Calvinists, What Can I do to Assure My Election?

[reccanboy]

The beliefs of Calvin are in contradiction of numerous scriptural passages indicating that salvation must be achieved by good acts. Obviously this was advice designed to be taken into consideration for this life rather than some previous existence. What’s the point of our current existence, all our pain and suffering if our fate has already been decided? None of this makes any sense if Calvin is correct.

If salvation is achieved by good works, then why did Jesus state in John 6:39-40 that salvation cannot be lost?

 

[Truthstalker]

The beliefs of Calvin are in contradiction of numerous scriptural passages indicating that salvation must be achieved by good acts. Obviously this was advice designed to be taken into consideration for this life rather than some previous existence. What’s the point of our current existence, all our pain and suffering if our fate has already been decided? None of this makes any sense if Calvin is correct.

The idea that God comes ONLY to distribute justice is not good news, as we all get it in the neck. Salvation is achieved by faith, not “good acts” which are a consequence of grace, not something people do on their own.

The point of life is to know God and to enjoy Him forever. God punishes both now and at the final judgement; He also disciplines His children, which can seem a lot like punishment, but with the end in view that we would know Him. He isn’t willing to wait until we die to start the sanctification process.

Yes we suffer. Yes life is unfair. It only makes sense if God Himself suffered and died an unfair death, which He did. If He was willing to die for us, we should be willing to die for Him. But we aren’t. He has to make us to be willing to die for Him.

We have free will, but it has been bent by sin. Only by the liberating power of grace can it be said that we truly have free will.
To say that man, on his own, in his own power, can choose to be saved is quite clearly Pelagian.

The point is love. God is love.

 

[CWBetts]

The idea that God comes ONLY to distribute justice is not good news, as we all get it in the neck. Salvation is achieved by faith, not “good acts” which are a consequence of grace, not something people do on their own.

The point of life is to know God and to enjoy Him forever. God punishes both now and at the final judgement; He also disciplines His children, which can seem a lot like punishment, but with the end in view that we would know Him. He isn’t willing to wait until we die to start the sanctification process.

Yes we suffer. Yes life is unfair. It only makes sense if God Himself suffered and died an unfair death, which He did. If He was willing to die for us, we should be willing to die for Him. But we aren’t. He has to make us to be willing to die for Him.

We have free will, but it has been bent by sin. Only by the liberating power of grace can it be said that we truly have free will.
To say that man, on his own, in his own power, can choose to be saved is quite clearly Pelagian.

The point is love. God is love.

So in other words God arbitrarily decides who gets saved? Whatever happened to “For God so loved the WORLD…”

 

[Truthstalker]

So in other words God arbitrarily decides who gets saved? Whatever happened to “For God so loved the WORLD…”

Oh, I see. You are in charge of the universe. You are your own savior and there is no room for predestination.

NOTHING happened to John 3:16. The only whosoevers though are those whom God works in to save.

You guys tend to make me think the accusations of Pelagianism in the Catholic Church are well founded.

 

[CWBetts]

Oh, I see. You are in charge of the universe. You are your own savior and there is no room for predestination.

NOTHING happened to John 3:16. The only whosoevers though are those whom God works in to save.

You guys tend to make me think the accusations of Pelagianism in the Catholic Church are well founded.

We cannot save ourselves. Only God can do that. But to say that God chose me arbitrarily is sheer nonsense. I will say God even puts desire in me to seek salvation. He puts that desire in everyone, but it will be few who answer his call, and fewer still who find the right path. In other words we are all part of the elect, but not all of us will continue on the journey in the right path. Calvinists are among those who have strayed.

 

[severntofall]

The idea that God comes ONLY to distribute justice is not good news, as we all get it in the neck. Salvation is achieved by faith, not “good acts” which are a consequence of grace, not something people do on their own.

Then I supose that the numerous verses in the NT were wrong about the necessity of good acts and producing “fruit” and workers getting paid were completely wrong. I’m cool with that.

The point of life is to know God and to enjoy Him forever. God punishes both now and at the final judgement; He also disciplines His children, which can seem a lot like punishment, but with the end in view that we would know Him. He isn’t willing to wait until we die to start the sanctification process.

What brings you to this belief? Can’t we know God and enjoy him forever in heaven? What’s the point of all the pain and suffering in this life? What was the point of Jesus teaching us how to live if it has no impact upon anything. Why punish us in this life if our fate has already been determined? What value is their to anything we could learn in this life if our place in heaven or hell was determined before our birth? Again, what is the point of this eternal existence if upon our death our eyes will be opened and we will have knowledge of all this?

