Calvin or Luther or someone else?

[Telestia]

I must agree that it is sad that @Telestia has to bring the same angry filled speech toward the Chruch that has caused me to read up on the Reformation and even take a step away form my current so called Non Denominational church and attend mass and contact a RCIA director to make the move into the Church. This is what I told my pastor after he had sent me a atricle about the Reformation movement last night

You do me wrong to treat me so discourteously, jmoneyideas.

There was no anger in my response, I was responding to posts by JRKH in which he totally ignores much of what I write and just keeps on with his salesmanship for the Catholic Church. There is no rapport between us.

I never condemned the Catholic Church per se, and even in my last post I listed Catholics as among those who will be saved if they truly have been reconciled with God through the cleansing blood of Jesus, thereby receiving the indwelling Holy Spirit. I certainly do not wish 1 billion people to perish.

My last response to JRKH was factual and true, and all he could do in his responses is declare me wrong, that I must join his church. There is no rapport between us. He ignores what I write. What happens when you and JRKH see me in heaven, how will you handle that. I’ll be very glad should you two were there too, I would rejoice.

So how sad are you about what I wrote? Specifically what made you so sad? That i told a few truths about the Catholic Church that are not flattering. Is your defense to protecting the Catholic Church is to launch a personal attack on me, and on your very first post to me. Is this what I would have to face and fear if I became a Catholic? Forced conformity to ideas I do not believe are scriptural, but are supported and mandated by the Catholic Church.

I accepted Jesus blood atonement for the forgiveness of all my sins, I received the Holy Spirit, is not God able to accomplish in me His good will that I may be transformed to do the good that He created me to do.

Jesus Christ has set me free from the Law of sin and death. And I know He is for me, and I am for Him. We have a love bond. It’s the best thing that ever happened to me. And I will not let that go. I have seen Him, He talked to me.

I pray that you have what I have.

Sincerely,

Telestia

 

[JRKH]

You do me wrong to treat me so discourteously, jmoneyideas.

There was no anger in my response, I was responding to posts by JRKH in which he totally ignores what I write and just keeps on with his salesmanship for the Catholic Church. There is no rapport between us.

I agree that there appears to be no rapport between us…

First let me say that I too sensed anger in your response to me. If anger was not intended then perhaps both jmoneyideas and myself owe you an apology…

That said, I will ask you to show me just where in any of my posts my “salesmanship” for the Catholic Church…

I never condemned the Catholic Church per se, and even in my last post I listed Catholics as among those who will be saved if they truly have been reconciled with God through the cleansing blood of Jesus, thereby receiving the indwelling Holy Spirit. I certainly do not wish 1 billion people to perish.

My last response to JRKH was factual and true,

I hope that you will recognize that we hear these sorts of “factual and true” comments a lot. Of course we DON’T hear about things like the “Tibor (sp) Tree” in England where the Protestants hung Catholics - just for being Catholic…Obviously there is enough blame to go around in these things which is why I would prefer to stick to teachings instead of practices…After all I never burned anyone at the stake…Have you??

and all he could do in his responses is declare me wrong, that I must join his church.There is no rapport between us.

I ask again - Where did I ever say that you must join “my” church (actually I don’t have a Church - the Church is God’s).
I am quite serious about this…Please review my posts to you and show me where I have said that I have declared you wrong and that you must join the Catholic Church…

I’m sorry that you feel that I have ignored what you said…But in truth I feel you have ignored what I said…So - there is no rapport between us…

Peace
James

 

[Telestia]

About what precisely.
About the fact that the Bible points to an authoritative Church?
You seem to think that my pointing this out means that I am attempting to point you toward the Catholic Church - a fair assumption given that this is a Catholic board - but the assumption is quite wrong.
If one accepts the Bible as the sole, or primary standard on Christian teaching, one must recognize the fat that the Bible point to a unified, visible, authoritative community. It really is that simple.

And this I have agreed with it. But it is not the RCC. The body of Christ is one, consisting of all true Christians, regardless of what denomination they belong to. Why can not you accept that there are true Christians who are not Catholic. The Catholic magisterial has recognized there are Christians who are not Catholics. As per the scriptures you quoted, all Christians are one. It has nothing to do with what Church one attends, but only on our acceptance of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And we Christians have fellowship with each other through Jesus Christ.

