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PRmerger
Guest
Ah, yes, I see.
But you really did not respond to the non-exhaustive list I provided. It simply is mind-boggling and speaks for itself.
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But you really did not respond to the non-exhaustive list I provided. It simply is mind-boggling and speaks for itself.
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PRmerger
Guest
I believe Scripture also says that we must love God with our entire mind, heart, soul and strength.
This CAF is the “mind” part, where we can share the Truth and discuss and dispute the veracity of others’ comments.
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O.S.Luke
Guest
That 33,000 number is a bunch of marlarky - and lends more credence that your posts are posts of derision rather than Christian apologetics.Again, the posts are not only addressed to you, Ginger. Even if you don’t want to acknowledge the existence of at least 33,000 Christian denominations (and now up to 40,000 by my estimate), I believe that lurkers here who are searching and open to the truth will see the great fallacy of fallible men interpreting Scipture to their own destruction.
If you want to use that definition that was used in Barrett’s Encyclopedia, then you have to use the same methodology how that number was arrived at, which means there are 242 denominations of Roman Catholics, 168 denominations of Anglicans, and 781 denominations of Orthodox (wow - there are fewer Anglican denominations than Roman Catholic??? I’ll be darned!!! Maybe I should cross the Thames instead of the Tiber or Bosphorus!).
To quote Barrett, where you get that number of 33,000 (33,909 to be exact):
So yes, if you want to use that methodology to arrive at that number, there are 33,000 denominations… of which 242 of them are Roman Catholic (again, by Barrett’s definition, Roman Catholic is a denomination).
Now… are you comfortable with that?
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PRmerger
Guest
Again, if these Roman Catholic churches submit to the authority of the Holy Father, then they are all ONE church. If they don’t, then they give credence to the fact that Sola Scriptura is what’s malarky and produces such division.
And, yes, I’m comfortable with calling Catholicism a denomination.
You simply cannot deny that each of those churches listed has different doctrines than each of the others. They all read the Bible and decided for themselves on issues such as baptism, the rapture, OSAS, homosexuality, divorce, etc etc etc. The same Bible verses and such different interpretations.
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O.S.Luke
Guest
If you’re comfortable with it, great. Let your conscience be your guide. I don’t think you read the criteria very carefully. If you did - you are being less than honest in your apologetics.Again, if these Roman Catholic churches submit to the authority of the Holy Father, then they are all ONE church. If they don’t, then they give credence to the fact that Sola Scriptura is what’s malarky and produces such division.
And, yes, I’m comfortable with calling Catholicism a denomination.
You simply cannot deny that each of those churches listed has different doctrines than each of the others. They all read the Bible and decided for themselves on issues such as baptism, the rapture, OSAS, homosexuality, divorce, etc etc etc. The same Bible verses and such different interpretations.
You’re saying there are 200-some denominations of Roman Catholics? And fewer Anglican denominations than there are Roman Catholics?
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PRmerger
Guest
Hey, I didn’t say I read the criteria. I’m working on that right now, 'kay?
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Marsha_Adams
Guest
Sure, we can be comfortable with that. We’ll just bring the 33,909 Protestant denominations into reality. 242 Roman Catholic = 1 Church, 33,909 Protestant denominations = 142 denominations. Does that suit you better? The difference remains there is only 1 Church and a scandalous number of Protestant sects.
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alanjeddy
Guest
Ginger I am giving you another chance. To all Protestants watch how Ginger will run away and hide. She can’t refute what I am saying. What emerges from her is anger. She doesn’t respond to the challenge because she doesn’t know how to.
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PRmerger
Guest
It seems quite peculiar that you referred me to that site, because it affirms everything I’ve claimed.
In fact, here’s a quote from that site: "Thus the Roman Catholic Church, although a single organization, is described here as consisting of 236 denominations in the world’s 238 countries.”