Yes we suffer. Yes life is unfair. It only makes sense if God Himself suffered and died an unfair death, which He did. If He was willing to die for us, we should be willing to die for Him. But we aren’t. He has to make us to be willing to die for Him.

God chose his unfair death, we didn’t. Jesus’ fate does nothing to make sense of this mortal existence as there is no purpose to it. Whether we’re “willing” to die for Jesus or will change our fate not one iota according to your beliefs. To your faith, good acts are just a show, to demonstrate to yourself and the world that you are one of the lucky ones who God chose. Just how is it God determines our fate? What brings his to save some and condemn others, and what evidence do you have to support this belief?

We have free will, but it has been bent by sin. Only by the liberating power of grace can it be said that we truly have free will.
To say that man, on his own, in his own power, can choose to be saved is quite clearly Pelagian.

Their is no contradiction in saying that doors to heaven have been opened by Christ, but every man must choose to pass through those doors on his own. Again, as an agnostic (really an unaligned theist), this is not my belief. Traditional Christian theology makes much more sense; plus the notion that our salvation is determined arbitrarily by God is just disturbing.

The point is love. God is love.

Unless you are one of those he arbitrarily sends to hell.

 

[Truthstalker]

We cannot save ourselves. Only God can do that. But to say that God chose me arbitrarily is sheer nonsense. I will say God even puts desire in me to seek salvation. He puts that desire in everyone, but it will be few who answer his call, and fewer still who find the right path. In other words we are all part of the elect, but not all of us will continue on the journey in the right path. Calvinists are among those who have strayed.

So on what basis is it that He selects someone and gives them the gift of final perseverance? You are saying it is intrinsic to the individual. We choose, then, to be saved. So you are saying we arbitrarily choose, which is supposed to make more sense than the Sovereign One choosing?

 

[CWBetts]

So on what basis is it that He selects someone and gives them the gift of final perseverance? You are saying it is intrinsic to the individual. We choose, then, to be saved. So you are saying we arbitrarily choose, which is supposed to make more sense than the Sovereign One choosing?

GOd gave us a free will. It is our choice to do good or to do evil. We are not little automatons where god said “okay these are the Good Guys, and those are the Bad Guys” which is prcisely what predestination is. We have no choice, no free will in the matter. Occasionally God will harden someones heart, but only tp propel salvation foreward. You are starting to argue against yourself. Please stop.

 

[Truthstalker]

severntofall, please learn to use the quote functions. It makes it easier to respond. Thanks.

Then I supose that the numerous verses in the NT were wrong about the necessity of good acts and producing “fruit” and workers getting paid were completely wrong. I’m cool with that.

Non sequitor.

What brings you to this belief? Can’t we know God and enjoy him forever in heaven? What’s the point of all the pain and suffering in this life? What was the point of Jesus teaching us how to live if it has no impact upon anything. Why punish us in this life if our fate has already been determined? What value is their to anything we could learn in this life if our place in heaven or hell was determined before our birth? Again, what is the point of this eternal existence if upon our death our eyes will be opened and we will have knowledge of all this?

All of us have rejected God. We all stand condemned. We have messed up the world, which is why there is so much pain in it. God allowed that to happen, but He also uses it for good. And there is value and reward. Life is not meaningless. Christ Himself is our reward. Nothing else really matters.

“Fate”, by which I think you mean “final destination” differs from reward, which God gives as He pleases. Some will hear “well done, good and faithful servant. Enter into the joy of your master.”

Works follow faith. Without works, faith is dead. You must trust Him. It does matter what you do.

God chose his unfair death, we didn’t. Jesus’ fate does nothing to make sense of this mortal existence as there is no purpose to it. Whether we’re “willing” to die for Jesus or will change our fate not one iota according to your beliefs. To your faith, good acts are just a show, to demonstrate to yourself and the world that you are one of the lucky ones who God chose. Just how is it God determines our fate? What brings his to save some and condemn others, and what evidence do you have to support this belief?

Did I answer this for you in the preceding? Probably not all, but some.
According to Ephesians 1 God chose us before the foundation of the world. According to John “You did not choose Me but I chose you.” There are many passages indicating God predestines and chooses those He saves.

Good acts are not a show. And there is a difference between luck and the sovereign free choice of God.

