Can a couple who don't want to have children get married under the grace of God?

[Traditional_Ang]

Why are you naming the angel Gabriel?
I’ve never seen that in any Scripture verse.

Catherina - He’s named later on in the conversation -
And Zachariah said to the angel, “How shall I know this? For I am old man and my wife is advance in years.” And, The angel answered him, “I am GABRIEL, who stand in the presence of God, and I was sent to speak to you and to bring you this good news. And, Behold, you will be silent and unable to speak until the day these things come to pass, because you did not believe my words, which will be fulfilled in their time.”
Luke 1:18-20 RSV-2CE
Gabriel’s name is in the context, and I saw no reason not to include his name and to say who it was that was speaking. I was already making a long post, and didn’t want to make include the entire Scripture when all I wanted was to specify who God’s Messenger was…

I was figuring people would read the whole episode and see that I was trying to avoid unnecessarily lengthening a post when all that was required was specifying the speaker…

In Christ, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Please go back and re-read what I wrote again. Most of what you are saying doesn’t apply. I am only talking about knowledge of infertility prior to marriage in couples of typical child-bearing age.

The basis for expressing my difficulty with the Church’s position on allowing someone who is fertile to marry someone who is infertile is that it seems to directly oppose the stated requirements of marital sex, that it be procreative and unitive, when it’s already known beforehand that intercourse will not be open to procreation (short of a miracle from God). It’s not that I oppose infertile people marrying. It’s that I have yet to see an explanation for allowing it that makes sense in view of the Church’s teaching about marital sex. I’m searching for an explanation that shows the marital sex requirement is consistent.

Momor:

Thanks for the assumption that I didn’t read what you said. I read it twice. I would hope you’d show the next person whose answer you don’t like a little more charity.

I’m sorry you didn’t like my answer. I’m a layman and not a theologian. I tried my best to think it through. All I know is that Openness to Procreation and Uniting have to go together, no matter our physical condition - Language tends to be sequential - God isn’t.

If we’re open to giving Life, the Holy Spirit comes into the Middle of the Act through both of the Partners, making it Holy unto God and Grace-Giving. I’m sure God knows the disposition of our hearts better than we do, so your question becomes not one of the body, but one of the heart. It really is a, “What if?”

Christianity is a religion built on miracles - We assume the miraculous and live with it all the time. That’s why your, “Don’t assume a miracle.” is to some extent, unfair.

As God looks at the heart, and not the body, His Question is different from yours, as is his follow up, which I’m afraid we fail miserably.

I believe that Question is (From Kelly Clinger)
What do we do AFTER Moms Choose Life?
Your Brother in Christ,
Michael

 

[dans0622]

… I am only talking about knowledge of infertility prior to marriage in couples of typical child-bearing age.

The basis for expressing my difficulty with the Church’s position on allowing someone who is fertile to marry someone who is infertile is that it seems to directly oppose the stated requirements of marital sex, that it be procreative and unitive, when it’s already known beforehand that intercourse will not be open to procreation (short of a miracle from God). It’s not that I oppose infertile people marrying. It’s that I have yet to see an explanation for allowing it that makes sense in view of the Church’s teaching about marital sex. I’m searching for an explanation that shows the marital sex requirement is consistent.

Hello momor,

I don’t know if this will help or is something you already have taken into consideration, but… Procreation is an “end” of marriage. Whether or not that “end” is achieved is not an issue when it comes to the validity of marriage. There is a difference between procreation and procreativity. The marital act is not required to result in procreation but it must be procreative: it has to be an act that is, in itself, apt for the generation of offspring. In other words, if a couple can consummate the marriage, that action is, per se, procreative. Even if the wife was without ovaries, the marital act is still procreative even if the couple knows their will be no procreation. Yet, every couple must have proper intentions regarding the procreative aspect of married life, even if it is “certain” that their will never be procreation.

That leads to a second point: consent makes marriage. So, if a person were to choose to marry someone who is known to be infertile/sterile, that doesn’t mean his/her intention regarding children can be anything he/she wants it to be. Every couple, in getting married, must have proper intentions regarding the “good of offspring” and their procreativity must be a part of the mutual self-gift that is marriage. There are no exceptions.