However, let’s just go with the “independent” churches–which have come up with their own doctrines based on Scripture–that number 22,000 (some examples below)
African Independent Apostolic
Black American Apostolic
Filipino Apostolic
Indian Apostolic
another 8 groups have “Apostolic”
African Independent Charismatic
Black American Charismatic
Chinese Charismatic
another 14 groups have “Charismatic” or “Neocharismatic”
African Independent Full Gospel
Black American Full Gospel
Chinese Full Gospel
another 10 groups have “Full Gospel”
three have something-“grassroots”
another 20 groups have “house-church network” or “cell-based network”
five have “Messianic”-something
another 14 are something-“neocharismatic”
another 12 are something-“Oneness pentecostal”
another 18 are something-“pentecostal”
another 12 are something-“radio/TV believers [or “network”]” (i.e. the “pastor” for these independent Christians is some personality on radio or TV)
final 2 on page 17 are something-“Spiritual”
then we have a couple deliverence/pentecostal groups
Word of Faith / Prosperity groups
a couple of “mixed traditions”
some “Zionist” groups
Independent Anglicans or Anglo-Catholic groups in both Catholic and Protestant directions
Independent Adventists
apocalyptic or eschatological (“end times”) groups
Independent Baptists
British-Israelites
Hidden Buddhist believers in Christ
some Independent Orthodox groups
independent Christian Brethren (Plymouth Brethren)
schismatic Conservative Catholics
Independent Congregational, Congregationalists
Independent Disciple, Restorationist, Christian
Independent Dunkers (Tunker, Dipper)
Independent Exclusive Brethren (Closed, Strict)
episcopi vagantes (“wandering” bishops-at-large, very small under 100 members)
Independent Estonian Orthodox
Independent Anglican Evangelical
Independent Fundamentalist
Gay/Lesbian homosexual tradition (i.e. so-called “gay churches” such as Metropolitan Community Churches)
Independent Greek Orthodox
Hidden Hindu believers in Christ
Holiness or Conservative Methodist (non-Pentecostal)
Independent Hungarian Orthodox
Independent Jehovah’s Witnesses
Messianic, Jewish-Christian congregations
Independent “Latin-rite” Catholics
Independent “Liberal” Catholics (Theosophical, Masonic, Gnostic)
another seven Independent Protestant or Orthodox churches
Hidden Muslim believers in Christ
Independent Assyrian or Nestorian
No-Church Movement
Non-denominational (no church or anti-church groups)
Old Believer, Old Ritualist
Old Catholics (i.e. split from Rome after Vatican Council I)
Old Calendarist (Authentic Orthodox)
various schisms from Orthodoxy, in Protestant directions
Orthodox sect/sectarian
Independent Friends (Quakers)
three indy “Reformed” groups (Anglican, Catholic, Orthodox)
more Independent Reformed or Orthodox
Independent Spiritualist, spiritists, occultists
Traditionalist Anglicans
True Orthodox (Conservative Russian Orthodox)
Independent Ukrainian Orthodox
United church (various united bodies)
community church or union congregation
ethnic or monoethnic denominations
independent evangelicals (dispensationalist)
marginal independent Christian (Black / Third-World)
isolated radio churches (unorganized)
single autonomous congregations
I’ll concede and say it’s only 22,000 churches–still a Big Yikes that Sola Scriptura cannot be true.
Truly, Luke, that list above does not give you pause?
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PRmerger
Guest
You know, Luke, the more I read of the article by PhilVaz the more perplexed I am that you would refer me to that site as a Protestant.
PhilVaz is a prolific poster on these forums and, from what I can see, seems to be quite orthodox and loyal to the teachings of the Catholic Church.
In fact, did you see this quote from the article: “However, since virtually all of these western and smaller eastern rites are in union with the Pope (I am not sure of some of them), there is actually one Catholic Church, not 242 churches or denominations”
While he does acknowledge that there are some problems with deducing the true total denominations:
“When dividing these “denominations” by country as they do, there are definitely some problems in figuring out the true total “denominations” **since many of them are being counted more than once – and in fact 241 times too much in the case of “Roman Catholic” denominations **”
as I said, I’d be happy to use the figure of 22,000. Or, let’s even say 2,000.
