California governor OKs ban on gay conversion therapy, calling it 'quackery'

[CopticChristian]

Sorry I have taken so long to reply. Having two children takes up most of your free time.

**Of course the APA and AMA (and the dozen or so other organizations who agree conversion therapy is useless) do not represent all doctors. But they certainly represent more doctors than NARTH or JONAH. **There is an extremely small minority of doctors who believe conversion therapy is useful. An I wrong? If so, feel free to shore evidence. So far, the only evidence you have shown so far for the current status of homosexuality among doctors is the opinion of a handful of them.

Of course the APA and AMA can be influenced by lobbyists who try to sway them to their cause. Are you really going to tell me that NARTH and JONAH have no such political motivation? Do you really think there are not hordes of conservatives trying to get these groups to come up with evidence supporting their beliefs? You seem like a very intelligent person. I should certainly hope you are smart enough to understand that both sides are influenced by lobbyists. But you don’t seem to. You seen to , again, fall into the same trap ask other conspiracy theorists fall into:

“The vast majority of scientists agree with me. But they are all corrupt. The small minority of scientists who agree with me are the only ones that can’t be corrupted”. A logical fallacy of the largest degree, and one which someone with a legal background such as yourself should be ashamed of believing.

Let’s look at the opposite. Imagine there were groups which represented a very large number of doctors who all said that conversion therapy works. Then imagine I claimed all those doctors were corrupt, and gave for evidence the opinion of two or three doctors as well as two groups which only represented a very small number of people. I claim that these people cannot be corrupt, and the opinions of this tiny minority far outweighed your organizations which represent tens of thousands of doctors. You would laugh me out the room. And you expect me to believe your same claim?

If you want me to believe you, I think you should provide me some actual evidence of your claims. Either:

A) show evidence that the number of doctors who think conversion therapy is effective is larger than the amount of doctors who claim it is not, or

B) show evidence that all the doctors in the APA and AMA are corrupt, and that the members of NARTH and JONAH are not corrupt.

These are claims that you are making, not me. I’m just asking you to show the evidence you have that allows you to make them. You have made these claims numerous times, and have yet to show an ounce of evidence to back then up. If you prove either of these claims with actual evidence, then I will admit I was wrong and that conversion therapy is more than likely an effective treatment

Kevin,

I believe you need to clarify and justify.

Membership in the AMA and opinions of the AMA do not equate to how many physicians they represent as it regards opinion.

Are you confusing how many members NARTH and Jonah have with who they represent…

Congress has two Senators from each state and the House of Representatives has members based on population of the State as I recall.

One Represenative and Two Senators represent the entire state…this is not the case with the AMA and the APA…it is not a democracy of opinion…

Illustrate for me how it is you think that those you feel represent what it is you think they represent without using membership numbers.

Show me any document of your choosing where Physicians across the United States voted, agreed, consented to allow the AMA to speak on their behalf.

 

[Kevin_B]

Show me any document of your choosing where Physicians across the United States voted, agreed, consented to allow the AMA to speak on their behalf.

That’s it? That’s easy. If you do not agree with the ideas of a group, you don’t join that group. Doctors have no requirement to join either of these organizations. They do so because they want to be represented.

You could also make the argument that the opinions of the NRA do not reflect the opinions of all their members, and to a small extent that is probably true. But you need to ask yourself, why did they join the NRA? The obvious answer is, since no one is required to join these organizations, people are most likely joining because they agree with the principles of the organization.

How many members of NARTH or JONAH do you think disagree with conversion therapy? Not many, I would imagine. Why? Because if they didn’t agree with conversion therapy, they would have no reason to join these organizations.

 

[CopticChristian]

That’s it? That’s easy. If you do not agree with the ideas of a group, you don’t join that group. Doctors have no requirement to join either of these organizations. They do so because they want to be represented.

You could also make the argument that the opinions of the NRA do not reflect the opinions of all their members, and to a small extent that is probably true. But you need to ask yourself, why did they join the NRA? The obvious answer is, since no one is required to join these organizations, people are most likely joining because they agree with the principles of the organization.

How many members of NARTH or JONAH do you think disagree with conversion therapy? Not many, I would imagine. Why? Because if they didn’t agree with conversion therapy, they would have no reason to join these organizations.

Kevin,

Joining the AMA has numerous motives. Students are recruited for the most part believing that they must or should join. The AMA is not representative of much of anything. That aside. Let me ask you a few questions.

NARTH appears to be unsupported for several reasons…

1. Success Rate…is this something that you believe is relative to the reasons for opposing NARTH and conversion therapy?
2. NARTH appears to have religious sentiments and because of that it would be ludicrous to have the AMA or any other society promote religion. Is this correct?
3. Science appears to be contrary to NARTH from a particular perspective so lack of conformation with science appears to be a reason conversion therapy is opposed. Is this correct?
4. NARTH represents a small group not consistent with the status quo and should be shut down. Is this correct?