 

[Telestia]

I agree that there appears to be no rapport between us…

First let me say that I too sensed anger in your response to me. If anger was not intended then perhaps both jmoneyideas and myself owe you an apology…

No anger, just things that you probably wished never happened within the Catholic Church. Christians have no right to kill heretics, except in cases of self-defense. And the other things I mentioned actually led to the rise of Protestants.

It is after midnight here, I am too tired to proceed any further,

Good Night,

 

[JRKH]

And this I have agreed with it. But it is not the RCC. The body of Christ is one, consisting of all true Christians, regardless of what denomination they belong to.

And nowhere in any of my discussions with you have I declared that the Church in the NT is the RCC. Naturally I believe that it is, but you do not and I respect that.
But here again you seek to change the subject away from the question I was asking - AND from what Scripture is saying.
I am talking about “Church”, the Ekklesial community. The banding together of Christians into communities and what Scripture says those communities should look like etc…
You can ignore and try to deflect this, but Scripture is quite clear on the subject.

Why can not you accept that there are true Christians who are not Christian.

Is this a typo???

The Catholic magisterial has recognized there are Christians who are not Catholics. As per the scriptures you quoted, all Christians are one. It has nothing to do with what Church one attends, but only on our acceptance of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And we Christians have fellowship with each other through Jesus Christ.

Indeed, all who are baptized via a trinitarian baptism are accepted by the Catholic Church as brothers and sisters in Christ. However, the Church believes that those who are baptized in other Christian communities are not in full communion with the Church. For this reason, part of our tasks as Catholics is to encourage our brothers and sisters to a more full understanding of the Church and of Scripture and possibly, if so led by the Spirit, they might come home to the Church.
So - While I love you as a fellow Christian, does that mean I am not permitted to point out what I believe to be an error in your thinking?

Heaven forbid such a thing…

You claim that denomination does not matter…Yet can the Holy spirit teach different and contradictory truths to different people??
Yet - within protestantism itself, and all based on the Bible, one group teaches that Christ is truly present in the Bread and wine and others say no he is not…These are contradictory.
One group teaches that Water Baptism is necessary and another group says no…Contradictory…
One groups teaches Once saved Always saved and another group teaches that salvation can be lost…contradictory…

If the Holy Spirit is leading ALL of these bible believing people and groups…Why the contradictory teachings…
If one or the other group is wrong…on something doctrinally important, what solution does the bible prescribe to resolve the matters…

You believe in the Bible…Tell me - what is the solution to doctrinal disagreements between “spirit led, bible believing” Christians???

Peace
James

 

[Denise1957]

No anger, just things that you probably wished never happened within the Catholic Church. Christians have no right to kill heretics, except in cases of self-defense. And the other things I mentioned actually led to the rise of Protestants.

It is after midnight here, I am too tired to proceed any further,

Good Night,

I am sorry that John Huss, as you mentioned previously, was burned alive. I hope that those who were responsible for this repented of it.

You say that Christians have no right to kill heretics. But what about those Catholics in England just after the Protestant Reformation who were killed by the secular goverment (at the behest of Protestants) for refusing to denounce their faith in the Catholic Church?

You may have heard of the story of Margaret Clitherow (now St. Margaret Clitherow). In the early years after the Reformation in England, she was arrested for the crime of harboring Catholic priests in her home. She was indeed guilty of this. They were in her home to say the outlawed Catholic Mass. She was married to a non-Catholic, and they had four young children.

Margaret was put on trial for this crime, and she was told that she must renounce her Catholic faith, but she refused. She was put to death in a terrible manner: she was told to lay down on a floor, and then a heavy door was placed on top of her. Large boulders were then placed one by one on top of the door, which slowly crushed Margaret to death. She was believed to have been five months pregnant at the time.
Catholic nuns were also put to death in England in this manner.

Margaret did not go around inciting rebellion. I hope that those who were responsible for her death would have repented of it. Certainly I forgive those who were responsible for her death. Remember what Our Lord said from the Cross? He said…forgive them, for they know not what they do.

 

[Telestia]

I am sorry that John Huss, as you mentioned previously, was burned alive. I hope that those who were responsible for this repented of it.

You say that Christians have no right to kill heretics. But what about those Catholics in England just after the Protestant Reformation who were killed by the secular goverment (at the behest of Protestants) for refusing to denounce their faith in the Catholic Church?