Isn’t the existence of* even more than one denomination *testament that Sola Scriptura cannot possibly be true? If all you need is the Bible to tell you what’s true, then everyone should read this, for example, “Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you shall not have life within you” and come to the same conclusion.
PhilVaz is a prolific poster on these forums and, from what I can see, seems to be quite orthodox and loyal to the teachings of the Catholic Church.
In fact, did you see this quote from the article: “However, since virtually all of these western and smaller eastern rites are in union with the Pope (I am not sure of some of them), there is actually one Catholic Church, not 242 churches or denominations”
While he does acknowledge that there are some problems with deducing the true total denominations:
“When dividing these “denominations” by country as they do, there are definitely some problems in figuring out the true total “denominations” **since many of them are being counted more than once – and in fact 241 times too much in the case of “Roman Catholic” denominations **”
as I said, I’d be happy to use the figure of 22,000. Or, let’s even say 2,000.
Isn’t the existence of* even more than one denomination *testament that Sola Scriptura cannot possibly be true? If all you need is the Bible to tell you what’s true, then everyone should read this, for example, “Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you shall not have life within you” and come to the same conclusion.
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O.S.Luke
Guest
I’ll quote anyone when it gets at the truth of something, Catholic or Protestant.Isn’t the existence of* even more than one denomination *testament that Sola Scriptura cannot possibly be true? If all you need is the Bible to tell you what’s true, then everyone should read this, for example, “Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you shall not have life within you” and come to the same conclusion.
You won’t get any argument from me that Sola Scriptura isn’t true - but I am a United Methodist and we are Anglican where that is concerned (the three-legged stool of scripture, tradition, and reason).
Fair enough. My question is: why use a number that you know is wrong?
Using an inflated figure is hyperbole and dishonest apologetics. No matter what side of the argument you are on. And hyperbole in Christian apologetics is never acceptable nor helpful.
Of course more than 1 church is less than ideal. Which Church is the right one? The Roman Catholic?
I am sure the Orthodox would disagree. [sigh]
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alanjeddy
Guest
You are all geting caught up in a numbers game. Whether it’s 36,000 or 30,000 or 22,000 different Protestant denominations is irrelevavnt. Everyone knows there is disunity within the various Protestant faiths. Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide = countless interpretations== countless denominations.
Watch the Journey home on monday nights on EWTN. So many Protestants are coming home to the Catholic Church because of this very issue. Marcus Grodi, a former Lutheran is the host. Of course Scott Hahn is probably the greatest Protestant theologian to come home to the church.
Watch the Journey home on monday nights on EWTN. So many Protestants are coming home to the Catholic Church because of this very issue. Marcus Grodi, a former Lutheran is the host. Of course Scott Hahn is probably the greatest Protestant theologian to come home to the church.
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O.S.Luke
Guest
Again, for the nth time… not all Protestants subscribe to the solas. Most notably the Anglican and Methodist branch.
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PRmerger
Guest
I happen to believe that 33,000 underestimates the number of Christian denominations and that the number is closer to 40,000. Plus.
However, I’d be willing to use the number 20,000, or 2,000 or even 200 because they all still prove the point that if one strays from the authority of the RCC, then the fruit of this folly becomes evident.
I think I’m being quite *gracious *about the statistic, don’t you think?
I said that I’ll accept 2,000 when the actual number is actually over 40,000.Interestingly enough, while I was forming this email a friend from my parish sent me a youtube video about a guy named “Louie Giglio”. I’d never heard of him and googled him and found this on Wikipedia: “Louie and his wife, Shelley, were members of North Point Community Church for thirteen years until the founding of Passion City Church.”
Now, I may be mistaken, but I’m guessing the founding of “Passion City Church” was due to doctrinal differences after reading the same Bible.
Kind of makes you realize that the number of splinter churches is probably way way way more than 40,000.I believe so! It was founded 2000 years ago by Christ. When did the Methodist Church come into the picture?
I am not an apologist for the Orthodox, and can’t comment on that.