Help me by being concise and brief, either yes or no for each of these?

 

[CopticChristian]

I am in favor of parents being allowed to raise moral children without the State encouraging homosexual behavior. If a child had issues with that particular temptation, then of course a parent should try and make the child’s life easier if there is way to lessen or eliminate that temptation. If a child is doing drugs, is it wrong to get help with that issue?

In no case does one man have the right to dictate by fiat what parents can do for their children.

PNew,

A preliminary block to banning conversion therapy has been issued…

latimesblogs.latimes.com/california-politics/2012/12/judge-blocks-ban-on-gay-conversion-therapy.html

U.S. District Judge William Shubb ruled that the new law, SB 1172, signed by Gov. Jerry Brown earlier this year, may inhibit the 1st Amendment rights of therapists who oppose homosexuality. The judge signed a temporary injunction that prohibits the state from enforcing the ban, the first of its kind in the nation, against the three plaintiffs in the suit pending trial.

Shubb wrote in his 38-page ruling that the new law, by state Sen. Ted Lieu (D-Los Angeles) “likely… bans a mental health provider from expressing his or her viewpoints about homosexuality as part of…treatment.”

The judge also found fault with the evidence cited by proponents of the law that conversion therapy puts patients at risk of suicide. He wrote in his ruling that it is “based on questionable and scientifically incomplete studies that may not have included minors.”

Much of what I read about those that want to ban conversion therapy cite…

guaranteed results? What therapist in their right mind would guarantee anything other than a hope for change. Can you imagine…“I guarantee you will not be depressed, angry, sad, etc”. This is ludicrous…

Forced therapy? No therapist forces anything on anyone. Every client has two feet and can leave at any time. Can you imagine…“I was forced to talk, forced to listen, the door was not locked, I willingly drove there, but, but…”. This is ludicrous.

I have the right as does every other individual in this country to say that as a Catholic…Homosexual acts are disordered…

I have a right as a Physician to say…Some Homosexuals may want to change and there is always possibility for change if someone wants to change. No change happens lacking motiviation.

The AMA, APA, and all the orther organizations cannot dictate how I think and believe.

The AMA says addiction is a disease. I say they are wrong and so do others like St. Gregory, St. Jude and the Baldwin Research group and Stanton Peele, PhD. They and I have the right to say so, believe so and practice so.

The APA says addiction is a disorder. I say they are wrong as do others and can believe so and practice so.

Societies do not dictate how any one physician thinks, believes or practices. It is only the uninformed populace with an agenda that appeals to an authority that is no authority.

There will be no ban…

 

[epan]

In no case does one man have the right to dictate by fiat what parents can do for their children.

When it comes to medical care, this is not always true. For example, if a parent refuses needed medical treatment for a child on religious grounds, that may be a criminal act. We recognize the need to protect children from parents who would harm them.

What is in dispute, for some, is whether “conversion therapy” is a valid treatment modality. Unless there is very clear evidence, I don’t think that the state should be telling psychotherapists what works and what doesn’t.

Anecdotally, I know one person who was forced to endure conversion therapy as a minor. It didn’t work, and he still has not forgiven his parents for the coercion. He believes that the therapist should be sued for malpractice.

 

[fix]

Societies do not dictate how any one physician thinks, believes or practices. It is only the uninformed populace with an agenda that appeals to an authority that is no authority.

Very true. Scientism is our new god.

 

[rorydaman]

Why should people be prohibited from it?

Because it is psychologically damaging and basically universally viewed as such by the medical community. Maybe they should bring back lobotomies or shock therapy too. What about torture?

 

[CopticChristian]

When it comes to medical care, this is not always true. For example, if a parent refuses needed medical treatment for a child on religious grounds, that may be a criminal act. We recognize the need to protect children from parents who would harm them.

What is in dispute, for some, is whether “conversion therapy” is a valid treatment modality. Unless there is very clear evidence, I don’t think that the state should be telling psychotherapists what works and what doesn’t.

Anecdotally, I know one person who was forced to endure conversion therapy as a minor. It didn’t work, and he still has not forgiven his parents for the coercion. He believes that the therapist should be sued for malpractice.

Epan,

an intervention for addiction is coercion. In fact there is a book titled “avoiding 12 step coercion”. Interventions lead to 12 step religion. This religion is supported and advertised on AMA and other society websites. 12 steps/AA has a failure/success rate that is no better than spontaneous recovery. Many people believe that they have been harmed by the 12 step program. There are in fact sites “deprogramming from the 12 steps”. This continues. It is religious, harmful and yet there is no attempt to ban it.

