Calling herself a devout Catholic, leading U.S. politician says banning abortion ignores basic morality

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Nelka said:
Is she a lapsed catholic or just not a catholic?
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She describes herself as a devout Catholic. She was born in a Catholic family and has been raised Catholic, and has raised her own children as Catholic.

She subscribes to our “common creed” and is recognized as a Catholic by our “common authorities,” which are the only criteria I have seen offered on this thread.

This thread isn’t about whether those are enough, but about whether she really believes, I think. Multiple common Catholic beliefs with which she does not agree have been offered to justify the discussion.
 
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He likely is in the loosest sense possible, but aside from that it should be taken with the grain of salt like Nancy Pelosi. You did say he lies so even more so, though I’d prefer to admitting ignorance than taking a view.
 
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Normally that is left done by one’s bishop. I’m not giving excuses for the Pope but just sayin.
 
Dovekin said:
She describes herself as a devout Catholic.
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Maybe in her district very few go to Church. That would be my guess as to why she’d make that statement. FWIW, she gets like 85% of the vote.
 
mdgspencer said:
The California congresswoman [has described herself as a “devout practicing Catholic.”
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I see many of my old friends on this thread, so let’s not re-hash too much, OK? I am addressing the new folks.

Pelosi is a “devout practicing Catholic.” So am I. And–as I’ve said multiple times–I agree with the Church’s views on abortion.

However. A BIG however. We do not live in a theocracy. The latest Gallup poll on the subject says only 17% of the US population agrees with the Church’s position (that abortion should always be illegal–although the Church says a mortal sin, not “illegal”). The other 83% of the population has a wide range of views. Other religions–including a lot of Protestant religions, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, etc.–don’t believe that a “human being” is created at the moment of conception. They choose other times.

The question is, do I have the right (or obligation, or responsibility, or whatever word you want to use) to impose my personal beliefs and the beliefs of my own Church on those who do not share those beliefs? I would turn to the Catechism:

1738-- “Freedom is exercised in relationships between human beings. Every human person, created in the image of God, has the natural right to be recognized as a free and responsible being. All owe to each other this duty of respect. The ‘right to the exercise of freedom’ , especially in moral and religious matters, is an inalienable requirement of the dignity of the human person. This right must be recognized and protected by civil authority within the limits of the common good and public order.”

And Nancy and I agree with the catechism. We are NOT pro-abortion. We are anti-abortion. But we simply recognize the right (“inalienable” in the words of the Catechism) of other people to exercise their own moral and religious freedom. Each person has the right to decide what to do in the case of abortion. (And yes, “within the limits of the common good and public order”–thus polygamy and sexual abuse of children are both illegal. Abortion is not. It’s not a question (as many have twisted the logic) voting on morality. It’s a question of accepting that, yes, there may be an “absolute” moral law, but that this is interpreted differently by different religions and people. And, in democracies (please don’t bang on about “This is a republic…”), “the common good and public order” is a matter for the majority (83% in this case) to decide.)
 
Erikaspirit16 said:
Each person has the right to decide what to do in the case of abortion.
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Actually, they don’t. The child has no say, and that is the difference that keeps getting omitted. How can I not have the right to abuse the child, but have the right to kill it? Simple. I must make a determination on personhood, just like the country once had to do about people of color. Slavery did not matter, if black people were not fully human.

So, while Nancy Pelosi may believe what they church does about abortion, in theory, either she does not believe what the Church teaches about why abortion is immoral, namely, that the unborn child is a person with human dignity, or she must believe it to be acceptable for one person to subject their will over another to the point of death, if the one is more powerful.

Even if we concede that we cannot know, or define personhood, humanity, or life, the right to choose an abortion mandates that it is better to err on the side of murder than on the side of inconvenience.

I am also addressing “new folks.”
 
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Erikaspirit16 said:
Yet again you assume that early abortions are “murder.” Once again, that’s YOUR position and the Church’s position. Again, only a small minority of the US voting population believes that.
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I am positing that this is one of two possibilities. Abortion is murder or it is not, based on whether the child is a person, or is. In every other matter of law, we are required to err on the side of not committing murder. I cannot commit an act which may or may not result in the death of another, unless it is an abortion. Without knowing that the child at some point is not a person, then abortion is an action which might result in murder.
Erikaspirit16 said:
But here you are assuming that everyone agrees that “child” = cell created at conception. But that’s a minority position in the US. I fully understand that it is YOUR position and the position of the Catholic Church, but it is NOT the position of the vast majority of the population.
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No, I don’t. However, those who claim to follow the Catholic Church should believe it. That is truly a difference between being a Catholic. Even when one is in the minority, it is still laudable to support that which is right, whether it be abolition, civil rights for all, are that Jews should not be killed. Going along with the majority is not always the right thing.

