Calling all Catholics. Help

[FireFromHeaven]

A year ago I ran into a protestant booth at the regional stock show. They said that only faith saves and that most people will go to hell. Even as a cafeteria catholic I was sickened. Over the last year this led me to true Christianity in the Church. Today I went, arrogantly I now know, to test my hands at apologetics I did okay with one of their novices but an experienced apologist wiped the floor with me. I am strengthening my faith now so I will be ready for next year. I am going to read the catechism once every month and the new testament every 2-3 weeks. However I need help refuting their arguments. When I get home I will type up their arguments as I am typing this in a parking lot. Please give every article or book you know that could help in this situation. God bless.

 

[MichaelHowling]

waiting on pins and needles.

 

[FireFromHeaven]

First they used Romans 3:23 and Romans 6:23 to demonstrate that all were sinners and worthy of hell. Then was Romans 5:8 that Christ died for those sins, ephesians 2:8-9 that only faith not works got one to heaven and then 1 John 5:13 to say that one must know you are saved. I said that one cannot know and we went around in circles. I pulled James 2:14-2:26 but he said these were just saying how if one was ungodly no one would listen too you. After that i bashed my head on his arguement due to my arrogant failure to study. Finally he gave me a pamphlet called The Gospel by Ronald Shea. I read it and it pretty much just expands on their main point that salvation is a free gift and cannot be earned.

 

[capablanca911]

Listen to Catholic Answers Live podcasts everyday.

I read catholicdefense.blogspot.com religiously.

 

[FireFromHeaven]

Listen to Catholic Answers Live podcasts everyday.

I read catholicdefense.blogspot.com religiously.

Thank you.

 

[the_phoenix]

Back in 2007, somebody posted the following answer. I wish I remembered who it was so I could give proper credit. Anyways, here it is:

“Are you saved?” asks the Fundamentalist. The Catholic should reply: “As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).”

(So in a nut shell: We are saved; we are being saved; we will be saved. Salvation: Past, Present, Future… not a one time event.)

 

[mike2112]

Before you do anything - or get into any involvement with Protestants or debates, make sure you ask God to protect you and pray for the Holy Spirit to speak and listen through you.

You need to be well prepared before getting into debates with anyone. If you go with the mindset that you can do anything on your own - throw that away. It is by the Holy Spirit alone we can prove our points.

There are no divisions when the Holy Spirit is present within you.

Make sure you memorize verses and locations of the verses in the Bible - Protestants love to
cherry pick certain verses out of context.

Research online for the expected questions they will throw at you: You will find many Catholic Answers to their own beliefs. The truth is in the Church, but you need to convince them with evidence.

My greatest advice to you is simply this: Love

With love - the same love Jesus expressed, you can change minds because many individuals will be looking for outbursts and loss of self-control.

You never want to lose your cool - keep it calm and collected. Forgive them if they may hurl insults or condemnation on you - if they hit you on one cheek, offer the other. But whatever you do, don’t fall into the trap of sin or cursing them with anger.

If you have any specific questions please ask: you have a huge living database of apologists in the Catholic Church, even regular people like me - who know a lot of refuting point Protestants bring up.

This is also considering the fact that they have laughed at me for being only 19 - then I would later on get surrounded by Protestants but then it ends up with me overpowering them with the Holy Spirit

You are on the right track! - Read your Bible and look to the Catechism and the Church teachings of absolutely everything.

And the truth shall set you free!

 

[FireFromHeaven]

Before you do anything - or get into any involvement with Protestants or debates, make sure you ask God to protect you and pray for the Holy Spirit to speak and listen through you.

You need to be well prepared before getting into debates with anyone. If you go with the mindset that you can do anything on your own - throw that away. It is by the Holy Spirit alone we can prove our points.

There are no divisions when the Holy Spirit is present within you.

Make sure you memorize verses and locations of the verses in the Bible - Protestants love to
cherry pick certain verses out of context.