Their is no contradiction in saying that doors to heaven have been opened by Christ, but every man must choose to pass through those doors on his own. Again, as an agnostic (really an unaligned theist), this is not my belief. Traditional Christian theology makes much more sense; plus the notion that our salvation is determined arbitrarily by God is just disturbing.

Man is unable to freely choose to pass through those doors on his own. He needs the help of God;s grace to even have free will.
Fallen man, on his own, rejects God’s grace and rejects the door that God opened. God must move in someone’e heart with what Catholics call prevenient grace before man can even begin to assent to God working in Him. God goes before us in us to save us.

Would you rather have God or yourself in charge of your salvation? I trust God much more than I trust myself.

Unless you are one of those he arbitrarily sends to hell.

I would accept double predestination only it were a logical consequence of the situation. All men reject God. He selects some to be saved. The others are justly punished. If His non-selection of some is a positive act, then there is reprobation, that is, He deliberately made some people only to damn them. If, however, He merely left them to their just fate, is He at fault? And while Luther and Calvin both accepted double predestination, I don’t. Neither does the Catholic church - but it accepts single predestination.

God arbitrarily, without consulting you or me, made the world, made you, made me. We cannot fault Him for arbitrary and sovereign acts. That is His nature. His nature, at the same time, is love. God is not self-contradictory, so His sovereign acts, His just acts, His arbitrary and unfathomable acts, are at the same time acts of love.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

If salvation is achieved by good works, then why did Jesus state in John 6:39-40 that salvation cannot be lost?

He doesn’t say that at all. He says that those who believe in him he will raise up on the last day.

Those who believe at one point but refuse to follow Jesus will not continue to believe in him.

Faith without works is dead.

Jesus also said:

John 15
Now remain in my love. 10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

and this

Matt 7
21"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

How do the first statements contradict the second? You haven’t shown the incompatibility. You have merely asserted there is a contradiction, without defining what you mean by the Calvinist concepts you refer to. I am not sure how you are defining them.

I define them as Calvinists do.

Don’t act as if you don’t understand them.

Address them one by one if you can. My points are clear:

2002 God’s free initiative demands man’s free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy.

1. demands Man’s free response. This contradicts unconditional election and irresistible grace. This means our response is a necessary component of election.
2. **conferring on him freedom. **This contradicts the Calvinist notion that only the elect can be saved.
3. The Soul only enters freely into the communion of love. This directly contradicts irresistible grace.
4. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness. This means all men, not the elect only. Calvinists believe that the “non elect” do not long for God.

 

[severntofall]

severntofall, please learn to use the quote functions. It makes it easier to respond. Thanks.

I will try.

Non sequitor.

That’s absolutely untrue, there are in fact many verses in the NT that clearly indicate that humans play a role in determining their eternal destination. You can deny this only if you do not view the NT as an authoritative text. This contradiction may not bother you as you faith seems to be built upon them.

All of us have rejected God. We all stand condemned. We have messed up the world, which is why there is so much pain in it. God allowed that to happen, but He also uses it for good. And there is value and reward. Life is not meaningless. Christ Himself is our reward. Nothing else really matters.

Your faith views rejection of God and deservedness of damnation to be innate human characteristics. At the same time you believe that we were fashioned in God’s image. You affirm that we are the result of God’s creation, that we are as God designed us. If we are in fact innately worthy of damnation, then this is according to God’s design and desire. Why would God willingly design us so horrifically flawed, and why would he allow this flaw to remain? Why would God condemn most of us eternally for flaws we had no role in obtaining, for flaws he “gifted” us with? Why would God choose to save some of us, and allow the rest of us to suffer the fate that is inevitably ours through no fault of our own?

“Fate”, by which I think you mean “final destination” differs from reward, which God gives as He pleases. Some will hear “well done, good and faithful servant. Enter into the joy of your master.”

Works follow faith. Without works, faith is dead. You must trust Him. It does matter what you do.

What motivates God to allow some of us into his kingdom and to leave the rest of us to our “deserved” fate? What is the value of works, if they have no real impact on your eternal destination? Granted, treating people kindly is great, but what should motivate a person to care if they are only motivated by their potential salvation? Is it merely because good works “prove” that you are in fact “saved”? Are they merely a show?

Did I answer this for you in the preceding? Probably not all, but some.
According to Ephesians 1 God chose us before the foundation of the world. According to John “You did not choose Me but I chose you.” There are many passages indicating God predestines and chooses those He saves.