You may have heard of the story of Margaret Clitherow (now St. Margaret Clitherow). In the early years after the Reformation in England, she was arrested for the crime of harboring Catholic priests in her home. She was indeed guilty of this. They were in her home to say the outlawed Catholic Mass. She was married to a non-Catholic, and they had four young children.

Greetings Denise,

It is wrong regardless who does the murdering. Christians have no mandate to murder anyone simply because their religious views differ from their own views. I believe we agree on this, Denise.

We do have the right to self defense, we can kill those who seek to kill, destroy, or enslave us, our families, our country, or other defenseless innocent peoples.

But we never have the right to kill people because they are converting people away from our idea of what Christianity ought to be into any other belief, even if it is atheism.

But if Islam succeeds to take over my country, and they wish to cut my head off because I stand firm as a Christian and do not bow to their Allah, they are most welcome to it. I will live on. For it is on Jesus, the solid Rock, that I stand.

BTW, IMO, it is not the muslims that endanger us, but the true rulers in our world who have already decimated and cast aside Christianity in Europe and North America. Secular humanism is the dominating religion in Western Europe and North America today. The US is a post-Christian Nation today. The falling away (the apostasy) from the truth of Jesus Christ and the Gospel is reaching the advanced stages. And here, we have the Catholics trying to convert the non-Catholic Christians to Catholicism. Such irony.

There is a large harvest out there of non-believers in need of the gospel of Jesus Christ, who need to hear the gospel, the voice of Jesus, so that may hear His voice and be drawn to Christ their Saviour, the GOOD SHEPHERD…

 

[Denise1957]

Greetings Denise,

It is wrong regardless who does the murdering. Christians have no mandate to murder anyone simply because their religious views differ from their own views. I believe we agree on this, Denise.

We do have the right to self defense, we can kill those who seek to kill, destroy, or enslave us, our families, our country, or other defenseless innocent peoples.

But we never have the right to kill people because they are converting people away from our idea of what Christianity ought to be into any other belief, even if it is atheism.

But if Islam succeeds to take over my country, and they wish to cut my head off because I stand firm as a Christian and do not bow to their Allah, they are most welcome to it. I will live on. For it is on Jesus, the solid Rock, that I stand.

BTW, IMO, it is not the muslims that endanger us, but the true rulers in our world who have already decimated and cast aside Christianity in Europe and North America. Secular humanism is the dominating religion in Western Europe and North America today. The US is a post-Christian Nation today. The falling away (the apostasy) from the truth of Jesus Christ and the Gospel is reaching the advanced stages. And here, we have the Catholics trying to convert the non-Catholic Christians to Catholicism. Such irony.

There is a large harvest out there of non-believers in need of the gospel of Jesus Christ, who need to hear the gospel, the voice of Jesus, so that may hear His voice and be drawn to Christ their Saviour, the GOOD SHEPHERD…

I appreciate your post here, but I don’t find it ironic that Catholics here stand up for their faith in the Catholic Church as being the true faith. It’s a Catholic forum, so it’s pretty much a given that this will happen. You have made clear your opposition to the Catholic Church. You are allowed to state your case, as long as you don’t become anti-Catholic in your views here. I can see that you love Our Lord Jesus Christ, and we Catholics love Him, too, as well as the Church He founded.

 

[jlhargus]

John Hus was burned alive by the Catholic Church, one of many… What right does any group of so-called Christian have to burn people alive, or otherwise put people to death as heretics.

JL: www25.uua.org/uuhs/duub/articles/michaelservetus.html

Move down to paragraph 13-15 to read about Michael Servetus’s BURNING by Protestant Geneva. Or you can read it all.

 

[Izdaari]

Within the Catholic Church, I like Pope John XXIII, who called Vatican II. Outside of it, I have enjoyed reading Luther and Calvin, and learned from both, though I don’t wholly agree with either.

 

[jlhargus]

Originally Posted by JRKH About what precisely. About the fact that the Bible points to an authoritative Church?

You seem to think that my pointing this out means that I am attempting to point you toward the Catholic Church - a fair assumption given that this is a Catholic board - but the assumption is quite wrong.

If one accepts the Bible as the sole, or primary standard on Christian teaching, one must recognize the fat that the Bible point to a unified, visible, authoritative community. It really is that simple.