Research online for the expected questions they will throw at you: You will find many Catholic Answers to their own beliefs. The truth is in the Church, but you need to convince them with evidence.

My greatest advice to you is simply this: Love

With love - the same love Jesus expressed, you can change minds because many individuals will be looking for outbursts and loss of self-control.

You never want to lose your cool - keep it calm and collected. Forgive them if they may hurl insults or condemnation on you - if they hit you on one cheek, offer the other. But whatever you do, don’t fall into the trap of sin or cursing them with anger.

If you have any specific questions please ask: you have a huge living database of apologists in the Catholic Church, even regular people like me - who know a lot of refuting point Protestants bring up.

This is also considering the fact that they have laughed at me for being only 19 - then I would later on get surrounded by Protestants but then it ends up with me overpowering them with the Holy Spirit

You are on the right track! - Read your Bible and look to the Catechism and the Church teachings of absolutely everything.

And the truth shall set you free!

I am 15 myself. Thank you for this wonderful truly Christian advice.

 

[petra22]

Before you do anything - or get into any involvement with Protestants or debates, make sure you ask God to protect you and pray for the Holy Spirit to speak and listen through you.

And the truth shall set you free!

I really like this advice!

 

[7armyrugrats]

Wow! 15? 19? I’ve got two sons those ages! I’m completely humbled and so impressed. God has blessed the future of our Church. Keep on defending the truth and continue to learn as well as teach.

 

[rafarose]

What about “love”? Did Jesus, God incarnate, not say that the greatest commandment is to love? If Jesus only spoke of love, how could we have known that he truly loved us, if he did not die for us? It is through his suffering, his life, death and resurrection that our faith is defined. Our faith is, ultimately, defined by God’s love for us. And if God, through Jesus who is love incarnate, has commanded us to love as a justification for our faith, who are we to say that faith is the only sufficient condition?

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead —James 2:14-26

– Rafaella

 

[odile53]

I’m a fairly devout Catholic, and have been one all my life. I rarely engage in arguments with Protestants, as most of them believe that the Bible is the sole authority on all things of faith. They will tend to reject anything that cites tradition other than what is in the Bible.

My favorite response to them is this: “Who interpreted this for you?” They are usually at a loss to answer that question. My answer to that question is that the Church has had literally thousands of scholars and experts researching and meditating on these writings for over two thousand years. They rarely know how to respond to that, too.

In my experience, most Protestants that I have encountered are well-meaning, but only have a smattering of knowledge of both scripture and their own beliefs. They have some of the truth, but as a Church, we have the fullness of truth.

This is a little nasty, but if you really want to pick a fight with a Protestant, tell them that all salvation is through the Catholic Church: If it weren’t for St. Jerome translating all the Aramaic and Greek writings into Latin, the Gospels and Acts would have been lost to oral tradition. If it weren’t for Catholic monks copying down Scripture through the Dark Ages, Protestants wouldn’t have Scripture that they cherish so much (not that I don’t cherish the Bible, and read it frequently.) And if you REALLY want to upset them, you can always tell them that they are already part of the Universal Church, but just don’t have access to the fullness of it yet, almost like going to a buffet and just being able to eat the hors d’ouerves and salad bar! Get ready to run if you take this stance–LOL!

The biggest argument that I have with a church that does not have teaching authority is this: It seems to fall to every preaching clergyman to promote his own interpretation of what a particular passage is saying. That is akin to providing every American citizen with a copy of the Constitution and telling them to interpret it for themselves. Could you imagine the chaos that would result from that? All that would have to happen is someone misreading something and proceeding with behaviors based on that misread! I’m thinking of a particularly funny misinterpretation of the Second Amendment I saw on a bumper sticker once–“I support the right to keep and arm bears!”–but you get the idea! There are actually denominations of Protestantism that focus on one or two passages of Scripture: Look at the snake handlers, who base their snake handling on “just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert…”