Good acts are not a show. And there is a difference between luck and the sovereign free choice of God.

Most would say that God did not choose some of us but rather he choose all of us. The notion that salvation is based purely upon God’s whims and nothing more is disturbing and speaks very poorly for a being who is said to love us all. Good acts are not a show, then what are they? What value do they have outside of the obvious?

Man is unable to freely choose to pass through those doors on his own. He needs the help of God;s grace to even have free will.
Fallen man, on his own, rejects God’s grace and rejects the door that God opened. God must move in someone’e heart with what Catholics call prevenient grace before man can even begin to assent to God working in Him. God goes before us in us to save us.

Would you rather have God or yourself in charge of your salvation? I trust God much more than I trust myself.

If I do go to hell, I’d like to at least believe that I deserved it, rather than having it determined arbitrarily. This notion that we all “deserve” damnation inevitable means that God specifically designed us with damnation in mind. I would find it very difficult to trust a being that created me with the intention of condemning me to eternal hell.

I would accept double predestination only it were a logical consequence of the situation. All men reject God. He selects some to be saved. The others are justly punished.

The others are “justly punished”? How is there anything just in punishing a creature for being what it was designed to be? For being what it cannot help but be, for what it is intrinsically is.

God arbitrarily, without consulting you or me, made the world, made you, made me. We cannot fault Him for arbitrary and sovereign acts. That is His nature. His nature, at the same time, is love. God is not self-contradictory, so His sovereign acts, His just acts, His arbitrary and unfathomable acts, are at the same time acts of love.

Ultimately you may be correct…I never said God wasn’t evil, which he certainly is if your faith is correct. One can only hope that he is not.

 

[flameburns623]

Anything?

To try to explain this as a Calvinist would do . . .You can do nothing to assure your election. Although certain things will point you in the direction of feeling an assurance of your election.

1. You can have an implicit trust in the Bible that if you have sincerely professed Jesus Christ as Savior and are trusting in His finished work on the Cross, you have been saved, are being saved, and will be saved.
2. With birth comes growth: if you are truly a born-anew son of God by adoption into the life of Christ, your life will manifest some measure of spiritual growth. You will do certain things as a result of being saved–but not TO BE SAVED nor TO KEEP FROM BEING LOST.
3. In many cases, especially in early Calvinistic practice–you can receive an inward testimony of your election through humble, heartfelt prayer and seeking of God’s Holy ghost. One sees this, for example, in the Pilgrim of Bunyan’s Pilgrim’s Progress, where the Pilgrim at first feels weighed down by his sins, but later, by both prayer and by obedience comes to an inward knowledge he is liberated from those sins.

Is any of this separately or all of it together infallible? No, which is one of the flaws of the doctrine of eternal assurance. But one can say that of those of whom all three elements above were true–the vast majority were elect, whereas of those who lacked such elements the vast majority were damned. That is to say–we cannot know for certain that Hitler is in Hell and that Mother Teresa is in Heaven–but the probabilities are skewed very much in favor of both situations being true.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

So on what basis is it that He selects someone and gives them the gift of final perseverance? You are saying it is intrinsic to the individual. We choose, then, to be saved. So you are saying we arbitrarily choose, which is supposed to make more sense than the Sovereign One choosing?

Perseverance is not a gift, it is an effort.

Strive for holiness.Run the race to win. Endure. These are commands to us, not descriptions of God’s grace.

 

[Truthstalker]

Perseverance is not a gift, it is an effort.

Strive for holiness.Run the race to win. Endure. These are commands to us, not descriptions of God’s grace.

You should read newadvent.org/cathen/11711a.htm

Catholic Church teaching is that final perseverance is a gift. Are you interested in what the Church teaches, or only in promoting Pelagianism in the guise of claiming to be Catholic? I doubt you will read it. Did you read the Akin link? I doubt you did. You have failed to answer numerous questions and posts of mine, and I see no reason to respond at length to anything you post. There needs to be some demonstration of good will on your part for discussion to continue. So far there is a remarkable lack of that on your part.

 

[Truthstalker]

I will try.

Non sequitor.

That’s absolutely untrue, there are in fact many verses in the NT that clearly indicate that humans play a role in determining their eternal destination. You can deny this only if you do not view the NT as an authoritative text. This contradiction may not bother you as you faith seems to be built upon them.