And this I have agreed with it. But it is not the RCC.

JL: If not the Catholic Church then what church is it? There should be historical evidence. Name some of its leaders from the 2nd century on.

The body of Christ is one, consisting of all true Christians, regardless of what denomination they belong to. Why can not you accept that there are true Christians who are not Catholic. The Catholic magisterial has recognized there are Christians who are not Catholics. As per the scriptures you quoted, all Christians are one. It has nothing to do with what Church one attends, but only on our acceptance of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And we Christians have fellowship with each other through Jesus Christ.

JL: If Christians are one why are there thousands of contradicting gospels proclaimed? Christ and His Church preach one gospel not thousands. So Christ has a harem of thousands of contentious brides. Each having its own TRUTH. So the gospel truth doesn’t really matter to Christ. Can you give scriptural evidence for this conglomeration as ONE body?

Yes all those who have been validly baptized are Christians who are SPIRITUALLY united to that ONE VISIBLE Apostolic Catholic Church Fellowship. Yet they are not in VISIBLE, nor doctrinal, union with the fellowship Christ SENT. We call them separated brethren. In fact Protestants are not in visible nor doctrinal union with one another. If doctrine doesn’t matter then why don’t all denominations throw their name in a hat. Draw out one name and visibly unite under that name. A body that acts against itself is not a healthy body. A healthy body acts as ONE.

[Mk 9:38 And JOHN answered him, SAYING, MASTER, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and HE FOLLOWETH NOT US: and WE FORBAD HIM, because HE FOLLOWETH NOT US. 39 But JESUS SAID, FORBID HIM NOT: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. 40 For he that is not against US is on OUR PART.]

Christ established, and SENT one fellowship to TEACH the whole world till the end, promising to be WITH THEM ALWAYS, Mt28:16-20. The Holy Spirit works thru those separated denominations not in visible union with the Apostles Fellowship. Uniting them to the ONE fellowship in a spiritual way. All Christ’s children are spiritually, although not visibly nor holding the apostles doctrine fully, united to the Church or body of Christ. [1Tm3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in THE HOUSE OF GOD, which is THE CHURCH of the living God, THE PILLAR AND GROUND OF TRUTH.] There can’t be thousands of households of God teaching contradicting doctrine. There is only ONE HOUSEHOLD OF GOD, that is the pillar and ground of truth. How can a conglomeration believing and teaching contradicting doctrine be a pillar and ground of TRUTH?

The following four links are scriptural evidence for ONE BODY of Christ posted previousy by me.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7447593&postcount=987

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7447600&postcount=988

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7447604&postcount=989

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7447619&postcount=990

 

[ufamtobie]

jmoneyideas;8538708 who do you feel has caused the biggest so called reformation of the The Church of Christ? Calvin, Luther or someone else.

Jmonieyideas,

Do you really want to know? Ok I know this may sound harsh but the truth is, it was actually satan who started the protestant reformation, Luther and Calvin, etc… were pawns. The proof is in the pudding look at the mess theses men started, now a days one can become a protestant minister “online” get his or her certification by mail, how sad is that.

on eHOW.com how to become a Protestant, it list 5 steps, the 2nd step states: Affiliate with a church that is part of the denomination that you find most familiar and in accordance with your beliefs about Christianity. Most Protestant denominations use pastors but look into various denominations to make sure ones that you’re interested in still do.

eHOW.com, Really, Really ? “And in accordance to your belief about Christianity”. Now we know why there is so many protestant churches out there with different beliefs/faiths. this is certainly not of Jesus Christ, but you know “who” the one who started this mess in the 15th century.

Jmoneyideas, God Bless you on you Journey Home

Ufam Tobie

 

[BrianGular]

ufamtobie:
Jmonieyideas,

Do you really want to know? Ok I know this may sound harsh but the truth is, it was actually satan who started the protestant reformation, Luther and Calvin, etc… were pawns. The proof is in the pudding look at the mess theses men started, now a days one can become a protestant minister “online” get his or her certification by mail, how sad is that.

on eHOW.com how to become a Protestant, it list 5 steps, the 2nd step states: Affiliate with a church that is part of the denomination that you find most familiar and in accordance with your beliefs about Christianity. Most Protestant denominations use pastors but look into various denominations to make sure ones that you’re interested in still do.

eHOW.com, Really, Really ? “And in accordance to your belief about Christianity”. Now we know why there is so many protestant churches out there with different beliefs/faiths. this is certainly not of Jesus Christ, but you know “who” the one who started this mess in the 15th century.

