Calvin or Luther or someone else?

[Telestia]

**I thank God for the Gift of eternal life through the faith of Jesus Christ who died the death we deserved, and whose blood save us for all time., and it has proven to be exactly that, a gift that we could never earn. **

1 Jn 1:5-10
This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.
NASU

**Where in this scripture does it say we must make ourselves become sinless? Does not John declare that if we say we have not sinned, We make Him a liar and His word is not in us? Jesus died in our place, His blood washes away our sins, once and forever. It does not mean we can now practice sin, but we must remember our humanity in that we do sin.

For ‘If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.’

But ‘If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.’

I simply believe the words that John wrote and am fully confident that “… He is faithful and righteous to forgive us of my sins and to cleanse our [including me] from all unrighteousness.” A work he will do in me. Why should I not trust Him do what He said he would do, why would I ever want to take that awful burden of being sinless upon my own shoulders. I am joyful for what God has done for me.

Holiness is not the absence of sin in my life, for a rock is sinless and yet not holy, but I am Holy because of the very presence of God in my life.**

God made it so easy to be saved, and have eternal life, and be in His fellowship, and we with one another…

But many humans are so self deceived by thinking they must perform the feats of Hercules, and they end up in a quandary by taking upon themselves Sisyphean tasks to prove themselves worthy of God and His salvation.

When Captain Naaman of Syria came (with his army) to be healed of His leprosy, Elisha told him to dip himself seven times into the Jordan River. Captain Naaman knew right then and there that he had made a mistake in coming to Israel. Surely Elisha would have waved a magic wand over him and spoken magical words, and the heavens would thunder. Dipping oneself seven times in a river was far too easy and uneventful task in return for a great reward such as being healed of a horrible ugly disease like leprosy. Captain Naaman understood the world he lived in and he knew you have to give a lot to get a lot. He had brought great riches with him to give as payment or bribe for his healing. Captain Naaman would have even sailed the seas and fought great monsters to bring back to Elisha the mythical Golden Fleece, had Elisha only asked. A bitter and extremely disappointed Naaman, ignoring Elisha’s unrealistic stupid request, ordered his troops to prepare to return to Syria. But his sons came to Captain Naaman and said to him ‘Umm, we came this far, uh, why not try it, and see what happens.’ Naaman dipped himself in Jordan seven times, his leprosy was washed away, and his skin became as pure as baby’s skin.

Jesus is Elisha and we are Naaman. Why is it so hard to believe Scripture and simply accept Jesus’s gift of eternal life? God will have it no other way. Had Naaman left because it was just too unbelievably easy, He would have not been healed.

2 Ki 5:13-14
Then his servants came near and spoke to him and said, " My father, had the prophet told you to do some great thing, would you not have done it? How much more then, when he says to you, ‘Wash, and be clean’?" So he went down and dipped himself seven times in the Jordan, according to the word of the man of God; and his flesh was restored like the flesh of a little child and he was clean. NASU

**We are to forgive those who sin against us. Again, ‘Mercy trimphs over Judgement’ and ‘By What Measure we Measure, so shall it be Measured unto Us.’

When Jesus says ‘keep my commandments’, He is not at all talking about the worthless Mosaic Laws.’ For where there is a change in Priesthood, there is a change in Law. In the new Law of Jesus’s priesthood, God keeps us. It sure is great and joyous to be a Christian.

Before the the foundations of the cosmos were laid, we were saved through Jesus Christ. God knows what He is doing, and the end from the very beginning. Jesus has not lost any of His sheep.

Jn 10:24-30
**The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them, " I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. 26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 " My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 " I and the Father are one.” **
NASU

I am a sheep that no one is able to snatch me out of the Father’s hand.**

 

[AmateurPianist]

Hi,

***I must admit to never thinking of “history as being subjective?” Either it did or it did not happen. That seems “Objective to me.”

---

But how does one conclusively establish “it did happen” when the time period about 2000 years ago. This is a serious question. From my reading it seems like educated historians disagree on what the facts are when dealing with this time period. My understanding is that it all boils down to how reliable one considers the historical documents of the period.

And there are differences between historical facts, interpretations of historical facts, and spin of historical facts. From my reading of these forums much that is claimed as historically factual seems to be the latter two.

 

[grandfather]

Neither Calvin, nor Luther, nor Augustine or the Borja Popes are authorities in my Christianity. The authority I yield to is the indwelling Holy Spirit and the Bible.

I am in a relationship with God, and I believe God. God is the ultimate authority in my life.

Is this authority you claim as yours found somewhere in the Bible? Is this doctrine of yours scriptural?

Do you think the Holy Spirit would lead you with the Bible, to believe one thing, and lead another sincere person to believe something that contradicted that thing?

If the Holy Spirit led every individual do you think everyone would unanimously agree on things of faith, or would there be constant disputes and divisions that we see?

I believe you are 100% sincere, that any question that came up you would sincerely search the scriptures and pray to God for inspiration to be led into truth. I also believe there are other sincere Christians who do the same thing and would disagree with you, come to different conclusions. Could God be giving all these sincere people different opposing answers?

Take the question of infant baptism for example only. Some Protestants say infants should not be baptized. Others say they should. Both claim the Bible is their authority and they pray for the Holy Spirit to lead them. I believe this is true of Baptists, Jehovahs Witnesses, Mormons, Presbyterians, Evangelicals, Lutherans, et al ad infintum.