And this stuff about a few cells being a child or not is not why I say Nancy Pelosi is pro-abortion, not just pro-choice. She also voted against a ban on partial birth abortions, except to save a mother’s life, something few Americans agree with, and most see as the murder it is.
 
Erikaspirit16 said:
OK, we’ll pretend we’ve never done this before! Fun!
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I do not mind you bringing this up, but you should have known it was not going to go unanswered. I do not know why you last post went dark, but I would hope that others would take note that this discussion has to move past the bumper sticker rhetoric that both sides used. You pointed out a difference that most do not see, that between being for the right to choose abortion, and promoting abortion. For many, I see this distinction. I do not think the evidence supports this for Pelosi based on the evidence above. Someone who is supporting this right as reflection of our plurality would not have promoted the right to partial-birth abortions, or for any abortion for a viable child, one who has his own life to live. This is a position most Americans do not agree with.
 
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Erikaspirit16 said:
The latest Gallup poll on the subject says only 17% of the US population agrees with the Church’s position (that abortion should always be illegal–although the Church says a mortal sin, not “illegal”).
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Matthew 7
“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
Erikaspirit16 said:
The question is, do I have the right (or obligation, or responsibility, or whatever word you want to use) to impose my personal beliefs and the beliefs of my own Church on those who do not share those beliefs?
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Great point, nobody has the right to impose their beliefs on a baby (“created in image of God” - see 1738 you cited) by killing it or having someone else kill it.
Erikaspirit16 said:
And Nancy and I agree with the catechism. We are NOT pro-abortion. We are anti-abortion
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No your post misrepresents the Catechism because “human person, created in image of God” in Catechism extends to baby in womb and thus all abortion violates the Catechism since amounts to violation of baby’s “natural right to be recognized as a free and responsible being”
 
If the Bishop were to excommunicate her, the backlash from the media would be almost unfathomable.

Headline… “Catholic Church Dictates U.S. Politics”… Boy, the anti-Catholics would be all over this.

Then, the next round of Catholic persecutions would start by the existing anti-Catholics and the anti-Catholics that would be anew from the controversy.

If anyone is a troublemaker in the Catholic Church, it’s Nancy Pelosi.
 
“She knows more than the Pope on the issue”… LOL…

Is that why she funds Planned Parenthood? Issues of reproductive health do not belong to Planned Parenthood Abortionists. Those issues are, for the most part, b/w the mother and her normal reproductive health doctor. Anything outside of that is rooted in deep selfishness.

We’re talking about the intentional killing of healthy, sinless innocents. Her inadequacy as a human being in the career she has chosen has made her seriously blind. . . .
 
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I read the short article but didn’t watch the 27 minute video. If you did, does she at any point define why she feels abortions are moral or why the laws about abortion are moral? I’m curious as to her reasoning.

If she proclaimed that she felt abortions are immoral but has to represent her constituents who are not antiabortion, I’d at least give her credit for representing them over her own feelings but…I don’t think she’s ever said that?
 
I’m not getting involved in this any more, but since most of you seem not to know Nancy Pelosi’s actual positions, here they are:

Her statement on partial birth abortions: Pelosi Statement on Federal Court Ruling That Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Is Unconstitutional

Here’s the best I can find on her personal opinion on abortion, an interview with Roll Call, Jan. 13, 2016. It’s worth noting that NARAL criticized her for her comments.

www.rollcall.com

Pelosi: I’m Not for Abortion on Demand - Roll Call

House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi sees the recent Republican attempt to defund Planned Parenthood as an “insult to the intelligence and judgment of women.” Asked if she had watched any of the undercover sting videos of Planned Parenthood officials discussing harvesting fetal body parts for...
www.rollcall.com www.rollcall.com

She said ““No,’’ she said, “I don’t believe in abortion on demand, I don’t believe in abortion on demand. I’m talking about the health of the mother and the child and this is not a decision that a politician should be making. This is about a woman’s judgment. This is about respect — respect — for women…”

Agree or disagree, but at least know what she actually said, not what Fox News says she said.
 
lonegreywolf20 said:
When Republicans are pro-life for all, then maybe I will follow the teaching.
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The usual dodge.
For the devout Roman Catholic with a clear understanding of Divine law and moral theology, there is no crime greater than abortion.
 
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Erikaspirit16 said:
She said ““No,’’ she said, “I don’t believe in abortion on demand, I don’t believe in abortion on demand. I’m talking about the health of the mother and the child and this is not a decision that a politician should be making. This is about a woman’s judgment. This is about respect — respect — for women…”
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talking out of both sides of her mouth.
 
Thank you. Since I have a clear understanding of Divine law and moral theology, I will keep thinking that.
 
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