Do you have a copy of the Catechism? For what it’s worth, you can access it online on the USCCB website. You can also buy a paperback copy, and if you’re serious about apologetics, you should, if only to keep your own notes in the margin. You mentioned you read it once a month. If you really want to get into apologetics, you might want to read it more frequently than that, concentrating on one section at a time. Check out the footnotes as well, preferably with your hard copy of the Bible at hand, along with access to other Church documents via the Vatican website. FWIW, I only got my copy about a year and a half ago, and find that, despite my lifelong faith, there is plenty that I either misunderstood, or I was still relying on what Sister St. Anthony said back in fifth grade. Our faith is a lot more complex, nuanced, and paradoxically, elegantly simple than that!

You will also want to get a good study Bible, make sure it is a Catholic Bible. While you’re at it, get a good Bible Concordance, and a couple of notebooks to make your own notes in. Consider joining a Catholic Bible study group: Call your diocese to see where they are offered in your particular diocese, and make sure that it’s led by a priest or a deacon, not just a group of lay people reading through some particular book of the Bible. Some diocesan seminaries offer courses in Scripture to lay people; they usually charge tuition, but they are college credit courses and graded.

You will not be able to successfully engage in apologetics without a broad knowledge base, including a good working knowledge of the Bible, Church history, Old Testament history, early New Testament history, Church documents, the early Church Fathers, Augustine, Aquinas, et al. It is very lengthy study, and requires more than a casual approach.

Protestants, especially evangelical Protestants, frequently intimidate Catholics because they can cite chapter and verse to support whatever point they are trying to make. Real profession of faith requires more than being able to memorize some verses of Scripture, and real apologetics requires the ability to use facts and logic to support faith. It’s a lifelong endeavor.

You’ve got your work cut out for you!

 

[FireFromHeaven]

Awesome odille. Just Awesome. :bowdown2:

 

[MichaelHowling]

mycatholiccds.com/im-not-being-fed.php

Jeff Cavins has a CD on this (authority) …it’s like 4 bucks. It’s really good. Memorize the above.

Once you establish authority…they need to come home.

God bless

 

[Victor2211]

Catholicism and Fundamentalism by Karl Keating and any book or CD by Scott Hahn

 

[revert_jen]

First they used Romans 3:23 and Romans 6:23 to demonstrate that all were sinners and worthy of hell.

Except for the Virgin Mary, I’m not going to disagree with that.

Then was Romans 5:8 that Christ died for those sins,

Again, no disagreement here.

ephesians 2:8-9 that only faith not works got one to heaven

They might want to have a peek at the first chapter of the letter of James. You might want to take a look at it too.

and then 1 John 5:13 to say that one must know you are saved. I said that one cannot know and we went around in circles. I pulled James 2:14-2:26 but he said these were just saying how if one was ungodly no one would listen too you. After that i bashed my head on his arguement due to my arrogant failure to study. Finally he gave me a pamphlet called The Gospel by Ronald Shea. I read it and it pretty much just expands on their main point that salvation is a free gift and cannot be earned.

We cannot earn salvation. That is completely true and consistent with Catholic doctrine. It is a free gift, which we are free to refuse by refusing to do God’s will. But by doing God’s will we can never be worthy of salvation, we can only be confident that God is faithful to His promises, and that Jesus’ death and resurrection opened the possibility of heaven for us.

I would suggest getting the Ignatius Study Bible and reading it all (well, “all” is just the New Testament at the moment, plus I think they have booklets for Genesis and Exodus). Reading a faithful interpretation helps you discuss things with people who have interpreted it in a different way.

And sometimes it helps to let them know which points you are not argiung with them about. Sometimes they have odd deas about what Catholics believe.

God’s blessings on your effort!

–Jen

 

[Aloysium]

. . . “As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).” . . . We are saved; we are being saved; we will be saved. Salvation: Past, Present, Future… not a one time event.

great quote, thx

 

[InspiritCarol]

…
My favorite response to them is this: “Who interpreted this for you?” …

Nah, the usual answer I get is “The Holy Spirit”.