If the Bible and the inspiration of the Holy Spirit is the method God gives us to find truth how is it possible to end up with all this division and confusion? Does the Holy Spirit divide or unify?

Again, this notion that the individual should determine doctrine for himself by this method is not found in the Bible anywhere. How can you say then that the Bible is your authority if you believe things that are not in it?

I have heard people who use your method say regarding the belief about losing salvation, “I used to believe salvation could not be lost, because of XYZ in scripture, but now I think salvation can be lost, because of ABC scripture”. Would the Holy Spirit first have led this person to one belief and then led him to believe the opposite? I don’t think so. Yet the person claims that he determines truth for himself by considering the Bible and asking for guidance.

It does not work. It is very obvious.

 

[Telestia]

Is this authority you claim as yours found somewhere in the Bible? Is this doctrine of yours scriptural?

Do you think the Holy Spirit would lead you with the Bible, to believe one thing, and lead another sincere person to believe something that contradicted that thing?

If the Holy Spirit led every individual do you think everyone would unanimously agree on things of faith, or would there be constant disputes and divisions that we see?

I believe you are 100% sincere, that any question that came up you would sincerely search the scriptures and pray to God for inspiration to be led into truth. I also believe there are other sincere Christians who do the same thing and would disagree with you, come to different conclusions. Could God be giving all these sincere people different opposing answers?

Take the question of infant baptism for example only. Some Protestants say infants should not be baptized. Others say they should. Both claim the Bible is their authority and they pray for the Holy Spirit to lead them. I believe this is true of Baptists, Jehovahs Witnesses, Mormons, Presbyterians, Evangelicals, Lutherans, et al ad infintum.

If the Bible and the inspiration of the Holy Spirit is the method God gives us to find truth how is it possible to end up with all this division and confusion? Does the Holy Spirit divide or unify?

Again, this notion that the individual should determine doctrine for himself by this method is not found in the Bible anywhere. How can you say then that the Bible is your authority if you believe things that are not in it?

I have heard people who use your method say regarding the belief about losing salvation, “I used to believe salvation could not be lost, because of XYZ in scripture, but now I think salvation can be lost, because of ABC scripture”. Would the Holy Spirit first have led this person to one belief and then led him to believe the opposite? I don’t think so. Yet the person claims that he determines truth for himself by considering the Bible and asking for guidance.

It does not work. It is very obvious.

I can not help you with your thoughts. I know who I am in Christ. You do realize that the Catholic Magisterial acknowledges that there are non-Catholics who are Christians and will be saved and be in heaven, etc.

Why you feel the way you do is between you and God.

I wish you the very best, and pray God will help you with this.

In my childhood I read the following poem by Edwin Markham. I never forgot it. I believe in it.

“He drew a circle that shut me out-
Heretic , rebel, a thing to flout.
But love and I had the wit to win:
We drew a circle and took him In !"

May God Bless you with His true riches.

with Love

Telestia

 

[grandfather]

]I can not help you with your thoughts. I know who I am in Christ. You do realize that the Catholic Magisterial acknowledges that there are non-Catholics who are Christians and will be saved and be in heaven, etc.

Of course and I sincerely hope you are among them, and that I am also.

Why you feel the way you do is between you and God.

I don’t understand that. Sorry!

I wish you the very best, and pray God will help you with this.

Thank you.

In my childhood I read the following poem by Edwin Markham. I never forgot it. I believe in it.

“He drew a circle that shut me out-
Heretic , rebel, a thing to flout.
But love and I had the wit to win:
We drew a circle and took him In !"

Very beautiful. You are in my circle.

May God Bless you with His true riches.

with Love

Telestia

Thank you. God bless you.

 

[Telestia]

Of course and I sincerely hope you are among them, and that I am also.

I don’t understand that. Sorry!

Thank you.

Very beautiful. You are in my circle.

Thank you. God bless you.

And I am glad to be in your circle. And appreciate your blessing, friend.

 

[JRKH]

Neither Calvin, nor Luther, nor Augustine or the Borja Popes are authorities in my Christianity. The authority I yield to is the indwelling Holy Spirit and the Bible.

I am in a relationship with God, and I believe God. God is the ultimate authority in my life.

This is a wonderful testimony - but please, in love, a couple of questions.

How do you know that this spirit in you is Holy and not some other spirit?

It is good that you do not submit to any individual, and you rely on the Bible, but let me ask this…
What do you do with the Bible passages that point to an authoritative Church?

I do not mean to belittle your testimony, but saying that you rely on the Holy Spirit and the Bible - leaves you without a community (Ekklesia - Church) to aide in testing the spirit(s). This is a very dangerous way to seek Truth.

Remember that the Church is the pillar and Bulwark of Truth (1 Tim. 3:15) and that We are instructed to take disputes to the Church - to “Tell it to the Church” and to “listen to The Church” because the Church has the authority to “bind and loose”…“Whatever”. (Mt 18:15-18).

Peace
James

 

[Telestia]

This is a wonderful testimony - but please, in love, a couple of questions.

How do you know that this spirit in you is Holy and not some other spirit?

Because:

**4. He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.
**
God knew us, chose us, before the foundation of the world [cosmos], and that we would be Holy and Blameless before Him

5. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

We were predestined to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to His kind will.

**6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
**
And this God freely bestowed upon us in Jesus.

7. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace

In Jesus we have redemption through His Blood, the forgiveness of our sins, by His rich graces we are redeemed

8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight

It’s a gift to us, well planned out before time.

