yourself. (master yourself). The overall effect being to ambiguously describe by a pun multiple characters seeking some kind of mastery over Cain.

If I am ever able to prove the form of the word better, I’ll post again here – but I doubt that I can from the examples I am able to find thus far.

God bless you, and grant you his wisdom.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

the World’s First Murder; part IV

The ground is not an incidental part of Cain’s punishment; it is the essential core of it. Everything that happens to him is phrased in terms of the ground. First Cain is told that he will be cursed “from the land;” then, that when he works the land, it will no longer give its strength to him; and finally, that he will be a wanderer throughout the land.
Why is the ground important here?

 

[marymol]

the World’s First Murder; part IV

Thank you for this link -so well depicting the effects of sin ; how man turned against God’s will makes such a mess of things !

Having lost The Presence of God , Adam’s son , not able to recognise that his real hunger is for that Presence …and even in this ’ curse’ of Cain having to wander around restlessly , do we not see God’s Mercy …that Cain would recognise ( may be only through his descendants ! ) what he is really searching for …

And how blessed we are …to be in that Presence …in The Eucharist .where grain and the Breath of The Spirit , make the presence of The Lamb , so easily accessible …to curb our undue passions …to give us the rest !

 

[marymol]

As we prepare to celebrate The Feast of The Immaculate Conception of our Bl. Mother, let us be grateful too , for the New Earth …untouched by any curse …prepared , to bring us the New Heaven - of our Lord’s Presence with us …

 

[Joe_Kelley]

World’s First Murder, Part V This week Rabbi Fohrman explores the meaning of Eve‘s words at Cain‘s birth and the wonder and miracle of any birth. This is the first thing she has encountered that was not created directly by God.

If every woman who goes through childbirth is at least dimly aware of this mystery – if every woman, at least to some extent, senses the “science-fiction-like” quality of childbirth – think of how Eve must have felt. What she went through didn’t just seem utterly new and unprecedented. It was utterly new and unprecedented. This was the first human birth in history. No one had ever been through this before. She must have experienced herself as being part of a miracle beyond imagining.

Did this lead Cain to also desire to share in creating by being a farmer?

 

[marymol]

Thank you again - and it is truly good to realise how Jewish perspective can highlight our own understandings of The New Testament .

Eve (and Adam ) had erred in their greed to acquire …against God’s Will …

Does not Eve’s words ’ I have acquired ’ reflect that division as well the subtle pride …and may be having instilled same , in Cain too - the need to have it all …and any one else as a threat …instead of as a blessing from God , to be loved and cherished …

Tomorrow , we celebrate The Feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe …our Bl. Mother , coming to a nation that had also gone terribly astray , in the emptiness of greed and the satanic need it creates, to acquire …even if that means killing off ones own brethren …and she comes to a poor peasant - Bl. Juan Diego …and with the help of The Church, able to change a nation and culture, that now are mostly meek and humble …

Blessed are the poor in spirit …being able to see His Presence and providence , even in seemingly small things …

And how that Queen of heaven , ( addressed by Angel Gabreil as ’ Hail ’ - a term for Royalty ) calls herself -’ the handmaid of The Lord ', and only wanting to magnify The Mercy of The Lord …

 

[AndyF]

I thought that the sacrifice was not acceptable to God because it was the an offering from his crop (fruits and vegtables), a that it needed to be a lamb or other livestock.

I read somewhere that herdsmanship was a more favored type of living in those days. Agriculture was culturally looked down upon.
So I wonder if there is some element of bias in this story.

Sorry I can’t verify this, but when I find it I’ll post.

AndyF

 

[Joe_Kelley]

World’s First Murder; Part VII

Eve’s exclamation in the wake of her delivery of mankind’s first child may well have been an attempt to grapple with this very dilemma. How does one balance the burning passion to create new life, the sense that one’s destiny and reason for living is bound up with this mind-boggling ability to create a new man, with the reality that one is the junior partner in this enterprise?

In his agriculture, did Cain recognize himself as junior partner to God?