To which one might say: “How do you know it’s the Holy Spirit?”

Answers to this vary, but generally - they just know.

To which one must claim an impass. Alas.

… all salvation is through the Catholic Church: If it weren’t for St. Jerome translating all the Aramaic and Greek writings into Latin, the Gospels and Acts would have been lost to oral tradition. If it weren’t for Catholic monks copying down Scripture through the Dark Ages, Protestants wouldn’t have Scripture that they cherish so much (not that I don’t cherish the Bible, and read it frequently.) And if you REALLY want to upset them, you can always tell them that they are already part of the Universal Church, but just don’t have access to the fullness of it yet, almost like going to a buffet and just being able to eat the hors d’ouerves and salad bar! Get ready to run if you take this stance–LOL!

You have me cracking up today.

I *really *want to say this to some of my friends, but that “lack of knowledge” you pointed out (which is endemic in Catholics, Protestants, and the rest of humanity alike) is generally accompanied by a lack of *desire *for knowledge.

But, it should be no surprise.

See, we’re asking them to make an extreme paradigm shift here. It’s no wonder they shut down when confronted with this kind of raw truth.

 

[CaptFun]

catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0039.html

This can be helpful … a Catholic apologetics cheat sheet

Many of the questions that get “asked” are of the “Catholics can never answer this …” variety. Keep confident. Almost blase. Calmly look up the answers to sincere questions.

Trick questions like Jesus used to get? Ignore them politely. They’re just traps. Jesus didn’t answer such … but often asked a counter question that was much better (toward holiness and away from human arguing).

The thing is not to argue so much.

If they argue with you, deflect first … but sound collegial. As in “I think we can find the answer to that question.” or

“I don’t know … maybe its … (and share what you know)” or “I don’t know offhand. I’ll see what the Church says. It always answers my questions … in fact the answers are so GOOD I find that some of my questions were silly or insincere (laugh at yourself in a self-deprecating way) … sometimes I’m just argumentative and rebellious”.

Does your Church have a Catechism? How do you know what it is teaching now?

For a question about the Bible … I always look to the Church of the Bible.

But keep in the Spirit. Jesus loves that other person who thinks they are saving you – but are actually helping you to a deeper level of your own faith – so treat them royally and respectfully so long as they are sincere in their search and not just slanderers of the Church Jesus founded and gave the promise to. (The gates of hell will not prevail against her!). You MAY learn together and have an ally - Jesus wants his servants to be one.

A couple “Catholic Church” Verses

http://blog.oregonlive.com/news_impact/2008/10/large_Slide1.jpg

Psalms 127:1 ** …* Unless the LORD build the house,*** they labor in vain who build. Unless the LORD guard the city, in vain does the guard keep watch.

(Jesus founded the Catholic Church … men founded the others) Similarly -

**Matthew 7:23 ** Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’

24 "Everyone who listens to these words of mine **and acts on them **will be like a wise man who built his house on rock.

25 The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and buffeted the house. But it did not collapse;*** it had been set solidly on rock.***

26 And everyone who listens to these words of mine* but does not act on them *will be like a fool who built his house on sand.

27 The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and buffeted the house. And it collapsed and was completely ruined."

28 When Jesus finished these words, the crowds were astonished at his teaching,

29 for he taught them as** one having authority,** and not as their scribes.

Bolded words above emphasize a Catholic teaching. Christ bulds his Church on Rock (Peter), sends it for to teach “Go and teach” (with authority). And does this before the CHURCH writes the New Testament and begins to teach about it.

Jesus often emphasizes “doing” or “going” - works (that demonstrate faith).

The Catholic Church is not “based on the Bible” but rather the “Church of the Bible” that wrote the New Testament and never forfeited its power TO the Bible.

“The Bible” calls “the Church” the pillar and foundation of truth. But the Bible of course makes no such claims for itself … let alone “Sola Scriptura” which is what some would call “unbiblical” < (another construct not found in the Bible but taught anyway).