9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him

He revealed this truth of his kind intention through Jesus Christ

**10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.
**
According to God’s timing and plan etc.

11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

We Have Obtained an inheritance, as predestined according to God’s will, work, and purpose

12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.

The early Christians receiving the fulfillment of the above plans of God first.

**13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation — having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise
**
We listened to the message of truth (gospel), and we believed Jesus’s message, we were sealed in Jesus with the Holy Spirit Jesus promised us (the indwelling Paraclete, God in me).

14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

The Holy Spirit in us is Jesus’s pledge (Security down payment) of our inheritance until (tje time of) the full ransom of Jesus’s acquisition of us unto the praise of His glory.

to elaborate the last two versus:

"[from verse 13 - our being sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise = which in verse 14] is the pledge (from the greek meaning - part of the purchase property given in advance as security for the rest) of our inheritance until the redemption of the acquisition.

Jesus paid the price for us on the cross, He sealed us as His possession by giving us the indwelling Holy Spirit, and He will give us our great inheritance when He redeems His acquisition of us at His 2nd coming.

It is finished.

Please note that I want to highlight the greek word ‘arrhabon’ in verse 13 which is translated in the NASU as ‘pledge’.

Strongs definition is:

arrhabon (ar-hrab-ohn’); of Hebrew origin [OT:6162]; a pledge, i.e. part of the purchase-money or property given in advance as security for the rest:

(Biblesoft’s New Exhaustive Strong’s Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

It is good that you do not submit to any individual, and you rely on the Bible, but let me ask this…

What do you do with the Bible passages that point to an authoritative Church?

Jesus is both, The Chief Cornerstone and The Head of the Christian Church. Regardless of what Christian denomination we belong to, all Christians belong to the one Church of Jesus Christ.

I do not mean to belittle your testimony, but saying that you rely on the Holy Spirit and the Bible - leaves you without a community (Ekklesia - Church) to aide in testing the spirit(s). This is a very dangerous way to seek Truth.

**
Does this mean we’re not friends anymore? You know, James, if I thought you weren’t my friend, I just don’t think I could bear it.**

Remember that the Church is the pillar and Bulwark of Truth (1 Tim. 3:15) and that We are instructed to take disputes to the Church - to “Tell it to the Church” and to “listen to The Church” because the Church has the authority to “bind and loose”…“Whatever”. (Mt 18:15-18).

I love God with all my heart and strength, and my neighbor as my self, I forgive others as I wish to be forgiven, the quality of mercy is not strained,. And I do have the indwelling Holy Spirit, for I know this for a fact based upon scripture:

"1 Co 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is accursed”; and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. NASU

And I say - JESUS IS LORD!!!

And may the blessings and the peace of God be upon you, James.

 

[BrianGular]

Please consider what the Bible says about the Church, the authority Jesus gives to His apostles to teach the nations. The Bible, scripture, does not claim itself as the sole supreme authority in matters of truth. It says Jesus gives this authority to men.
…
The reason for all the denominations is Luther’s doctrine that claims the Bible is the sole authority in matters of faith.
…
It is impossible that God would lead people to confusion and disunity. It is possible that some people believe what is convenient or expedient, but also possible they can be sincere and under the power of their own intellects come to the wrong conclusions, or be misled.
…
What if the person who said this was Jesus? What would you have done if you lived in the year 50 and met the Apostle Paul, or Peter, or John? Would you ask them to prove to you in the New Testament that would not be canonized for four centuries, that their teaching was of God?
…
That is really up to you. As a side note, the word heretic comes from the Greek root heren, a word that means pick and choose.
…
You are being intellectually honest with yourself. If the Holy Spirit guided or led individuals into truth we would not have any denominations. The Bible says Jesus promised to lead His Church He founded the apostles He ordained to go to all nations.

Ultimately the question for every Protestant comes down to authority. Am I the authority, me and my Bible? Am I alone with my Bible to fend for myself? Does the Bible authorize me, or Luther to teach what is contrary to what the Church of all ages believed?

Is truth revealed to us individually or through public revelation to all? Am I responsible to determine the truth of every doctrine by the power of my intellect with help from scripture? Am I supposed to follow any religious leader, preacher who has set himself up as an authority?

If the Bible says God placed people in authority over His Church and you reject them what does the Bible say will happen?

There is one other irony in this discussion about the Bible being the sole authority and the notion that the Holy Spirit leads individuals. If the Holy Spirit leads individuals in a private revelation then the Holy Spirit is the authority, not the Bible. If the Bible is the sole source we go to in matters of faith, then we can not go to God. This is nonsense of course. We seek God both within our own souls privately and also collectively as God’s people.

Hello, grandfather!

Something that many people don’t understand–even most Protestants in my experience–is that the Reformers did not reject the importance of the history and traditions of the church. They, along with wise Protestants today, understand that we stand on the shoulders of those who have gone before. As has been pointed out in this discussion, the early church had no documents other than the Old Testament. They used these scriptures to build their case for Christ as Messiah, but they were completely dependent on the word as spoken by the Apostles, led by the Holy Spirit, for new revelation. It was only after the letters began to be circulated that the New Testament began to form.

Luther, Zingli, Calvin and the rest would be horrified by the notion that individual Christians could just “pick and choose.” The American Protestant church is especially egregious in her violation of this tenant. American individualism has fed the Protestant reaction against the abuses of the pre-Reformation church to create something that fails to value history and tradition as it should. Many modern-day Reformers are working hard to correct this.