 

[Joe_Kelley]

I somehow missed posting World;'s First Murder, part VI

The two halves of Eve’s marvelously concise statement mesh to form a fascinating whole. Eve perceives herself a partner with the Almighty in the sacred and miraculous act of creation. The fruit of this partnership matters to her, means everything to her; she has acquired, not merely created, and the product of this creativity expresses the essence of who she is. And yet this is not a partnership of equals. One partner is subject; the other is object. One is innovator, the other a tool.

 

[marymol]

Again , pretty interesting perspective , esp. when we contrast it with that of our Bl.Mother …the manger scene …where we find The Baby - with both Mary AND Joseph … and even the simple shepeherds , able to praise and glorify God …who is seen not just as a tool or only a partner…

One could even wonder which god Eve is talking about …since it is the lie of the evil one that bring in the conceit of the ’ I ’ that seem to place God as second …and the subtle sense of control or ownership over another person , even if one’s own child …or brother …

    And there is our Bl.Mother , filled with wonder and awe ...at all that was taking place ..and about His mysterious and most humble ways ....pondering ....not rushing to procalim what she  has   ' produced ' . ..being  filled with grace and  humble gratitude , she was glad to be the  handmaid ....with  no need to   take any glory for herself , other than that of being  able  to help us  to see better  the Glory , the love  , of our God ....and thus  could rejoice with those shepherds ...as she does even now.. ..with those who Shepeherd us ...and her beloved ' son' St .John .....( Feast - tomorrow )

May their prayers help us all , to give Glory to our God …who is with us !

 

[Joe_Kelley]

World’s First Murder, Part VIII What was the purpose of Cain’s sacrifice - gratitude or an insurance policy? Was he thanking God, or buying God’s favor?

A person expressing a profound sense of gratitude gives the best he can. A person buying an insurance policy is looking for a reasonable deal.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

The World’s First Murder, part IX Cain is asked to take responsibility for his actions.

Cain, in feeling angry, locates the source of his problem outside of himself, in God. No one can control God, and as long as that’s the problem, you’re nothing but a victim. But that wasn’t the reality. The core of his problem lay entirely in the choices Cain was himself making, in the nature of the relationship he was trying to build with God, and this was a realm entirely within his control. The first step off the bridge, then, is letting go and of anger and depression, and reclaiming this element of control.

 

[marymol]

’ Lift up ’ …

Here we are ,celebrating The Season … the beginnings of our darknness being lifted up …through The Father’s Mercy …and a Cross that is ever lifted up , for us !

Cain could not look at The Father and see His Love , for him or his brother … even in the midst of his failings …

May The Father bless us , to be lifted up , by focusing always on His Love…for each of us !

Blessings !

 

[Joe_Kelley]

The World’s First Murder; Part XI; An Overflowing Cup This time Rabbi David Fohrman explores the meaning of love. His discussion of why God made the world is particularly good:

One of the axioms that most religions, Judaism included, accepts about God is that He is good. But those are just words. What does it actually mean to be good? One of the things it means, Luzzatto says, is that one acts to benefit others. If there is no world, though, then there are no others that God can benefit; He exists alone in numinous solitude. God acted to create a world so that there would be other beings existing besides Himself, beings upon whom He could bestow goodness.

Sorry, I missed part X last week. I’ll try to get it later today.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

The World’s First Murder; Part X; Can Desire be Divorced from Need This one discusses

the word which the Bible uses for desire in each of our two verses is the Hebrew term teshukah. While this fact may seem unremarkable in and of itself, they [the rabbis of the Midrash] noticed that this word reappears in Scripture a number of times. They traced these various appearances – beyond Eve and Cain, the word reappears in connection with rain and with God Himself – and formulated what they saw was a pattern. Here is what they had to say:
There are four basic] ‘teshukot’ in the world. The teshukah of Eve for Adam, the teshukah* of the Evil Inclination for Cain, the* teshukah* of rain for land, and the *teshukah of the Master of the Universe for humanity. (Bereishis Rabbah 20:7)
Again they cite verses (which I have not reproduced here) to substantiate each one of these conclusions. But look at these four statements carefully. What are the rabbis really saying here?