Jmoneyideas, God Bless you on you Journey Home

Ufam Tobie

Seriously? You are going to use eHow as the standard for orthodox Protestant belief? You do realize that eHow articles can and are written by anyone regardless of their qualifications. To point to an eHow article as authoritative about Protestantism is like getting your Roman Catholic doctrine from a comic book. It frequently is not the most reliable source.

Step 2 as quoted above is not orthodox Protestantism.

 

[JRKH]

ufamtobie:
Jmonieyideas,

Do you really want to know? Ok I know this may sound harsh but the truth is, it was actually satan who started the protestant reformation, Luther and Calvin, etc… were pawns. The proof is in the pudding look at the mess theses men started, …

I agree that Satan was behind the problems that split the Church in the 16th century but I believe you oversimplify above by casting the blame solely onto the reformers.

Satan was at work long before Martin Luther and John Calvin came on the scene. Ole Scratch was busy worming his way int the Church through any weak and vulnerable, or prideful and greedy person he could find. In fact, it was the success of these very efforts on satan’s part that led to the Luthers and the Calvins.
The oft pointed to “selling of indulgences” - the subject of Luther’s 95 theses, and the Catholic response that “this was a sinful abuse by individuals and not Church teaching” proves that the evil one was working both sides of the fence in order to crack and split the unity of the Church.
Additional examples of satan’s efforts in the church could be pointed out. In fact some of our great saints were called forth by God to address laxity and abuse within the Church.

Luther, Calvin, Zwingli and others were not the first to attempt a reform of the Church, and at least in Luther’s case, he did not start out to split from the Church. I don’t know enough about Calvin or Zwingli to say what their desire was. In any event these men simply came along at particularly volatile time in history and through them and around them brewed the “perfect storm” that resulted in the Protestant Reformation…Part theology, part nationalism, part political and social, and ALL to the delight of satan.

So - All of this rambling above sums up in this. There was enough blame, enough sin, enough “work of satan” on both sides of the reformation. There is no need to try to lay it all on Luther and Calvin and co.

That said, I agree that in the last 500 years, Satan has taken full advantage of the Protestant doctrine rejecting the authoritative church to continually divide and confuse. The results are many different “churches” teaching various and sometimes conflicting doctrines all based on the Bible…

Peace
James

 

[jlhargus]

**I thank God for the Gift of eternal life through the faith of Jesus Christ who died the death we deserved, and whose blood save us for all time., and it has proven to be exactly that, a gift that we could never earn. **

JL: I would hope all would thank God for the Gift of eternal life. Yes salvation is exactly that, a gift that we could never earn. The Church has taught that for 2000 years now.

1 Jn 1:5-10 ** This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.** NASU
Where in this scripture does it say we must make ourselves become sinless?

JL: It doesn’t and no scripture says WE must make OURSELVES sinless, we can’t. Yet it says if we CONFESS our sins, Christ will FORGIVE US our sins AND cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness. If we say that we have fellowship with Him AND yet WALK IN THE DARKNESS, WE LIE and do not practice the truth. We can’t be born again and walk in darkness and light at the same time. We must repent and confess our sins of darkness. Then Christ will forgive and cleans us of ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS restoring us to light. As 1Jn1:7 tells us IF we walk in light we have fellowship with Him. Do you think the unrighteous will inherit the kingdom?

[1Cor6:9 Know ye not that THE UNRIGHTEOUS **SHALL NOT

INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,] How many times can one be a fornicatortor, an idolater, an adulterer before they are UNRIGHTEOUS walking in darkness?

[Gal5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.] How many times can one murder before they are a murderer walking in darkness?

]Jms1:14 But every man is tempted, WHEN he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and SIN, when it is finished, bringeth forth DEATH.]

Does not John declare that if we say we have not sinned, We make Him a liar and His word is not in us? Jesus died in our place, His blood washes away our sins, once and forever. It does not mean we can now practice sin, but we must remember our humanity in that we do sin.

For ‘If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.’ But ‘If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.’