A key distinction about authority between the Protestant and Roman churches is papal authority. Protestants would reject the claim that there is an unbroken line of authority passed through succession from pope to pope. They would, instead, claim that the Apostles themselves had special authority that translated into their writing of the New Testament documents as the primary authority of the church. They were given special inspiration of God to reveal truths that were important and sufficient for the church. Rather than a rag-tag collection of documents as some on this forum would claim, the scriptures were left by men inspired of God. Therein lies the claim that the Bible has authority over the church.

As to your claim that God would not lead his people into confusion and disunity, I think history refutes such a notion. One need only look at the history of Israel in the Old Testament, the so-called “Great Schism” of the pre-Reformation church (1378-1415, when there were two, and at one time three, popes all claiming supremacy), or any of many other examples of God’s people in apparent chaos to see that God often works in and through our confusion.

Differences in Protestant denominations do not prove them right or wrong over against the Roman church. If differences were proof of not following Jesus Christ then the church disqualified itself long before the Reformers came on the scene.

Let’s not forget that the Reformers were not just troublemakers out to destroy the church. They were men of God trying to correct abuses in the church and return her to a faith that followed Christ. Consistent with my reading of almost all of church history, what we see today is the product of reaction–reaction to abuses, reaction to the reforms of those abuses, and so on. We humans frequently react and then overreact.

 

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by JRKH View Post
This is a wonderful testimony - but please, in love, a couple of questions.

This is a very long response that simply does not answer the question.
Simply Quoting Scripture is not sufficient since even evil spirits can quote Scripture and twist it to their own ends and to the destruction of souls. Scripture points this out in 2 Peter 3:16.

Let me say that I am not doubting your spirit, but at the same time, your statement that you rely on the “indwelling of the Spirit and the Bible” is a statement that isolates you from the physical, visible church community as established by Christ - The leader of the Church which you rightly acknowledge. It is something that can prevent one from “testing the spirits” through the interaction of the faithful with each other.

Christ, in His wisdom, did not entrust the Gospel to a single person but to twelve, and through these to the thousands. He did this so that His body, the Church, and all of it’s individual parts might be protected from error.

I implore you, in the name of our most glorious King and Savior, do not cut yourself off from fellowship with the visible Church.

Originally Posted by JRKH View Post
It is good that you do not submit to any individual, and you rely on the Bible, but let me ask this.

What do you do with the Bible passages that point to an authoritative Church?

Jesus is both, The Chief Cornerstone and The Head of the Christian Church. Regardless of what Christian denomination we belong to, all Christians belong to the one Church of Jesus Christ.

Fine, but this again avoids the question. What do you do with the passages that point to an authoritative Church.
You have stated that you rely on the indwelling of the Spirit and the Bible. Well the Bible points toward a “Church” with authority to “Bind and Loose”. The Bible tells us to take problems and disputes to the Church and “Listen to the Church”. The Bible demonstrates the Church acting with it’s authority to resolve a doctrinal issue between the members of two church locations and traditions in Acts 15.
Yet you - relying solely on the indwelling of the Spirit and the Bible - do net even seem to see these passages.

I was once where you are now. Any denomination was fine…But, solely by God’s grace, reading the Bible and coming to understand these passages I came to realize that I was in grave error on that point.

(Cont below)

 

[JRKH]

(cont from above)

Originally Posted by JRKH View Post
I do not mean to belittle your testimony, but saying that you rely on the Holy Spirit and the Bible - leaves you without a community (Ekklesia - Church) to aide in testing the spirit(s). This is a very dangerous way to seek Truth.

Does this mean we’re not friends anymore? You know, James, if I thought you weren’t my friend, I just don’t think I could bear it.

It is because I see you as friend that I speak as I do. I do not wish to see you isolate yourself in the “He and me and the KJV” mentality. This was not Christ’s intent.

You like to find the Greek meanings…I applaud this. Let us look at “Church” - “Ekklesia” - Strong defines Ekklesia as: a *gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating *
There are other lesser meanings but they fit less well with the idea of being chosen by God.

One can see by the above, that Christs community is called out, it deliberates, and takes council with one another. Again, we can see this in the NT writings where Paul speaks to the Corinthians in how they act “in Church”, in community gatherings. How he tells Timothy that the Church (the visible assembled community) is the bulwark of Truth. How Jesus tells us to take our disputes to the Church (visible community) and then to listen to the Church - which has authority…

I could go on, but the point is that there are numerous references in the NT, to a visible, authoritative Church. Rejecting this is rejecting a significant part of God’s Word in Scripture.
Please consider this carefully.

I love God with all my heart and strength, and my neighbor as my self, I forgive others as I wish to be forgiven, the quality of mercy is not strained,. And I do have the indwelling Holy Spirit, for I know this for a fact based upon scripture:

"1 Co 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is accursed”; and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. NASU

Praise God.
Such is indeed God’s spirit for this is the root of all the Law and Prophets.
Continue to seek the Truth in the Scriptures. But beware of wolves in sheep’s clothing who will try to separate you from the safety of the flock and the shepherd by dividing the flock.

And I say - JESUS IS LORD!!!

And may the blessings and the peace of God be upon you, James.

And on you.

Peace
James

 

[Telestia]

(cont from above)

It is because I see you as friend that I speak as I do. I do not wish to see you isolate yourself in the “He and me and the KJV” mentality. This was not Christ’s intent.

