Calling all Catholics. Help

[FireFromHeaven]

Thanks.

 

[guanophore]

First they used Romans 3:23 and Romans 6:23 to demonstrate that all were sinners and worthy of hell. Then was Romans 5:8 that Christ died for those sins,

This is Catholic.

ephesians 2:8-9 that only faith not works got one to heaven

This is a heresy that arose during the Reformation . Yes, we are saved by grace, through faith, but a saving faith is a faith that works. Those works are never to be separated from the grace through faith that produces them. Just continue reading to v. 10.

and then 1 John 5:13 to say that one must know you are saved.

Actually, that verse does not say that. It says that the Apostle is writing to them so that they may know. If all that is contained in John’s epistles is true, then one may know.
The issue is the meaning of “in Christ”. The Apsotles taught that sin separates us from God, and that when we sin, we are not longer “in Christ”.

I said that one cannot know and we went around in circles. I pulled James 2:14-2:26 but he said these were just saying how if one was ungodly no one would listen too you.

Yes, I recommend that you not go into that circle. Change the discussion to talk about what perseverance means.

After that i bashed my head on his arguement due to my arrogant failure to study. Finally he gave me a pamphlet called The Gospel by Ronald Shea. I read it and it pretty much just expands on their main point that salvation is a free gift and cannot be earned.

Well, at least you came to the right place!

 

[guanophore]

Hello, Thanks for sharing. I have also ran into protestants that say all we need is faith to be saved. One parable that I bring up is the one where Jesus seperates the goats and the sheep Matthew 25:31-46. The people are being judged for there works, what they did while on earth. This clearly show that works and faith go hand in hand, not one or the other. Hope this helps. God bless.

Jesus is pretty clear that faith = obedience.

Matt 7:21-22

"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.

2 Cor 9:13
13 Through the testing of this ministry you glorify God by your obedience to the confession of the gospel of Christ

Rom 6:15-17
16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

Many Reformed Christians seem to think that the nature of sin has changed, and that people no longer can be enslaved by sin.

 

[guanophore]

From the bible how do we prove the necessity of the seven sacraments? Specifically the catholic beliefs about them?

I think it is difficult. Unless one reads the Bible with the Apostolic faith already, it is impossible for some people to see.

 

[Pax]

Goodness, I would ask where it says that in the Bible. Ask for book, chapter, and verse.

I’m surprised nobody has mentioned John Martignoni and the Bible Christian Society. You can find a lot of CDs or Mp3 dowloads there for free. He also covers strategy in his first talk, “Apologetics for the Scripturally Challenged.” You can find all of that here:

biblechristiansociety.com/home.php

Kay Cee,

As I read the thread, I was waiting to see if someone mentioned John Martignoni’s website and MP3 downloads. I second your motion and suggestion with high fives.

God bless

 

[fred_conty]

Back in 2007, somebody posted the following answer. I wish I remembered who it was so I could give proper credit. Anyways, here it is:

“Are you saved?” asks the Fundamentalist. The Catholic should reply: “As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).”

(So in a nut shell: We are saved; we are being saved; we will be saved. Salvation: Past, Present, Future… not a one time event.)

A short course in what you may expect from bible only people is by Patrick Madrid. It is called “Suprised by Truth”. He has actual protestant people, many are ministers, who converted and give the protestant beliefs along with the catholic replies they found. It is quite informative as well as fascinating.

If you get the book, do a lot of underlineing of points you want to remember. You might also write your own index to certain topics in the back of the book so you know where to find the answers.

He has also written “Surprised by Truth2” and Surprised by Truth3".

Scott Hahn has also witten a book “Home Sweet Rome”. It is the story of his conversion in which he gives the central points of his protestant thinking and the answers he found to them in the Catholic tradition. A very interesting book and very informative. When he was a protestant, he used those very same arguments on catholics himself.

If you read these books you will get a smattering of all sorts of teachings and the sources for answering them. From what you seem to be saying, you will eat it up.

Then after these, you will find plenty of other sources.
One other great advantage is that they convince you how true your own faith is.

These will spark you even further in your apologetic interests.

Just some thoughts, and best wishes on throwing our your fishing net.

 

[Goya]

First they used Romans 3:23 and Romans 6:23 to demonstrate that all were sinners and worthy of hell. Then was Romans 5:8 that Christ died for those sins, ephesians 2:8-9 that only faith not works got one to heaven and then 1 John 5:13 to say that one must know you are saved. I said that one cannot know and we went around in circles. I pulled James 2:14-2:26 but he said these were just saying how if one was ungodly no one would listen too you. After that i bashed my head on his arguement due to my arrogant failure to study. Finally he gave me a pamphlet called The Gospel by Ronald Shea. I read it and it pretty much just expands on their main point that salvation is a free gift and cannot be earned.