O
O.S.Luke
Guest
You know the answer to that - so why ask it?
This is dishonest apologetics; the same reason why a good man like Scott Hahn doesn’t debate someone like James White. I fear that I am finding that sometimes even some (not all) Catholics are more interested in one-upmanship than honest apologetics.
Pax vobiscum.
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PRmerger
Guest
Actually, Luke, I don’t. I was going to put “when did John Wesley establish the Methodist Church” but deleted it because I’m not certain that it *was *Wesley or John Calvin or Campbell who started your particular denomination.
But I acknowledge that I knew that it is not the Church founded by Christ 2000 years ago, so perhaps you are correct in saying that I knew the answer. It was a rhetorical question nonetheless, illustrating my assertion that there’s only One True Church.
And speaking of dishonesty, Luke, can you* honestly *say that you know why Scott Hahn doesn’t debate James White? How in the world would you know this? To state as a fact that “the same reason why a good man like Scott Hahn doesn’t debate someone like James White” is because he’s dishonest is…well…dishonest. You have absolutely no idea why there’s been no debate with White.
It could very well be that James White is the one who’s doing the declining.
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alanjeddy
Guest
Speaking of James White , I listened to his debate with Jimmy Akin from Catholic Answers. I don’t think either side delivered a knock-out punch. Protestants will say White won while Catholics will say the antithesis occured. So if Akin could hold his own with White I have to believe that Scott Hahn would have been a much more formidable opponent.
It was interesting when they debated sola fide or justification by faith alone. I wonder why Akin didn’t bring up Matthew 25:31-46. Our final report card so to speak. Here Jesus talks about sins of omission. Every time we fail to feed the hungry, give drink to those who thirst, clothe the naked etc. we are failing to see the face of Jesus in all our neighbors who are in need of our Christian charity. The reality is that we are not administering to the least of His brethren. In the end we are leaving Jesus unattended. Jesus said if you love me then feed my sheep. If we do not put our faith to work for the glory of God we all run the risk of being on Jesus’ left hand side with all the goats. Where does Jesus send them?
Matthew 25:31-46 is of extreme importance to all Christians.
It was interesting when they debated sola fide or justification by faith alone. I wonder why Akin didn’t bring up Matthew 25:31-46. Our final report card so to speak. Here Jesus talks about sins of omission. Every time we fail to feed the hungry, give drink to those who thirst, clothe the naked etc. we are failing to see the face of Jesus in all our neighbors who are in need of our Christian charity. The reality is that we are not administering to the least of His brethren. In the end we are leaving Jesus unattended. Jesus said if you love me then feed my sheep. If we do not put our faith to work for the glory of God we all run the risk of being on Jesus’ left hand side with all the goats. Where does Jesus send them?
Matthew 25:31-46 is of extreme importance to all Christians.
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PRmerger
Guest
Throughout the day I’ve been reading the article by PhilVaz, that was cited by O.S. Luke. It seemed to me a very peculiar reference to cite as it did not refute Luke’s claim that this 33,000 denominations issue is “malarky”.
Indeed, I was quite surprised to see this at the bottom of PhilVaz’s article:
Your Total “Christian Denominations” Count for today is** 40857 **
Please pray for Christian unity (John 17; Eph 4:5; Matt 16:18)
It seems that the site has a “Christian Denominations” counter and today the count is over 40,000…
I think the article cited by Luke is the final nail on the coffin that the 33,000 Christian denominations claim is “malarky”.
O
O.S.Luke
Guest
I was just going by what had been posted by other Catholics here at CAF and other places. I have no reason to disbelieve them. James White is a dishonest blowhard, and Hahn is a gentleman.
As far as numbers, if you’re ok with it, good. I personally don’t think there are 200+ Roman Catholics, but if you do, more power to you.
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PRmerger
Guest
I thought I showed you where the site said that there’s only 1 Catholic Church.
"However, since virtually all of these western and smaller eastern rites are in union with the Pope (I am not sure of some of them), there is actually one Catholic Church, not 242 churches or denominations" PhilVaz
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