You like to find the Greek meanings…I applaud this. Let us look at “Church” - “Ekklesia” - Strong defines Ekklesia as: a *gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating *
There are other lesser meanings but they fit less well with the idea of being chosen by God.

One can see by the above, that Christs community is called out, it deliberates, and takes council with one another. Again, we can see this in the NT writings where Paul speaks to the Corinthians in how they act “in Church”, in community gatherings. How he tells Timothy that the Church (the visible assembled community) is the bulwark of Truth. How Jesus tells us to take our disputes to the Church (visible community) and then to listen to the Church - which has authority…

I could go on, but the point is that there are numerous references in the NT, to a visible, authoritative Church. Rejecting this is rejecting a significant part of God’s Word in Scripture.
Please consider this carefully.

Praise God.
Such is indeed God’s spirit for this is the root of all the Law and Prophets.
Continue to seek the Truth in the Scriptures. But beware of wolves in sheep’s clothing who will try to separate you from the safety of the flock and the shepherd by dividing the flock.

“etc, etc, etc,” Telestia]

And on you.

Peace
James

“All i suggest, a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.” Simon and Garfunkel.

 

[Telestia]

JRKH

You’ve got to be kidding.

The Apostle Paul wrote that Clergy should have no more than one wife, and competent in taking care of their household, and raising their children. And he gave a prophetic warning of those who will come and ban marriage. The Council of Nicea struck down the proposal of banning marriage for clergy. How in the world did we go from that to banning clergy from marrying, and of all people leading the ban on marriage is Augustine, whose self hating profligate lifestyle of severe sex addiction, to populist advocate of banning marriage for Clergy. Augustine then abandons his wife and 17 year old son to take up celibacy.

John Hus was burned alive by the Catholic Church, one of many… What right does any group of so-called Christian have to burn people alive, or otherwise put people to death as heretics. There were many heretics when the 12 Apostles were around, such as the Gnostics, and they never advocated burning these anti-Christs, or otherwise murder them. I see no mandate in scripture for Christians to murder anyone whose views differ from the Roman Catholic Magisterial. Do you?

Marco Polo came back from the orient and went to the Pope with a message from Genghis Khan. Non-Catholic Christian wives were highly valued in the Orient, and Genghis Khan explained to Marco Polo that he favored Christianity, but if he made it the official religion of his empire, his non-Christian subjects would rise up in rebellion. Thus Genghis Khan requested Marco Polo a hundred missionaries to convert the many tribes. The Pope sent two missionaries, one who died on the way.

God raised up Francis of Assisi because, as several Catholic sources state, because the Catholic Church had grown cold, and Francis led the way to renewing the Church of that day.

Charging people to see Holy relics, purgatory and paying to reduce one’s sentence in purgatory, where are these ideas in the New Testament, leaving one’s real estate to the Church instead of family to ‘help get into heaven sooner’. What is this?

A Pope who puts out a hit on the Medici Brothers. Another Pope who has orgies in the Vatican, the Borja popes, reinstatement of slavery trade in Africa and the Americas. The looting and mass murders of the New World. Intrigue in the Papacy. Spain and Portugal get rich from looting the New World. King Charles of Spain uses the wealth to conquer Western Europe, allied with sever Italian states, and backed by the Pope, tires to conquer Catholic France. In the 2nd war against France, The king of France allies with the Muslim Ottoman Turks in order to keep the Spanish from conquering them. And there goes the loot they took from the New World.

It was out of these that the Protestant reformation arose, to restore Christians to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Not perfect, but it was a back to the Bible and gospel movement, made possible by the printing press and the rapid growth in literacy.

JRKH, Your Church has not been as pristine or ‘Christ like’ as you wish to believe.

In my view, Christianity is the set of people who have embraced and live the life of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, all (including Catholics) of whom have the indwelling Holy Spirit, regardless of what Christian denomination they belong.

And salvation is coming to the Jews, all Israel will be saved when the time of the gentiles comes to an end. Which seemingly is very close.

 

[Denise1957]

JRKH

You’ve got to be kidding.

The Apostle Paul wrote that Clergy should have no more than one wife, and competent in taking care of their household, and raising their children. And he gave a prophetic warning of those who will come and ban marriage. The Council of Nicea struck down the proposal of banning marriage for clergy. How in the world did we go from that to banning clergy from marrying, and of all people leading the ban on marriage is Augustine, whose self hating profligate lifestyle of severe sex addiction, to populist advocate of banning marriage for Clergy. Augustine then abandons his wife and 17 year old son to take up celibacy.

John Hus was burned alive by the Catholic Church, one of many… What right does any group of so-called Christian have to burn people alive, or otherwise put people to death as heretics. There were many heretics when the 12 Apostles were around, such as the Gnostics, and they never advocated burning these anti-Christs, or otherwise murder them. I see no mandate in scripture for Christians to murder anyone whose views differ from the Roman Catholic Magisterial. Do you?

Marco Polo came back from the orient and went to the Pope with a message from Genghis Khan. Non-Catholic Christian wives were highly valued in the Orient, and Genghis Khan explained to Marco Polo that he favored Christianity, but if he made it the official religion of his empire, his non-Christian subjects would rise up in rebellion. Thus Genghis Khan requested Marco Polo a hundred missionaries to convert the many tribes. The Pope sent two missionaries, one who died on the way.

God raised up Francis of Assisi because, as several Catholic sources state, because the Catholic Church had grown cold, and Francis led the way to renewing the Church of that day.

