Can a couple in good conscience use ABC if their pastor does not object?

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Sarcasm ON:

Hundreds of years ago, when the Church began requiring celibacy, one of the logics was that the Church couldn’t afford to support all those children that a priest might have, and to protect Church assets.

Yet, as Catholic marrieds, we are supposed to accept whatever life God sends our way, and figure out how to support them.

(and pay our tithes, of course)

“Don’t do as I do, do as I say do”

Sarcasm OFF

🤷
 
Brother_John said:
Hundreds of years ago, when the Church began requiring celibacy, one of the logics was that the Church couldn’t afford to support all those children that a priest might have, and to protect Church assets.
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Please cite a source for this assertion.
 
Brother_John said:
Sarcasm ON:Hundreds of years ago, when the Church began requiring celibacy, one of the logics was that the Church couldn’t afford to support all those children that a priest might have, and to protect Church assets.
Yet, as Catholic marrieds, we are supposed to accept whatever life God sends our way, and figure out how to support them.(and pay our tithes, of course):
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Pay, pray and obey!
 
Brother_John said:
Hundreds of years ago, when the Church began requiring celibacy, one of the logics was that the Church couldn’t afford to support all those children that a priest might have, and to protect Church assets.:
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Brother John, you will find the matter discussed in Sperry’s An Outline of the History of Clerical Celibacy in Western Europe to the Council of Trent, pp. 16-17, See also Charles A. Frazee, “The Origins of Clerical Celibacy in the Western Church,” Church History, Vol. 41, No. 2 (Jun., 1972), pp. 149-167.

Petrus
 
drpmjhess said:
Right – it’s a matter of the Church defining one technology as morally acceptable and another as not. The deeper issue is whether or not the contraceptive mentality is wrong, the mentality of wanting to have sex but not wanting to conceive children, and getting around prohibitions by using thermometric and calendrical technology.
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Yes, I so agree with this. The very name NFP means that it is trying to divorce the unitive and procreative acts by using a kind of legal loophole. The intention is the same as other contraceptive methods. ie to enjoy the unitive but not procreative parts.

To address Lily M’s comment, should we proliferate as fast as we possibly can in case that month we used NFP the ovum was destined to be someone special? Is that it? That reasoning would make NFP as bad as any other method of contraception.

I also must comment that the CCC acknowledges that sex between a husband and wife is unitive. That is, it strengthens the bond of marriage. I don’t think it is good advice to forgo that. In fact Scripture is quite explicit about that.
 
davidarlette said:
Yes, I so agree with this. The very name NFP means that it is trying to divorce the unitive and procreative acts by using a kind of legal loophole. The intention is the same as other contraceptive methods. ie to enjoy the unitive but not procreative parts.

To address Lily M’s comment, should we proliferate as fast as we possibly can in case that month we used NFP the ovum was destined to be someone special? Is that it? That reasoning would make NFP as bad as any other method of contraception…
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Yes. I have often heard the argument that by not having a dozen children we are depriving potential future Mozarts or Einsteins or Jonas Salks of existence. This bothers me because it reduces those children to their instrumental value for other humans. It also ignores the parallel implication that by not utilizing every possible pregnancy window in a woman’s fertile life we would thereby be depriving potential Hitlers and Charles Mansons of their existence as well.
 
Yes, I see here in this thread that there are still, many here who still just don’t get it. NFP that is.

Do you all who just don’t get it really want to tell me that I who wants as many kids as God will possibly allow me to have, do you honestly believe that I use NFP to divorce procreation and unity? Do you really want to say that to my (cyber) face?

‘Good conscience’ is what this thread is all about. I would move heaven and earth to be healthy enough to have baby after baby. But, God knows better and has a different plan for me. I have the dreaded “perfect family.” One boy, one girl, both perfect. You see me in the pew and you think I contracept because there are only 2. Then you squirm during the prayers of the faithful when I pray, “that all couples will be open to God’s plan for their family size.”

My priest would never presume to lead me to sin. He knows my husband and he knows me. My health is awful. Our finances can be very tight every time we have another hospital stay. Yet even with that he would never tell us, “maybe contraception is ok for you.” For one, he knows we would laugh in the face of the person who told us that, especially since contraception drives a massive wedge into marriage. For another, he is faithful to Church teaching and a fabulous priest.

Do you really think I approach the marital act thinking, “Oh gosh, I hope we don’t make a baby?” Or do you think maybe I approach it with a prayer in my heart thanking the Lord for allowing us to be procreative and unitive even when we can’t be reproductive?