I simply believe the words that John wrote and am fully confident that “… He is faithful and righteous to forgive us of my sins and to cleanse our [including me] from all unrighteousness.” A work he will do in me. Why should I not trust Him do what He said he would do, why would I ever want to take that awful burden of being sinless upon my own shoulders. I am joyful for what God has done for me.

JL: [1Jn5:18 WE KNOW THAT WHOSOEVER IS BORN OF GOD SINNETH NOT, but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.] Is John or scripture contradicting themselves or is it your interpretation that’s contradicting other scripture? Contradiction is what happens when cafeteria style selection of scripture to the avoidance of others is practiced.

There is deadly sin we call mortal and sin not unto death we call venial. Venial sins we have with us always so no one can say they have NO SIN. I examine my day and confess my venial sins at evening prayer. Deadly or mortal sins we also confess to God and go to the sacrament of Confession. When one goes to confession they do not always have deadly sins to confess. They confess venial sins and express sorry for their past deadly sins. This is a help in overcoming faults in order to grow in love of God and neighbor.

1Jn5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is NOT UNTO DEATH, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. THERE IS A SIN UNTO DEATH: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 17 All unrighteousness is sin: and THERE IS A SIN NOT UNTO DEATH. 1Jn5:18 WE KNOW THAT WHOSOEVER IS BORN OF GOD SINNETH NOT, but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

 

[jlhargus]

Holiness is not the absence of sin in my life, for a rock is sinless and yet not holy, but I am Holy because of the very presence of God in my life.

JL: Correct absence of sin does not make anyone holy. It is the indwelling Holy Spirit given at baptism. Being born again by water AND of the Spirit, Jn3:5. Acts2 tells us clearly how we are set on the road of salvation.

[Acts2:37 Now when **THEY HEARD this, they were PRICKED IN THEIR HEART, and SAID unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, WHAT SHALL WE DO? 38 Then PETER SAID unto them, REPENT, and BE BAPTIZED EVERY ONE OF YOU in the name of Jesus Christ FOR the REMISSION OF SINS, and ye shall RECEIVE the gift of THE HOLY GHOST. 39 For THE PROMISE is unto you, AND to YOUR CHILDREN, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.]

First they HEARD the Word, it periced their HEART, they BELIEVED. Told to REPENT, be BAPTIZED FOR remission of sins, RECEIVE the gift of the Holy Spirit.

[Acts2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, **SAVE YOURSELVES **from the untoward generation. 41 Then THEY that gladly RECEIVED his word were BAPTIZED: and the SAME DAY were **ADDED UNTO THEM **about three thousand souls. 42 And THEY CONTINUED stedfastly IN THE APOSTLES’ doctrine and FELLOWSHIP, and in brading of bread, and in prayers.] Peter says SAVE YOURSELVES. How? By being BAPTIZED thru which they WERE ADDED to that ONE VISIBLE apostolic fellowship the Church.]

[1Pt3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, **eight souls were SAVED BY WATER. 21 THE LIKE FIGURE whereunto even BAPTISM doth also NOW SAVE US (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:]

[Titus:3:5 **Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but ACCORDING TO HIS MERCY HE SAVED US, BY THE WASHING OF REGENERATION, AND RENEWING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT;] How does scripture tell us we are WASHED, [Act22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and **BE BAPTIZED, and WASH AWAY THEY SINS, calling on the name of the Lord.]

Did Naahman earn his healing of leprosy, by works, because he did as God commanded? Didn’t God do the healing work using water and dipping seven times?

[Gal 3:26 For **YE ARE all the CHILDREN OF GOD by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For AS MANY of you AS HAVE BEEN BAPTIZED into Christ HAVE PUT ON CHRIST.]

God made it so easy to be saved, and have eternal life, and be in His fellowship, and we with one another…

But many humans are so self deceived by thinking they must perform the feats of Hercules, and they end up in a quandary by taking upon themselves Sisyphean tasks to prove themselves worthy of God and His salvation.

JL: Yes many are self deceived even though God made it easy. I don’t know any Catholics as you describe. As sad as that would be I’m sure there are that sort of people in every faith group.