Charging people to see Holy relics, purgatory and paying to reduce one’s sentence in purgatory, where are these ideas in the New Testament, leaving one’s real estate to the Church instead of family to ‘help get into heaven sooner’. What is this?

A Pope who puts out a hit on the Medici Brothers. Another Pope who has orgies in the Vatican, the Borja popes, reinstatement of slavery trade in Africa and the Americas. The looting and mass murders of the New World. Intrigue in the Papacy. Spain and Portugal get rich from looting the New World. King Charles of Spain uses the wealth to conquer Western Europe, allied with sever Italian states, and backed by the Pope, tires to conquer Catholic France. In the 2nd war against France, The king of France allies with the Muslim Ottoman Turks in order to keep the Spanish from conquering them. And there goes the loot they took from the New World.

It was out of these that the Protestant reformation arose, to restore Christians to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Not perfect, but it was a back to the Bible and gospel movement, made possible by the printing press and the rapid growth in literacy.

JRKH, Your Church has not been as pristine or ‘Christ like’ as you wish to believe.

In my view, Christianity is the set of people who have embraced and live the life of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, all (including Catholics) of whom have the indwelling Holy Spirit, regardless of what Christian denomination they belong.

And salvation is coming to the Jews, all Israel will be saved when the time of the gentiles comes to an end. Which seemingly is very close.

quote from above post:

“JRKH, Your Church has not been as pristine or ‘Christ like’ as you wish to believe.”

Telestia, the Catholic Church has sinners who make mistakes - sometimes big ones. Judas is an example of someone who did something evil, but the other Apostles did not leave the church in response.

But there are two sides to a story. The situations which you describe in your post are one-sided. I think that in addition to pointing out the presumed evils that Catholics have committed, you also just don’t believe many things that the Church teaches.

 

[jmoneyideas]

Wondering on your thoughts about this statement that was sent to me via email by a Prodestant pastor in response to a email i had vack and forth with him? Thanks you all for the spirited debate.

I agree with you that the Protestant movement was not about Luther presenting antinominalism (cheap grace). Luther stated, “we are saved by faith alone not by a faith that is alone.” The reformers were clear to define the term, “saving faith” meaning that it was in the person and work of Jesus and not imputed through sacraments of the church or its officials.

I have witnessed that even until this day both Protestant and Catholics argue about things that they don’t understand fully. Luther sought not to destroy the Catholic Church but to cause it to return to the Word of God and away from the Roman influence that infiltrated it.

We should all seek to understand that the infallible Word of God is preserved within the text of the original languages (Hebrew and Koine Greek) and only through the careful study of it will we become enriched with its everlasting truth!

“All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.”

2 Timothy 3:16-17

 

[jmoneyideas]

quote from above post:

“JRKH, Your Church has not been as pristine or ‘Christ like’ as you wish to believe.”

Telestia, the Catholic Church has sinners who make mistakes - sometimes big ones. Judas is an example of someone who did something evil, but the other Apostles did not leave the church in response.

But there are two sides to a story. The situations which you describe in your post are one-sided. I think that in addition to pointing out the presumed evils that Catholics have committed, you also just don’t believe many things that the Church teaches.

I must agree that it is sad that @Telestia has to bring the same angry filled speech toward the Chruch that has caused me to read up on the Reformation and even take a step away form my current so called Non Denominational church and attend mass and contact a RCIA director to make the move into the Church. This is what I told my pastor after he had sent me a atricle about the Reformation movement last night

HERE GOES>>>>>

Very interesting reading, I don’t agree with everything but interesting. What makes me wonder is the how a Fraction in time can divide so many people. I agree that there were Some shady characters in this time period as civilization grew. Even Luther did not want to have a seperation of the core of the church as it was. The reformation was more towards changing the church he became a priest in, not ripping the core of its being apart. It went from Protestantism to so many other splintered fractions that any given day you can he a different interpretation of the word and who knows if you are being taught what is right and wrong. The word is written so it should be a truth but scriptures even tons of different translations with different phrasings and wordings. I ran into this last weekend with a salesman, who read his King James version from Gen 1 and 2 and he is completely lost about the 2 creation event that he read, I handed him the NIV and he was shocked that it came across so different to him. I think we should all look for truth but strive to be as holy as we can too, having a mind and spirit of Christ, Division is the work of the Enemy, It happens at home, at work, in Government and even in the Church<<<<<

I am seaking a spiritual truth, and I will say, even as I read many different views in the Forums and on this Thread that the Sacraments(a path to holiness and salvation), The Unity(one Church of Christ) and the Authority of The Chruch in its self are the path of Truth and Christ laid this foundation before us and we must carry it in our lives everyday.

There are a few things that are really leading me to this Change in my life that go beyond this point I made above. The things about the Prodestantism that really just pushed is me away is The treatment of Mary in there eyes and The Saints of the Church. All things even to the Eucharist are a big push away for me. When I hear that Commnion is purely a symbolic thing I get actually upset. I feel that it is so much more and I personally cant wait to finally someday soon take part in it.

I really hope that no one take this the wrong way and bashes my post, One thing about me is a write what I feel…I try to be as trasparent as I can be, I am a newbie so my words and phrasing may not be as accurate as my Theoligically gifted brothers and sister on the Thread but My heart doesn’t lie. This is my belief, agree or disagree but one day maybe you may be where I am. I have never read so much in my life the past few weeks, it had been sprititually uplifting and I thank all the posters for there insight. God bless you all.