 

[CopticChristian]

Because it is psychologically damaging and basically universally viewed as such by the medical community. Maybe they should bring back lobotomies or shock therapy too. What about torture?

Rory,

Then according to your logic the 12 step religion of AA should also be banned as it has been declared to be a relgion by the Supreme Court, has a failure rate that equals spontaneous recovery and is equivalent to torture for some.

 

[rorydaman]

Rory,

Then according to your logic the 12 step religion of AA should also be banned as it has been declared to be a relgion by the Supreme Court, has a failure rate that equals spontaneous recovery and is equivalent to torture for some.

When was it declared a religion by the supreme court? I believe that people are still sentenced to go to AA by the courts which would violate the separation of church and state if it was a religion.

And this is a ban for bigoted parents forcing their children into this therapy.

 

[CopticChristian]

When was it declared a religion by the supreme court? I believe that people are still sentenced to go to AA by the courts which would violate the separation of church and state if it was a religion.

And this is a ban for bigoted parents forcing their children into this therapy.

Rory,

You can read about the ludicrous nature of our so called medical societies and the disease theory here…it also has reference to the Supreme Court decision.

soberforever.net/disease-theory-alcoholism.cfm

The fourth proposition is certainly not true. In 1988, the United States Supreme Court found that alcoholism is always the result of the veteran’s “own willful misconduct.” It reaffirmed the lower court"s finding that there exists “a substantial body of medical literature that even contests the proposition that alcoholism is a disease, much less that it is a disease for which the victim bears no responsibility.” (*See Footnote 4.) It also noted that “Indeed, even among many who consider alcoholism a “disease” to which its victims are genetically predisposed, the consumption of alcohol is not regarded as wholly involuntary.” (*See Footnote 5.)

The 7th and 9th Circuit Courts of appeal have all ruled that you have choice when offered rehab when courts are sentencing. In fact these cases involved DUI and discharge from prison. The courts cannot force you to go to AA. You however must know this when offered this alternative and if you protest and offer St. Jude or St. Gregory or any other alternative to AA, the courts must comply.

The rub is like you, if you don’t know, you will go to the religion of AA.

and our beloved AMA that represents less than 1/3 of physicians that the public clings to as authority says.

The American Medical Association

In 1956 the American Medical Association voted to define alcoholism as a medically treatable disease so that such treatment by physicians would become eligible for payment from third parties (insurance companies). The decision was made on self-serving economic rather than scientific grounds. In defending the action, Jellineck said, “a disease is anything that doctors choose to call a disease." (*See Footnote 6.) Calling alcoholism a disease was a bonanza that quickly poured many billions of dollars into the pockets of physicians, hospitals and pharmaceutical companies and continues to do so.

Science, Research, Fact, oh no Opinion…so if the AMA declares something to be a disease, it is a disease and they make money…and if the AMA says homosexuality is not a disease or disorder…is it because of Science? Research? Fact?..oh no…and so it goes…this will be raised in the courts and the AMA and the APA will have to justify promoting one religion for the non disease of addiction and the relgion of AA and trying to shut down Nicolosi…this is the achilles heel of the argument.

 

[CopticChristian]

When was it declared a religion by the supreme court? I believe that people are still sentenced to go to AA by the courts which would violate the separation of church and state if it was a religion.

And this is a ban for bigoted parents forcing their children into this therapy.

Rory,

Here are the circuit court cases…

The 7th and 9th Circuit Courts of appeal have all ruled that you have choice when offered rehab when courts are sentencing. In fact these cases involved DUI and discharge from prison. The courts cannot force you to go to AA. You however must know this when offered this alternative and if you protest and offer St. Jude or St. Gregory or any other alternative to AA, the courts must comply.

The 7th Circuit court case can be found on the Internet…

Kerr v. Farrey, 95 F.3d 472 (7th Cir.
1996),

which holds that the Alcoholics Anonymous
12 step program cannot be imposed by the state as
a requirement for eligibility for parole.

The 9th Circuit court case can be found on the internet…

Zen K. Inouye Hawaii

and another case saying the same thing

Griffin v. Coughlin, 88 N.Y.2d 674 (June 11, 1996).

Effect of Griffin v. Coughlinon Current Law
The Court holds that an inmate’s eligibility for special privileges may not be conditioned on mandatory participation in a program which adopts religious-oriented practices. The Court’s reasoning rests primarily on interpretations of certain terms and practices generally associated with religious practices. For example, the Court concludes that the “Twelve Steps” of the ASAT Program are almost exclusively patterned after the “Twelve Steps/Twelve Traditions” adopted by A.A. both programs make numerous references to “God,” “prayer,” “meditation,” and “power.” In order to determine if the above stated terms were religious in character, the Court looked to arguments and discussions advanced in the literature of A.A.