Our chart is a window into God’s plan for our family. So what if the window is a little foggy here and there? Are we to dare to presume that God has now abandoned us? Are we to say, “since we don’t know the plan, there must not be one so we can take control?” Or worse yet, are we to say that God changed the design of the body to include barriers to becoming one flesh? NFP is the gathering of information and acting, or not acting, on that information.

For anyone to say to me that my chart has separated procreation from unity really doesn’t get it.
 
I, too, have some problems with child spacing with NFP. However, I can testify to the fact that most NFP couples are indeed open to life. But, that’s anecdotal.

I can’t believe that it is a sin to NOT have sex on any given day, and that is what you people are saying about people practicing NFP. Purposely not having sex on a fertile day is sinful? That is hard to believe.
 
PaulinVA said:
I, too, have some problems with child spacing with NFP. However, I can testify to the fact that most NFP couples are indeed open to life. But, that’s anecdotal.

I can’t believe that it is a sin to NOT have sex on any given day, and that is what you people are saying about people practicing NFP. Purposely not having sex on a fertile day is sinful? That is hard to believe.
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Based on what I read on threads like these…🤷
 
Brother_John said:
But, I’ve always wondered, what’s the difference between using a pill or condom, vs a thermometer or a calendar? Either is a method of enjoying the marital act while trying to avoid pregnancy…besides the fact that the Church declares itself not to be inconsistient 😊
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Would you, and those who share your point of view, be willing to consider something?

Our fertility is a gift from God. The cyclical nature of a woman’s fertility means that, most of the time, sex will not result in pregnancy. This is God’s perfect design and shows us how sex without babies is not inherently wrong. The Church acknowledges this reality and teaches that faithful Catholics may space pregnancies without complete abstinence, enjoying the marital embrace in times of reduced fertility.

The Church also teaches that fertility, as God’s precious gift, must never be despised or thwarted. Contraception (whether abortive, non-abortive, artificial or natural, like withdrawl) is what we use to thwart our own healthy, useful fertility. When we contracept, we say, “God, you have created in me a certain degree of fertility. Even though that fertility is healthy and useful, I have decided I know better and I am changing it to infertility.”

Fertility awareness/NFP on the other hand lets us say, “God, you have created in me a certain degree of fertility. By observing and appreciating it, I know how likely it is on any given day that sex will result in pregnancy. With this knowledge, I can prayerfully decide whether the marital embrace is a good idea today or not”.

Faithful Catholics may use birth control. Among birth control methods, only fertility awareness/NFP allows couples to work with their own natural (God-given) fertility/infertilty cycle to space babies rather than using a “fake” infertility of their own creation.
 
davidarlette said:
I also must comment that the CCC acknowledges that sex between a husband and wife is unitive. That is, it strengthens the bond of marriage. I don’t think it is good advice to forgo that. In fact Scripture is quite explicit about that.
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:eek: And yet you have no issue with using condoms?
 
This thread is about Artificial Birth Control (ABC) not Natural Family Planning (NFP). Nor is this thread about comparing various methods os spacing births (NFP vs ABC vs Abortion).

If you want to discuss NFP, start another thread.
 
I really think that, bottom line, the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit through the Pope, so, if our pastor does not follow what Rome says, then we need to turn toward Rome and realize that the pastor is not speaking as he should.
 
davidarlette said:
The very name NFP means that it is trying to divorce the unitive and procreative acts by using a kind of legal loophole. The intention is the same as other contraceptive methods. ie to enjoy the unitive but not procreative parts.
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Sex without babies can still be procreative, you just have to understand what the Church means by the term “procreative” (in sources like the CCC and Humanae Vitae). The term refers to “the natural inclination of the conjugal act towards the generation of human life” (well defined in fix’s link, post 92).

That natural inclination is still present in the marital act of a couple where the wife is naturally infertile (ie. pregnancy, menopause, before and after ovulating during her menstrual cycle) therefore, naturally infertile sex can be considered procreative. Contracepted or unnaturally infertile sex can never be procreative (according to the above definition) even if the contraception fails and you end up procreating (reproducing).

So why doesn’t the Church help us understand these terms better? I wish I knew.🤷
 
drpmjhess said:
Most Catholics of my acquaintance don’t get it because they’ve never understood the difference between so-called “artificial” and so-called “natural” contraception. And because most priests they meet never preach against so-called “artificial” contraception.
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The Church teaches the danger of all contraception, natural or artificial. Do you understand the difference between contraception and Natural Family Planning?

On a more personal note, I love the second quote in your signature.🙂
 
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