 

[Denise1957]

I must agree that it is sad that @Telestia has to bring the same angry filled speech toward the Chruch that has caused me to read up on the Reformation and even take a step away form my current so called Non Denominational church and attend mass and contact a RCIA director to make the move into the Church. This is what I told my pastor after he had sent me a atricle about the Reformation movement last night

HERE GOES>>>>>

Very interesting reading, I don’t agree with everything but interesting. What makes me wonder is the how a Fraction in time can divide so many people. I agree that there were Some shady characters in this time period as civilization grew. Even Luther did not want to have a seperation of the core of the church as it was. The reformation was more towards changing the church he became a priest in, not ripping the core of its being apart. It went from Protestantism to so many other splintered fractions that any given day you can he a different interpretation of the word and who knows if you are being taught what is right and wrong. The word is written so it should be a truth but scriptures even tons of different translations with different phrasings and wordings. I ran into this last weekend with a salesman, who read his King James version from Gen 1 and 2 and he is completely lost about the 2 creation event that he read, I handed him the NIV and he was shocked that it came across so different to him. I think we should all look for truth but strive to be as holy as we can too, having a mind and spirit of Christ, Division is the work of the Enemy, It happens at home, at work, in Government and even in the Church<<<<<

I am seaking a spiritual truth, and I will say, even as I read many different views in the Forums and on this Thread that the Sacraments(a path to holiness and salvation), The Unity(one Church of Christ) and the Authority of The Chruch in its self are the path of Truth and Christ laid this foundation before us and we must carry it in our lives everyday.

There are a few things that are really leading me to this Change in my life that go beyond this point I made above. The things about the Prodestantism that really just pushed is me away is The treatment of Mary in there eyes and The Saints of the Church. All things even to the Eucharist are a big push away for me. When I hear that Commnion is purely a symbolic thing I get actually upset. I feel that it is so much more and I personally cant wait to finally someday soon take part in it.

I really hope that no one take this the wrong way and bashes my post, One thing about me is a write what I feel…I try to be as trasparent as I can be, I am a newbie so my words and phrasing may not be as accurate as my Theoligically gifted brothers and sister on the Thread but My heart doesn’t lie. This is my belief, agree or disagree but one day maybe you may be where I am. I have never read so much in my life the past few weeks, it had been sprititually uplifting and I thank all the posters for there insight. God bless you all.

Hi jmoneyideas,

I’m no expert on Luther; I only know about a few things relating to him and the Protestant Reformation. My understanding (and you may have been told this already) is that Martin Luther suffered from a mental disturbance called scrupulousity, where a person is too focused on or obsessed with sin (usually their own, but it can spill over to worrying about other’s sinfulness, too). A good confessor can often detect this problem in the confessional by what the penitent tells him, and then try to deal with it. Not that there weren’t problems in the Church then…there were.

On the flip side, and to his credit, my understanding is that Martin Luther always maintained his devotion to the Blessed Mother, but that this was not then carried down in the Lutheran churches, unfortunately.

It is unfortuante that there is division among Christians - Catholic and Protestant. I have sympathy for those Protestants who believe all of the anti-Catholic rhetoric they’ve been told, and my hope is that they will try to find out the truth of the situation, as you are trying to do. It’s good that you are asking questions. It took two years for me to decide to become Catholic after attending Mass almost weekly and studying like crazy (though I had no intention, at first, in converting). I also had a bit of an aversion to our Blessed Mother, like some Protestants (certainly not all) do, but I had an unusual experience once which caused me to believe in and be devoted to her.

Thank goodness you have an understanding of the importance of the Eucharist, which is so central to our faith as Catholics.

God bless!

 

[jlhargus]

I really hope that no one take this the wrong way and bashes my post, One thing about me is a write what I feel…I try to be as trasparent as I can be, I am a newbie so my words and phrasing may not be as accurate as my Theoligically gifted brothers and sister on the Thread but My heart doesn’t lie. This is my belief, agree or disagree but one day maybe you may be where I am. I have never read so much in my life the past few weeks, it had been sprititually uplifting and I thank all the posters for there insight. God bless you all.

JL: I am sure many of us will be praying for you. God bless

 

[JRKH]

JRKH

You’ve got to be kidding.

About what precisely.
About the fact that the Bible points to an authoritative Church?
You seem to think that my pointing this out means that I am attempting to point you toward the Catholic Church - a fair assumption given that this is a Catholic board - but the assumption is quite wrong.
If one accepts the Bible as the sole, or primary standard on Christian teaching, one must recognize the fat that the Bible point to a unified, visible, authoritative community. It really is that simple.
Begin with Abraham. A family covenant. Visible, authoritative with leadership (Patriarchs). This evolves into the Nation of Israel. Visible, authoritative with leadership (Moses, Judges, Kings, etc.). Jesus founds a new community (Church) on Peter (Kepha = Rock) and the twelve apostles who go out and begin building the kingdom - visibly and authoritatively.
I’ve already explained how the term Church (ekklesia) is used only twice in the Gospels, both times by Jesus and Both times in connection with the granting of authority to bind and loose…whatever.
I’ve explained how Jesus tells us to take our disputes to the Church saying, “Tell it to the Church” and then “Listen to the Church” on pain of being shunned, cast our, excommunicated…(Mt 18:15-18).
I’ve explained how we have a clear example of this principle in action in Acts 15 where a doctrinal dispute is taken up in council of the Church leaders (Apostles and Elders) and the decision reached there was binding on the whole Church.