The thing about apologetics, is you have to know who you’re dealing with–you can’t spew out the same pre-scripted ‘canned apologetics’ to an atheist or aggie, that you’d serve up for a jew, a muslim, or a protestant–and within protestantism, there are an array of schools of thought, and emphasis–e.g.–evangelicals, pentacostals, Baptists, fundamentalists, Lutherans, Methodists, Presbytarians, reformed Calvinsts, univeral unitarians, etc.–each place a different emphasis on different doctrines and the like.

e.g.–lot’s of your ‘canned’ apologetics are aimed at Evagelicals–because they are the fastest growing, and they are the most common to take aim at the Catholic Church, and just almost diametrically opposed to the Church (sola script. vs. Tradition)–that is, they take a literal interpretation of the Bible, and dismiss Tradition, almost entierely; so you need to be well-versed in the actual language of the Bible, and be prepared to defend Catholic teaching almost exclusively on Scripture;

…but if you take those same prepared answers, and engage a Reformed Calvinist…you will have your own rear-end served to you, sunny side up. You have to know what the RC’s say about the Catholic Church; you have to know what they say about themselves; you have to know what they stand for (e.g.–TULIP). Calinists don’t rely exclusively on scripture–they have instead contorted the teachings of the Church Fathers–hence you have to become well versed in Church history, in order to correct the numerous false and out of context claims they may make regarding the Church Fathers…

…the point is that the attacks against Truth, come from every direction–and you must be prepared to defend accordingly. Illustration: a mote and a wall may be excellent defenses to a ground attack–but are not terribly effective against an aerial attack, or a naval attack. Similarly, being well versed in scripture is a great defense against fundamentalists…but not necessarily against those who seek to contort history, and pirate Tradition.

The bottom line–learning the Bible and the Catechism will not be sufficient. You must dig deeply in to Church history, to understand why the Catechism says what is says–and to understand how the Church has interpretted scpripture.

The upside, is that 99% of the issues you will ever encounter in ‘apologetics’–have been expressly addressed by the Church–in and thorugh synods, councils, encyclicals, and the like. The downside, is that 2,000 years of Church history, can’t be summarized into a single volume. History is the ‘3rd dimension’ of Faith education–and it is this dimesion, which gives context to the ‘surface’. Hence while the Catechism may be s a great place to start–it’s just a start. Next step, perhaps, should be the footnotes of the CCC–as they often reference the source of each statement in it.

…but there’s just no way around it–you have to learn Church history, and learn it well.

Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum

 

[FireFromHeaven]

The thing about apologetics, is you have to know who you’re dealing with–you can’t spew out the same pre-scripted ‘canned apologetics’ to an atheist or aggie, that you’d serve up for a jew, a muslim, or a protestant–and within protestantism, there are an array of schools of thought, and emphasis–e.g.–evangelicals, pentacostals, Baptists, fundamentalists, Lutherans, Methodists, Presbytarians, reformed Calvinsts, univeral unitarians, etc.–each place a different emphasis on different doctrines and the like.

e.g.–lot’s of your ‘canned’ apologetics are aimed at Evagelicals–because they are the fastest growing, and they are the most common to take aim at the Catholic Church, and just almost diametrically opposed to the Church (sola script. vs. Tradition)–that is, they take a literal interpretation of the Bible, and dismiss Tradition, almost entierely; so you need to be well-versed in the actual language of the Bible, and be prepared to defend Catholic teaching almost exclusively on Scripture;

…but if you take those same prepared answers, and engage a Reformed Calvinist…you will have your own rear-end served to you, sunny side up. You have to know what the RC’s say about the Catholic Church; you have to know what they say about themselves; you have to know what they stand for (e.g.–TULIP). Calinists don’t rely exclusively on scripture–they have instead contorted the teachings of the Church Fathers–hence you have to become well versed in Church history, in order to correct the numerous false and out of context claims they may make regarding the Church Fathers…

…the point is that the attacks against Truth, come from every direction–and you must be prepared to defend accordingly. Illustration: a mote and a wall may be excellent defenses to a ground attack–but are not terribly effective against an aerial attack, or a naval attack. Similarly, being well versed in scripture is a great defense against fundamentalists…but not necessarily against those who seek to contort history, and pirate Tradition.

The bottom line–learning the Bible and the Catechism will not be sufficient. You must dig deeply in to Church history, to understand why the Catechism says what is says–and to understand how the Church has interpretted scpripture.