Thanks for your time.
Dan

 

[catharina]

Catherina - He’s named later on in the conversation -
And Zachariah said to the angel, “How shall I know this? For I am old man and my wife is advance in years.” And, The angel answered him, "I am GABRIEL, who stand in the presence of God, and I was sent to speak to you and to bring you this good news. And, Behold, you will be silent and unable to speak until the day these things come to pass, because you did not believe my words, which will be fulfilled in their time."
Luke 1:18-20 RSV-2CE
Gabriel’s name is in the context, and I saw no reason not to include his name and to say who it was that was speaking. I was already making a long post, and didn’t want to make include the entire Scripture when all I wanted was to specify who God’s Messenger was…

I was figuring people would read the whole episode and see that I was trying to avoid unnecessarily lengthening a post when all that was required was specifying the speaker…

In Christ, Michael

Thanks.
Must have had a senior moment.
Gabriel had a very busy year.

PS - your post, #75, is simple and beautiful. Thanks again.

 

[momor]

Hello momor,

I don’t know if this will help or is something you already have taken into consideration, but… Procreation is an “end” of marriage. Whether or not that “end” is achieved is not an issue when it comes to the validity of marriage. There is a difference between procreation and procreativity. The marital act is not required to result in procreation but it must be procreative: it has to be an act that is, in itself, apt for the generation of offspring. In other words, if a couple can consummate the marriage, that action is, per se, procreative. Even if the wife was without ovaries, the marital act is still procreative even if the couple knows their will be no procreation. Yet, every couple must have proper intentions regarding the procreative aspect of married life, even if it is “certain” that their will never be procreation.

That leads to a second point: consent makes marriage. So, if a person were to choose to marry someone who is known to be infertile/sterile, that doesn’t mean his/her intention regarding children can be anything he/she wants it to be. Every couple, in getting married, must have proper intentions regarding the “good of offspring” and their procreativity must be a part of the mutual self-gift that is marriage. There are no exceptions.

Thanks for your time.
Dan

Thank you for your answer. It directly addressed my points and it is probably the best explanation I’ve heard. I’ve also heard it described as giving all you have to give to your spouse, regardless of what you have to give.

I admit I still struggle with the rationale, as openness to procreation (not just procreativity) seems to be an imperative for fertile couples given that NFP cannot be used, and certainly not continued indefinitely, without very grave reasons. Given that, it just seems counter to teaching to allow a fertile (or assumed to be fertile) person to knowingly and intentionally (prior knowledge) put aside, even waste, their God given procreativity simply because they fall in love with someone who happens to be infertile.

There are so many other proscriptions to marriage despite being in love with someone that it’s hard to inderstand love being allowed priority over marital procreation. Especially since love as a reason for marriage is a fairly new Western idea. It hasn’t been that long since people of child bearing age would never have knowingly married someone who was known to be infertile, except perhaps for money and we know the Church would frown on that as a basis for marriage. In many cultures that attitude against infertility and marriage for love alone exists still today.

Although I struggle, I am trying to understand and thank you for your help.

 

[samiam1611]

I like that response too. it is down to earth. the bible quotes (or whatever quotes) rarely give me an answer. they’re too abstract or fictional sounding to me. (like, ok someone said God didn’t talk to the abraham and sarah and whatnot , He just inspired them but to me, an angel coming to them is on the same level of questionable sanity. also, if God didn’t talk to people, how come it’s like “God said be fruitful and multiply?” Someone thinks God talked to them. If you contend that no, it really was inspiration every single time someone “heard” from God, then “said” was a poor choice of word when it was translated to English. Heard is not so great either. Either God spoke to them, which is something I have trouble believing (not denying, just skeptical of) or else someone decided to make up some rules for the world to follow and told people God inspired them to say it so that people would believe them.

 

[samiam1611]

and the distinction between procreation and procreativity is on point!

 

[Rence]

I have a hard time with the concept that one who says: I love you, I want to be with you, I want to make your best days better and your worse days go away. I want to grow old with you, take care of you, etc. being seen as unworthy somehow of God’s grace, love, understanding, blessing, whatever. I can’t picture anyway in which that makes sense.

I have a hard time with that too Erodelphian. Not everyone is up to having many kids – or any. And I think there’s a difference between being “open to new life” and being required to have kids from the getgo. If someone is practicing NFP, and they don’t want to have children, but are still open to having children, I think they should still be allowed to be married. And they are being married actually, it’s just “not supposed to be that way”.

Thankfully, the Church doesn’t put a required number of children one has to have. There is no rule stating the number of kids you have to have. There is no rule saying you can’t only have one or two. And the Church is very lenient about what consitutes “grave reasons” to use NFP, and leaves it up to the couple to determine what is best for their family. And that’s the truth of it. But, despite what the Church teaches about kids being the end of marriage, I can understand people who want to get married for the above reasons you described and I think there’s nothing wrong with it. But those are the Church’s teachings, so be it, I can accept them as Church teachings. But while I feel really really sorry for the posts that start out with “OMG, I am pregnant with my 4th (7th, 9th, whatever number) child, my youngest is 4 months old, and I’m losing my mind, what do I do, I’m exhausted, we’re broke, I’m scared to death to have my husband touch me again after this one…” … it doesn’t affect me … because that will never be me. I sure have to had it to those who appear to have it completely together with many children though. It’s not that I don’t like big families, I think they’re awesome. I just hate the way people are pressured into having big families by other Catholics because not everyone can do it. It would just be healthier if Catholics knew that this is not what the Church requires.