Now I shall demonstrate that repeatedly Jesus and the Apostles, as recorded in Holy Scripture that you accept as your guide, prayed for and exhorted the faithful to be united, to be one…
John 17:20-21
20 "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Rom 15:5-6
5 May the God of endurance and encouragement grant you to live in such harmony with one another, in accord with Christ Jesus, 6 that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Cor 1:10
I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

2 Cor 13:11
Finally, brothers, rejoice. Aim for restoration, comfort one another, agree with one another, live in peace; and the God of love and peace will be with you.

Php 1:27
Only let your manner of life be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the gospel,

1 Pet 3:8
Finally, all of you, have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love, a tender heart, and a humble mind.

These things were written to visible groups - they were read out loud to visible communities as teachings from the one true church…Exhortations to remain one in Christ and in perfect harmony.

This is what is contained in Scripture.

Now - If you can show me IN SCRIPTURE - equally compelling evidence in support of the “invisible church”, I’ll be happy to look it over.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

JRKH, Your Church has not been as pristine or ‘Christ like’ as you wish to believe.

Truth be told my friend, you do not know what I know or believe about this. You seem capable of making some pretty large assumptions considering how little we have communicated.

The Apostle Paul wrote that Clergy should have no more than one wife, and competent in taking care of their household, and raising their children. And he gave a prophetic warning of those who will come and ban marriage. The Council of Nicea struck down the proposal of banning marriage for clergy. How in the world did we go from that to banning clergy from marrying, and of all people leading the ban on marriage is Augustine, whose self hating profligate lifestyle of severe sex addiction, to populist advocate of banning marriage for Clergy. Augustine then abandons his wife and 17 year old son to take up celibacy.

The issue of priestly celibacy is one of discipline not of doctrine. The Latin Church requires celibacy in the majority of it’s priests however I believe that at least some of the Eastern Rite Catholic Churches do not. Even in the Latin Rite Church exceptions are made and there are married Latin Catholic Priests currently serving.

John Hus was burned alive by the Catholic Church, one of many… What right does any group of so-called Christian have to burn people alive, or otherwise put people to death as heretics. There were many heretics when the 12 Apostles were around, such as the Gnostics, and they never advocated burning these anti-Christs, or otherwise murder them. I see no mandate in scripture for Christians to murder anyone whose views differ from the Roman Catholic Magisterial. Do you?

I agree that no one should be killed for their beliefs and the killings of Catholics by Protestants were just as horrendous as the killing of protestants by Catholics.
However, just spouting out such things serves no purpose unless you are willing to consider the very different socio-political realities of that time as compared to today. By the time of these atrocities, the Church and the State were so intertwined that subversion of one was treason to the other - all very complicated and frankly - unfortunate.

Marco Polo came back from the orient and went to the Pope with a message from Genghis Khan. Non-Catholic Christian wives were highly valued in the Orient, and Genghis Khan explained to Marco Polo that he favored Christianity, but if he made it the official religion of his empire, his non-Christian subjects would rise up in rebellion. Thus Genghis Khan requested Marco Polo a hundred missionaries to convert the many tribes. The Pope sent two missionaries, one who died on the way.

And did the Pope have a hundred missionaries to send to the orient?? Easy to say - hard to back up…

God raised up Francis of Assisi because, as several Catholic sources state, because the Catholic Church had grown cold, and Francis led the way to renewing the Church of that day.

Which demonstrates something that has been ongoing within the Church from day-one…The renewal, and reform of the Church is something that must be ongoing.
St Francis is not the only person called up by God to renew His Church. St Teresa of Avila, St Catherine of Sienna, Francis Loyola, St Jose Maria Escriva, and many others undertook to help the Church throughout history…

Charging people to see Holy relics, purgatory and paying to reduce one’s sentence in purgatory, where are these ideas in the New Testament, leaving one’s real estate to the Church instead of family to ‘help get into heaven sooner’. What is this?

What are these? Abuses that no longer exist. If there are charges associated with viewing holy relics today (and there might be) the charges would be for the preservation and maintenance of said relics etc…

It was out of these that the Protestant reformation arose, to restore Christians to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Not perfect, but it was a back to the Bible and gospel movement, made possible by the printing press and the rapid growth in literacy.

And some of this was very good.
But - indeed it was not perfect…Protestants killed Catholics and they killed other protestants. The Reformers argued with each other but never could get a council together to hammer out just what the “reformed” Church should and should not believe. Each wound up going his own way…and their followers, if they disagreed, went their own ways and their followers likewise split over this or that issue, interpretation, practice or whatever…
The result - many different denominations teaching different and contradictory things…All Claiming the Bible and Spirit Guidance…
Sorry - it just doesn’t fly

In my view, Christianity is the set of people who have embraced and live the life of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, all (including Catholics) of whom have the indwelling Holy Spirit, regardless of what Christian denomination they belong.

Well we agree. Christianity IS what you say above. But Christianity is not what I was addressing.
Your original comment was that you rely on the indwelling of the Spirit and the Bible…
My questions, in response to this was about what you do with the passages in The Bible that point to an authoritative Church and what do you do when two Christians disagree on some matter of doctrine.
Your answers to these questions was evasive and non-responsive…

All I ask is that you recognize that “Church” IS described in the NT and it is NOT described as an invisible, loose, non-authoritative, group of conflicting denominations.

Peace
James