The upside, is that 99% of the issues you will ever encounter in ‘apologetics’–have been expressly addressed by the Church–in and thorugh synods, councils, encyclicals, and the like. The downside, is that 2,000 years of Church history, can’t be summarized into a single volume. History is the ‘3rd dimension’ of Faith education–and it is this dimesion, which gives context to the ‘surface’. Hence while the Catechism may be s a great place to start–it’s just a start. Next step, perhaps, should be the footnotes of the CCC–as they often reference the source of each statement in it.

…but there’s just no way around it–you have to learn Church history, and learn it well.

Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum

Do you know any good websites or books for learning this? Maybe a podcast?

 

[pablope]

Do you know any good websites or books for learning this? Maybe a podcast?

Go to calledtocommunion.com

 

[FireFromHeaven]

I am sorry. I did not mean websites to learn about reformed debate (though that site will be useful). I meant books, websites and podcasts to learn about Church history and the Fathers of the Church.

 

[Goya]

Do you know any good websites or books for learning this? Maybe a podcast?

Happy to share what I have with ya’…

Pardon the cut & paste job, but I see no reason to re-invent the wheel. I happened to have assembled and posted this in another thread here a couple of weeks ago–so here it is again:

Catholic Apologetics

---

I’m not an expert apologist, so I can’t really offer much first hand advice in that sense; however, I can refer you to a number of sites I often use, and link. Unfortunately, I lost many bookmarked sites when my computer crashed recently–and have been slowly re-establishing the ‘collection’–that process is part of what brought me here. Anyway, here are a few sources I’ve been able to find again:

************the Eucharist: *********

therealpresence.org/eucharst/a.html

******************Catecheses ***********

St. Augustine’s Enchiridion on Faith, Hope, and Love:

tertullian.org/fathers/au…n_02_trans.htm

Catech. of St. Thomas Aquinas:

cin.org/users/james/ebook…nas/aindex.htm

Catechism simplified:

catholicity.com/catechism/

Catechism of the Catholic Church --TOC by paragraph number (links to referenced sections):

scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc2.htm

***********the Bible/scripture: ****

John Salza’s site of the biblical basis for Catholicism:

scripturecatholic.com/

Rev. Graham’s classic, How We got the Bible, on line:

catholicapologetics.info/…ism/wbible.htm

****Church Fathers

Primer by Joe Gallegos–

catholicfidelity.com/a-pr…-joe-gallegos/

General:

churchfathers.org/

northforest.org/EarlyChur…chFathers.html

Peter’s primacy:

catholic.com/tracts/peters-primacy

Schott Hahn’s St. Paul Center for Apologetics–a virtual treasure trove of apologetic material (and portal to Joe Gallegos’ collections of docs by early Church Fathers on identified issues):

salvationhistory.com/libr…ry/apologetics

Mary**

Marian Apologetics portal:

catholicbasictraining.com…texts/mary.htm

Queen of Angels foundation:

thequeenofangels.com/mary…n-apologetics/

Ark of the New Covenenant by Patrick Madrid:

archive.catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9112fea1.asp

**Misc. apologetics ***********

St. Alphonsus Liguori’s History of Heresies and their Refutation:

saintsbooks.net/books/St…Refutation.pdf

A site established by former reformed Calvinists who converted to Catholicism, about Church doctrine (largely from the perspective of their conversion stories):

calledtocommunion.com/

---

God bless!

From: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=762233&page=2

Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.

 

[Goya]

As for the part about knowing which sects emphasize what doctrine…that’s much too involved to attempt to broadbrush; you pretty much have to figure that one out on a case by case basis.

And for that, you MUST listen–let the other guys tell you what they stand for; listen intently; take good notes; make sure you understand what they’re telling you–ask questions to clarify, and to compel them to take a stance (you’ll be surprised how many times the folks you engage, will attempt to play both ends of an issue–abonding one for the other, when it may appear they have chosen wrongly–or otherwise hedge their language–so you want to ‘pin them down’, or make sure you know where they stand–and that they know that you know where they stand)…

You’re eons ahead of me kid…at your age…nevermind.

I’m pray’n for you…and very proud and encouraged over your eagerness to learn and to defend the Faith.

Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.

 

[FireFromHeaven]

Thank you for the resources. By the way what does your signature mean?

 

[Goya]

Thank you for the resources. By the way what does your signature mean?

May the peace of the Lord be with you always.

Pax = Peace
Domini=the Lord
Sit=may
Semper=Always
Vobiscum=be with you

Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.

 

[FireFromHeaven]

Thanks. He also said how the apostolic churches werent the only churches until the reformation. He claimed a small few taught as he did until now. I doubt it but is there such a group? If not how do we answer this?

 

[lynnanine]

I’d just like to drop in and recommend a book called “Does the Bible Really Say That?” by Patrick Madrid (store.patrickmadrid.com/does-the-bible-really-say-that/) I got it a while back from my godmother and only recently read it. It’s quite helpful. I saw a few people mention other books to read, but I don’t think anyone has pointed out this one yet.