 

[CaptFun]

I’m a fairly devout Catholic, and have been one all my life. I rarely engage in arguments with Protestants, as most of them believe that the Bible is the sole authority on all things of faith. They will tend to reject anything that cites tradition other than what is in the Bible.

My favorite response to them is this: “Who interpreted this for you?” They are usually at a loss to answer that question. My answer to that question is that the Church has had literally thousands of scholars and experts researching and meditating on these writings for over two thousand years. They rarely know how to respond to that, too.

In my experience, most Protestants that I have encountered are well-meaning, but only have a smattering of knowledge of both scripture and their own beliefs. They have some of the truth, but as a Church, we have the fullness of truth.

This is a little nasty, but if you really want to pick a fight with a Protestant, tell them that all salvation is through the Catholic Church: If it weren’t for St. Jerome translating all the Aramaic and Greek writings into Latin, the Gospels and Acts would have been lost to oral tradition. If it weren’t for Catholic monks copying down Scripture through the Dark Ages, Protestants wouldn’t have Scripture that they cherish so much (not that I don’t cherish the Bible, and read it frequently.) And if you REALLY want to upset them, you can always tell them that they are already part of the Universal Church, but just don’t have access to the fullness of it yet, almost like going to a buffet and just being able to eat the hors d’ouerves and salad bar! Get ready to run if you take this stance–LOL!

The biggest argument that I have with a church that does not have teaching authority is this: It seems to fall to every preaching clergyman to promote his own interpretation of what a particular passage is saying. That is akin to providing every American citizen with a copy of the Constitution and telling them to interpret it for themselves. Could you imagine the chaos that would result from that? All that would have to happen is someone misreading something and proceeding with behaviors based on that misread! I’m thinking of a particularly funny misinterpretation of the Second Amendment I saw on a bumper sticker once–“I support the right to keep and arm bears!”–but you get the idea! There are actually denominations of Protestantism that focus on one or two passages of Scripture: Look at the snake handlers, who base their snake handling on “just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert…”

Do you have a copy of the Catechism? For what it’s worth, you can access it online on the USCCB website. You can also buy a paperback copy, and if you’re serious about apologetics, you should, if only to keep your own notes in the margin. You mentioned you read it once a month. If you really want to get into apologetics, you might want to read it more frequently than that, concentrating on one section at a time. Check out the footnotes as well, preferably with your hard copy of the Bible at hand, along with access to other Church documents via the Vatican website. FWIW, I only got my copy about a year and a half ago, and find that, despite my lifelong faith, there is plenty that I either misunderstood, or I was still relying on what Sister St. Anthony said back in fifth grade. Our faith is a lot more complex, nuanced, and paradoxically, elegantly simple than that!

You will also want to get a good study Bible, make sure it is a Catholic Bible. While you’re at it, get a good Bible Concordance, and a couple of notebooks to make your own notes in. Consider joining a Catholic Bible study group: Call your diocese to see where they are offered in your particular diocese, and make sure that it’s led by a priest or a deacon, not just a group of lay people reading through some particular book of the Bible. Some diocesan seminaries offer courses in Scripture to lay people; they usually charge tuition, but they are college credit courses and graded.

You will not be able to successfully engage in apologetics without a broad knowledge base, including a good working knowledge of the Bible, Church history, Old Testament history, early New Testament history, Church documents, the early Church Fathers, Augustine, Aquinas, et al. It is very lengthy study, and requires more than a casual approach.

Protestants, especially evangelical Protestants, frequently intimidate Catholics because they can cite chapter and verse to support whatever point they are trying to make. Real profession of faith requires more than being able to memorize some verses of Scripture, and real apologetics requires the ability to use facts and logic to support faith. It’s a lifelong endeavor.

You’ve got your work cut out for you!

Thanks for an excellent and generous post odile53. There is some meat here.

Glad you didn’t get self-conscious and share just a little.