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notself
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josephdavid
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What upset me is saying that I am accomplice to murder if I do not agree with the death penalty. That is what I called a pathetic argument.
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O.S.Luke
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That is the most ridiculous ethical and moral argument I have ever seen in my entire life.
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block
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Ok how about this, if the murder has already taken place, would you then be justified to kill the man who commited the murder? Obviously you would take any means necassary to defend the innocent life that is being threatened, but what if the life is already gone?
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josephdavid
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To me that is the same argument used by many priests, Bishops and laity for the last election. If you voted for anyone other than McCain you are in support of abortion.
Crazy, sad and ignorant.
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O.S.Luke
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And to go even further, using the same argument, if one remains an American that has a president that is pro-Abortion, then just by being an American citizen, you are implicitly an accomplice to murder!
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block
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Whooaaaa to say that if you voted for Obama means you support abortion is kinda far fetched don’t you think? Does that mean if you voted for McCain you support war?
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josephdavid
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They will tell you 1.2 million lives are more important than the 10’s of thousands of lives lost in an unecessary war.
I was always taught all lives are important and yet they can not find with in CCC, Scripture and Catholic Social Teaching one life is more important than the other.
Furthemore I did not vote for Obama. I wrote in my vote who voted consistantly with in my faith from womb to tomb.
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Dismas2004
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The difference is that Abortion is always immoral. Capital Punishment is not. We can support any candidate who supports Capital Punishment, but we can not support any candidate who supports Abortion. While the argument is similar - it is different because it is morally acceptable to support Capital Punishment, it is NOT in the event of support Abortion. To willfully vote for someone who is Pro-Abortion is to advance the abortion agenda.
It’s not a matter of WHO you voted for per se, as it is what agenda did you vote for: Pro-Life - a fundamental right from which we receive all other rights, or Pro-Abortion - the destruction of the fundamental right to life?
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block
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Nor did I vote for Obama, and I agree with what you’ve said, I just don’t think it would be fair to say someone supports abortion for voting for somebody.
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Dismas2004
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There’s a difference between actively supporting and advancing the agenda of life or death and just being born American. Furthermore more - one of the greatest parts of being American is the right participate in changing policy by voting. We used to support slavery - we don’t anymore. We woke up and realized it was wrong. Would you use the same argument 50 years ago - remember truth is not relative.
Do you support the following: *And to go even further, using the same argument, if one remains an American that has a president that is pro-slavery, then just by being an American citizen, you are implicitly an accomplice to slavery!
*You have a Master’s of Divinity - You know better!
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josephdavid
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Well just to let you know i wrote in Sen. Nelson from Nebraska for my vote. He is far more consistant on voting pro-life than McCain. Gees… McCain, his career, did not show up for almost half the anti-abortion bills that came to vote on the floor (source votesmart.org)! Before he won the primaries he was considered not so anti-abortion until suddenly late in the primaries he was anti-abortion.
Also in regards to the death penalty. Christ taught us about forgiveness. When we kill some one to punish them for their past deeds we do not show forgiveness.
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Dismas2004
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Sure why not - and a lot of other issues. The difference is that War is not a fundamental issue. If you don’t have aright to life, nothing else matters. If you don’t get born you don’t get to log in to Catholics Answer’s Forums and post stuff like this.
Without life, nothing else matters.
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Dismas2004
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Again - it’s not that they voted for someone, it that’s they voted for a particular agenda. Obama is decidedly Pro-Abortion. He has stated the first thing he wants to accomplish is a women right to an abortion.
I’m a frustrated democrat. I love their platform on most issues, but I can not vote for them until a pro-life democrat emerges. I can not vote for an agenda that treats my unborn son as a medical condition and as property to be disposed of.
Many people use the same argument you are using as if it some kind of mean thing to not vote for someone because of their beliefs. Would you same the same if you were living in Germany in the 30’s and 40? Let’s look at your question again:
I just don’t think it would be fair to say someone supports genocide for voting for somebody like Hitler.
Do you agree with that?
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Dismas2004
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I voted for McCain because it was either going to be him or Obama. A vote for anyone other than McCain helps Obama and his agenda win. It worked too. McCain does support abortion but limited whereas Obama is for unlimited abortion. He was the lesser of the two and more Pro-Life.
Christ did teach us forgiveness, that’s in the Catechism too. So is the Capital punishment. I’m against Capital Punishment as it is used currently, but I can see a need ofr it in very very rare cases.
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maggiemay2u
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I am not an advocate of capital punishment, not because I don’t think the likes of Gacy, Bundy and Manson don’t deserve to die for their crimes, but because I don’t think I could be the one to pull the lever, fire the gun or slap the horse on the backside.
I find it incomprehensible, however, that individuals who speak so ardently on behalf of our Christian duty to the murderers, can cavalierly dismiss the millions of children, executed each year. There is no impartial judge, no jury, no attorney to ensure rights. There are no seemingly endless rounds of appeals.
Nothing and no one to speak for these human beings whose only crime was conception. Their execution is the decision of a person for whom there is financial gain and in many cases, a distraught female who is no more than a child herself.
What it says to me, is many of our brothers who are “personally opposed to abortion, but…” have bought in to the blob of tissue mentality. It says to me there are many who are flat out disingenuous when they say they are pro-life. They may see life as an issue, but it falls far behind their "progressive"ideals.
Christ-like? I don’t think so.
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Alexius
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It really comes down to guilt and innocence. An unborn child is innocent and without personal defects to merit punishment. One who committed a grave evil against another (murder, rape, etc.) does merit punishment. In most cases, guidelines allow for a range of sentences depending upon circumstances, frame of mind, past criminal history, etc. With the exception of a few countries, there is no mandatory death sentence–that is if someone does x then they must be sentenced to death w/o any other considerations (India has this for an inmate serving life who kills another while incarcerated). It is a judge/juries decision as to whether a guilty individual merits death. Also, in the USA, inmates may die of natural causes before they are executed. In most cases there is many years for a person on death row to consider their actions, repent and come to Christ (this has happened many times). Appeals drag on for years and in most cases, a person on death row is not innocent. It has happened, yes, but most of the time the death penalty is issued if there is little doubt as to guilt. In Texas, if you were witnessed by more than two people committing the crime, you are put in the express lane, as in the front of the line to be executed. Many states don’t have the death penalty, but even those that have it, generally don’t use it often (except for Texas).
Prayers and petitions,
Alexius
Prayers and petitions,
Alexius
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CHESTERTONRULES
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Someone who has committed remorseless and brutal murder is capable of doing so again.
Subjecting others to this person is immoral.
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CHESTERTONRULES
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block
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Ok, I have to admit, you made some good points and that last part actually made me smile, but I still stand by what I said. All I’m saying is that there were prolly a lot of people who voted for Obama who are against abortion but are so caught up in the economy and the war that they still voted for him. I am not sticking up for anybody, I’m just saying it’s a little unfair to make such a statement when there are clearly many reasons people voted for him.
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