So the religion of AA/12 steps has no better than a success rate of spontaneous recovery or doing nothing and survives. You cannot be forced. Therapists and patients have a right to choose what is delivered as treatment.

Conversion therapy has a religious overtone, has questionable success rate when viewed from the outside, you cannot be forced, and therapists have a right to deliver treatment for those that choose to do so.

Do you see the parallel and faulty reasoning of the use of the AMA…this will be brought out in the courts…I made sure to bring this to the attention of Liberty Counsel.

 

[sw85]

But isn’t the real issue whether this “therapy” (as a practice, separate from the underlying moral issue) in fact works?

Actually that’s the least important issue here. They don’t want to ban it because it doesn’t work. They want to ban it because they want to normalize sodomy.

 

[rorydaman]

Actually that’s the least important issue here. They don’t want to ban it because it doesn’t work. They want to ban it because they want to normalize sodomy.

Why do the great majority of experts think that it is damaging? Is it all a “normalizing sodomy conspiracy.”

 

[SamH]

Why do the great majority of experts think that it is damaging? Is it all a “normalizing sodomy conspiracy.”

Because they are wrong?

 

[CopticChristian]

Why do the great majority of experts think that it is damaging? Is it all a “normalizing sodomy conspiracy.”

Rory,

Because you listen to the experts that say it is damaging. I just received Nicolosi’s book

“Shame and attachment loss”…the work of reparative therapy…

There are numerous people that praise this book. I will get a list of the names later.

So if you listen to those that say AA is wonderful you will think it is wonderfu. If you look at those that say it is bunk you will believe it is bunk. When you look at the facts you come to your own conclusion.

The AMA says addiction is a disease and St. Gregory and St Jude and others say it is not and they practice to work to help people and point out the bunk of this AMA disease theory.

The AMA followed suit with the APA to take homosexuality out of the DSM and declare homosexuality is not a disease or disorder. There are those that say homosexuality is an issue for people that want change to change and discredit the AMA and APA and they have the same right to work to help people and point out the bunk of the AMA and the APA reversal of theory.

 

[epan]

Epan,

an intervention for addiction is coercion. In fact there is a book titled “avoiding 12 step coercion”. Interventions lead to 12 step religion. This religion is supported and advertised on AMA and other society websites. 12 steps/AA has a failure/success rate that is no better than spontaneous recovery. Many people believe that they have been harmed by the 12 step program. There are in fact sites “deprogramming from the 12 steps”. This continues. It is religious, harmful and yet there is no attempt to ban it.

Hi Coptic -

I was referring more to things like some religious groups who would deny blood transfusions to a child, etc… The claim had been made that a parent should never be told what to do with a child. If this were so, then we would have less need for child protective services.

The law also allows someone to be committed for psychiatric evaluation, against his or her will, under certain conditions. This is a coercive act, which is deemed to be for the welfare of the patient, and is of limited scope and duration. You probably know much more about this than I do.

As for addiction intervention, I suppose it could be said that an addict might need some strong intervention in order to take steps to seek help. But, as you have pointed out, nothing happens unless the person is motivated to change.

 

[fix]

Why do the great majority of experts think that it is damaging? Is it all a “normalizing sodomy conspiracy.”

Because the world is full of credentialed people that reject moral truth. It is not simply a science issue. It is a political/moral issue.

 

[bludhorse]

Courage International, Positive Alternatives to Homosexuality, NARTH and similar organizations teach bullying to chur:thumbsup:ch members.

They flat out bully kids in a mystical and extremely hurtful way.

They are considered “rehab” against God’s Law because the organizations used aversion therapies to create so-called ex-gays.

Jesus said to his disciples:
“I am the true vine, and my Father is the vine grower.
He takes away every branch in me that does not bear fruit,
and everyone that does he prunes so that it bears more fruit.

We cannot have a true vine if we let these bullies abuse more children.

Stop the hate in churches everywhere.

LEARN CHRIST! What would he do and then look at yourself.

 

[CopticChristian]

Courage International, Positive Alternatives to Homosexuality, NARTH and similar organizations teach bullying to chur:thumbsup:ch members.

They flat out bully kids in a mystical and extremely hurtful way.

They are considered “rehab” against God’s Law because the organizations used aversion therapies to create so-called ex-gays.

Jesus said to his disciples:
“I am the true vine, and my Father is the vine grower.
He takes away every branch in me that does not bear fruit,
and everyone that does he prunes so that it bears more fruit.

We cannot have a true vine if we let these bullies abuse more children.

Stop the hate in churches everywhere.

LEARN CHRIST! What would he do and then look at yourself.

You have posted this exact post in two separate places.

Aversion therapy is not now or ever been part of NARTH.

You are wrong.

Which version of the Bible do you have?