Your faith views rejection of God and deservedness of damnation to be innate human characteristics. At the same time you believe that we were fashioned in God’s image. You affirm that we are the result of God’s creation, that we are as God designed us. If we are in fact innately worthy of damnation, then this is according to God’s design and desire. Why would God willingly design us so horrifically flawed, and why would he allow this flaw to remain? Why would God condemn most of us eternally for flaws we had no role in obtaining, for flaws he “gifted” us with? Why would God choose to save some of us, and allow the rest of us to suffer the fate that is inevitably ours through no fault of our own?

What motivates God to allow some of us into his kingdom and to leave the rest of us to our “deserved” fate? What is the value of works, if they have no real impact on your eternal destination? Granted, treating people kindly is great, but what should motivate a person to care if they are only motivated by their potential salvation? Is it merely because good works “prove” that you are in fact “saved”? Are they merely a show?

Most would say that God did not choose some of us but rather he choose all of us. The notion that salvation is based purely upon God’s whims and nothing more is disturbing and speaks very poorly for a being who is said to love us all. Good acts are not a show, then what are they? What value do they have outside of the obvious?

If I do go to hell, I’d like to at least believe that I deserved it, rather than having it determined arbitrarily. This notion that we all “deserve” damnation inevitable means that God specifically designed us with damnation in mind. I would find it very difficult to trust a being that created me with the intention of condemning me to eternal hell.

The others are “justly punished”? How is there anything just in punishing a creature for being what it was designed to be? For being what it cannot help but be, for what it is intrinsically is.

Ultimately you may be correct…I never said God wasn’t evil, which he certainly is if your faith is correct. One can only hope that he is not.

Your reponse makes me wonder if you read what I wrote at all.
God is not evil nor is He the author of evil. We have enough free will to be accountable for our sins, but not enough that we can live good and holy lives on our own. The issues you raise go far beyond what can be dealt with on this one thread. God is good and just and merciful. He will not compromise His justice for His mercy, nor His mercy for His justice.

We all deserve hell. God in His mercy saves some. You seem to blame Him for that.

 

[severntofall]

Your reponse makes me wonder if you read what I wrote at all.
God is not evil nor is He the author of evil. We have enough free will to be accountable for our sins, but not enough that we can live good and holy lives on our own. The issues you raise go far beyond what can be dealt with on this one thread. God is good and just and merciful. He will not compromise His justice for His mercy, nor His mercy for His justice.

We all deserve hell. God in His mercy saves some. You seem to blame Him for that.

Perhaps I am way off base. Can you explain to me just how we all deserve hell, without that somehow being a fault in God’s design? If we all deserve hell, obviously it couldn’t be a coincidence, but rather apart of our design. God, if I understand correctly is our designer. If you are correct, our deservedness of hell is as much apart of our design as is having 2 ears and a nose. How could it be the result of any thing else? Why are some people saved while others are not?

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

You should read newadvent.org/cathen/11711a.htm

Catholic Church teaching is that final perseverance is a gift.

QUOTE]

This is what the Church teaches. You’ve already read it, yet you insist on distorting it for some reason:

2002 God’s free initiative demands man’s free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy.

2015 The way of perfection passes by way of the Cross. There is no holiness without renunciation and spiritual battle.68 Spiritual progress entails the ascesis and mortification that gradually lead to living in the peace and joy of the Beatitudes:

And even more clearly here:

Perseverance in faith

162 Faith is an entirely free gift that God makes to man. **We can lose this priceless gift, as St. Paul indicated to St. Timothy: **"Wage the good warfare, holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting conscience, certain persons have made shipwreck of their faith."44 To live, grow and persevere in the faith until the end we must nourish it with the word of God; we must beg the Lord to increase our faith;45 it must be “working through charity,” abounding in hope, and rooted in the faith of the Church.46

 

[severntofall]

Perhaps I am way off base. Can you explain to me just how we all deserve hell, without that somehow being a fault in God’s design? If we all deserve hell, obviously it couldn’t be a coincidence, but rather apart of our design. God, if I understand correctly is our designer. If you are correct, our deservedness of hell is as much apart of our design as is having 2 ears and a nose. How could it be the result of any thing else? Why are some people saved while others are not?

I didn’t think so.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

I didn’t think so.

That always trips them up.

Sometimes they respond that the predetermined unpreventable torture of millions of people is necessary to demonstate God’s glory and justice.

Hmmm… Not buying it!