 

[CopticChristian]

I am new to the Lord. I go to a little Non Denominational Church that is more anti catholic than non denominational. My pastor is so against Catholicism even though he was raised Catholic. He ended up in the Pentecostal denomination where he became a Pastor. I am leaning toward the Catholic side in my religious life. The History and Christ seem to line up with the Roman Catholic Church in my opinion. Since doing more research about our Faith, I mean our Faith in Christ not the different forms of the Faith, who do you feel has caused the biggest so called reformation of the The Church of Christ? Calvin, Luther or someone else. I am so green in my walk that I am soaking everything in like a sponge. This weekend I am going to a mass and my church… Love the lord and love the history of the Church!

Catherine of Sienna:thumbsup:

 

[CopticChristian]

Hey, Jmoney!

I agree with JRKH about your pastor’s attitude toward Catholicism. He’s probably so vehement because he was part of the church at one time. Quality control in Protestant churches is quite poor.** You might consider trying other Protestant churches instead of judging them all by this one guy.**
I think a study of church history is valuable. I am mid-way through a Historical Theology course at a local seminary. My view at this point is two-fold:

1. The more I learn the more complicated it gets
2. Most of church history is chain reactions. Church fathers reacted against heresy but then went too far. Welcoming relief from persecution, the church embraced the state but went to far when it committed its own persecution of heretics. The reformers reacted to the abuses of the church but went too far in rejecting tradition. The Roman church reacted against the reformers by hardening her positions.

In the early centuries, the beliefs of the church were defined by something called the Regula Fide–the things everyone believed. This tiny body of doctrine was expanded positively through the development of theology proper (the development of the doctrine of the Trinity is a good example of this) and negatively through alignment with the state and increasing levels of hierarchy. Until the 16th century, we managed to keep together one cathoic (little c = universal) church–although there were strong undercurrents of reform for many years prior to the Reformation. One can look at the Reformation as an event, but it was really a process that, frankly, is still going on today. I write all of this to demonstrate that Roman Catholics and Protestants share a considerable past, and both can claim to trace an unbroken line back to Jesus Christ himself.

When I boil it down, the fundamental differences between Roman Catholics and orthodox Protestants are their views of scripture and the institution of the church. Both groups consider the scriptures to be the infallible revelation of God to man. The rub comes when we examine their views on the role of the church. Roman Catholics would say that the history and traditions of the church are also part of God’s infallible revelation and that the church is in a position of authority over scripture, faith and practice. If the church says marriage is a sacrament, even though it is not described as such in the Bible, it is a sacrament. Orthodox Protestants, on the other hand, recognize the importance of the history and traditions of the church and does not reject them, but it would teach that the Bible is the authority in matters of faith and practice. For them, the Bible holds authority over history and tradition. Therefore, much of the schism between the two groups is borne of their different views on the authority of the church.

This is the point at which you need to decide which best aligns with Jesus and history. Basing a decision on a man standing in a pulpit is shaky at best.

Or you could just start visiting all the Catholic Churches East and West. Be sure to go to any Eastern Catholic Church in your neighborhood and ask each and everyone of the people that go there questions about Catholics and Protestants.

Here is the Daytona Byzantine Website

byzcath.org/index.php/find-a-parish-mainmenu-111?catid=18

Ukranian Catholic

home.catholicweb.com/StMaryApopka/index.cfm/NewsItem?ID=115898&From=Home

Look for Melkite, Chaldean, Syrian, Coptic and any other Eastern Rite Church. There are over 20…

Then as you look at Catholic and Protestant East and West you can have a better handle on things.

 

[CopticChristian]

I don’t want to dampen your zeal for understanding the history of Christianity. However, I encourage you to focus simply upon the Lord. He is, after all, the center. Explore your new-found identity as His child. Soak in the Scriptures. Dive into music that puts you in a worshipful attitude. I believe that He will be faithful to guide you to exactly where you need to be.

Oh - and welcome to the family! We might be dysfunctional, but we’re glad that you’re here.

Absolutely and as you soak in translations of the Scriptures realize that the

Oriental Churches have a different canon than the
Orthodox Churches and
Catholic Churches

Now all of the above use the Septuagint

and the Protestant translations are different…so don’t spend too much time on history soak in your translation of Scripture Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic or English translation.

 

[CopticChristian]

As a Calvinist I would say Calvin. But remember there were many different “reformers” withen the “Reformed” movement.** Calvin started something that Reformed christians have developed**.

Are you saying that Calvinistic Doctrine developed?