 

[FireFromHeaven]

For the other Protestant schools of thought like the Baptists, Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodists and Adventists what is recommended for study? For that matter what exactly are our doctrinal differences with the above groups?

 

[Tony_the_mad]

From the bible how do we prove the necessity of the seven sacraments? Specifically the catholic beliefs about them?

You don’t need to prove the necessity of the seven Sacraments, only their grace and importance.

The Sacraments are necessary in the sense that they are the primary method (along with preaching the gospel) that Christ chose to save the Church. But that is too subtle of a point to make in my opinion and misses the main point entirely.

What I would say is that the ONLY thing necessary for salvation it the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ. But that Christ and the Church calls us to do MUCH more than what is strictly necessary. How good of a parent would you be if you merely gave your child what was necessary. (Even the pagans do that.)

Christ gave us his own Body to feed off. But, he also ensures that those who do not (or cannot) eat that food still are spiritually fed. Should we not strive to be spiritually fed through all the methods he gave us. And in particular, should we not celebrate the special feast he made just for our Salvation.

The same can be said of all of the Sacraments. You can attain salvation with other Baptisms than the baptism of water; but should we do only that which is merely necessary? Should we not seek out that which Christ gave us through his disciples when he said ‘go out to all the world and baptize them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit’.

We must ask ourselves, do we want to be the rich man who merely kept the commandments (who Jesus love for doing so) or do we want to be the disciple who gives all we have and follow the Lord? Do we want to be the 9 lepers who received the grace of God but did no return or the 1 who returned to thank Jesus? Do we want to be like Zacheus who gave tithes in penance or do we want to be like those many others that Jesus dined with?

In the Catholic Church we are not called merely to be saved but to be Saints. Christ came not merely to give us the path to Salvation but He has also given us special gifts in the Sacraments to help us become closer to Him.

(I apologize for the rant, I am quite frustrated because too many Catholics are buying into the nonsense that the Sacraments are not important. Our Church is being hurt quite a bit because our people are loosing touch with the sacraments.)

 

[Tony_the_mad]

As for the part about knowing which sects emphasize what doctrine…that’s much too involved to attempt to broadbrush; you pretty much have to figure that one out on a case by case basis.

And for that, you MUST listen–let the other guys tell you what they stand for; listen intently; take good notes; make sure you understand what they’re telling you–ask questions to clarify, and to compel them to take a stance (you’ll be surprised how many times the folks you engage, will attempt to play both ends of an issue–abonding one for the other, when it may appear they have chosen wrongly–or otherwise hedge their language–so you want to ‘pin them down’, or make sure you know where they stand–and that they know that you know where they stand)…

You’re eons ahead of me kid…at your age…nevermind.

I’m pray’n for you…and very proud and encouraged over your eagerness to learn and to defend the Faith.

Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.

I strongly support the listening aspect.

 

[FireFromHeaven]

You don’t need to prove the necessity of the seven Sacraments, only their grace and importance.

The Sacraments are necessary in the sense that they are the primary method (along with preaching the gospel) that Christ chose to save the Church. But that is too subtle of a point to make in my opinion and misses the main point entirely.

What I would say is that the ONLY thing necessary for salvation it the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ. But that Christ and the Church calls us to do MUCH more than what is strictly necessary. How good of a parent would you be if you merely gave your child what was necessary. (Even the pagans do that.)

Christ gave us his own Body to feed off. But, he also ensures that those who do not (or cannot) eat that food still are spiritually fed. Should we not strive to be spiritually fed through all the methods he gave us. And in particular, should we not celebrate the special feast he made just for our Salvation.

The same can be said of all of the Sacraments. You can attain salvation with other Baptisms than the baptism of water; but should we do only that which is merely necessary? Should we not seek out that which Christ gave us through his disciples when he said ‘go out to all the world and baptize them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit’.

We must ask ourselves, do we want to be the rich man who merely kept the commandments (who Jesus love for doing so) or do we want to be the disciple who gives all we have and follow the Lord? Do we want to be the 9 lepers who received the grace of God but did no return or the 1 who returned to thank Jesus? Do we want to be like Zacheus who gave tithes in penance or do we want to be like those many others that Jesus dined with?

In the Catholic Church we are not called merely to be saved but to be Saints. Christ came not merely to give us the path to Salvation but He has also given us special gifts in the Sacraments to help us become closer to Him.

(I apologize for the rant, I am quite frustrated because too many Catholics are buying into the nonsense that the Sacraments are not important. Our Church is being hurt quite a bit because our people are loosing touch with the sacraments.)

Thank you. If I gave the idea that I thought the sacraments unnecessary I apologize. I was asking how to show how necessary they are to a bible only fundamentalist.