I struggle too with the Church’s position but in a different way and it’s two opposite sides of the same moral coin. Two known infertile people marrying is not a problem but I don’t understand why the Church allows a person who is assumed to be fertile to marry a person who is known to be infertile. The fertile person is allowed to choose that they will have 100% unitive love and eliminate the procreative aspect. Some may even do so intentionally as a means to marry but not have children they don’t want.

Yeah, I don’t understand that teaching either. You’re right, you can do it intentionally and be home free and within the rules of the Church. But heaven forbid someone just be honest and say… “well, yeah I’m open to life, but I’m not going to actively try to have kids. Yes, NFP is the way we’re doing it, but we really don’t want kids”. I don’t see the difference anyway. The latter is more likely to have children than the former.

But I say, go ahead and get married if you don’t want children as long as you’re open to life, because no matter what you do, you can’t dupe God. Whether it’s ABCs, condoms or NFP, if God wants you to get pregnant you will, and if you’re open to life, you’ll have what God gives you. So I can understand why many priests marry people anyway who don’t want kids, as long as they folllow the “open to life” rule.

 

[Rence]

I disagree with the majority…as usual.

You may very well be called to a vocation to marriage but not a vocation to parenthood.

Haaay, I agree with you

 

[Rence]

What about people with illness/disability who want to marry but can’t become parents? Not through infertility but for health reasons. And I don’t mean parenthood is difficult I mean it’s not possible. I’m in that situation and judging from some of what I’ve seen on CAF, I get the impression that ill/disabled people who want to marry need to convert to another faith to do so. Is that always true and can anyone cite official documents rather than personal opinion?

I know about the unitive/procreative concept but I’m looking for something official that says that all Catholic marriages need to produce at least one child if the couple is biologically capable of it. No exceptions for illness or disability. You are alone for life or you convert to another faith or no faith in order to marry.

When we got married 15 years ago I hoped to be able to have kids so that’s what we said but time showed it should not happen.

There is nothing official from the Church that says you absolutely must have a certain amount of kids. What the Church says is that in order to be married, you must be able to complete the marital embrace and you must be “open to life” and if you use NFP it has to be for a good reason.

 

[samiam1611]

what if the couple were like, ok we won’t use ABC etc and if she gets pregnant, she won’t have an abortion, but if she gets pregnant, we’re gonna be really really pissed. we’re going to pray for a miscarriage. if a miscarriage doesn’t happen, we’re going to give that baby up for adoption the minute it’s out of the womb.

 

[Rence]

what if the couple were like, ok we won’t use ABC etc and if she gets pregnant, she won’t have an abortion, but if she gets pregnant, we’re gonna be really really pissed. we’re going to pray for a miscarriage. if a miscarriage doesn’t happen, we’re going to give that baby up for adoption the minute it’s out of the womb.

I think they would change their mind as the pregnancy progressed. But that’s just me.

However, if that’s how they truly think, I truly think it would be in the best interest of that child to be put up for adoption and given to a couple who will love, care and raise it. And then the couple can go back home, not use ABC, and be open to life again. And then they can start from the beginning and give up #2 for adoption as well.

Yes, I think they would still be within the teachings of the Church because if they truly feel as you described above, there is something wrong with the picture that would prevent them from acting any different. In other words, I don’t think God punishes people for being ill. And I think such a couple would be too ill, and therefore too incompetent, to raise children. Just MOHO…

 

[The_Old_Medic]

Climaxing by a female has nothing to do with procreation.

If the male does not satisfy his wife, he is selfish. But this issue has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

Any couple that marries, with a hidden desire to never have children, not only is not validly married, but they have committed a very grave mortal sin by going through with a sham marriage.

If you are a Roman Catholic, you MUST be open to the possibility of children, or you simply can not validly marry. End of story!

 

[samiam1611]

did we ever come to a conclusion on how come it’s okay for a couple where one or both of the people are knowingly infertile to get married? as long as they are open to life blah blah blah

If I know I don’t want to have [my own] children, is it okay to purposely go out of my way to find an infertile man to love and marry? i’m gathering that my desire to not have children (note I didn’t say lack of desire to have children) means I could not enter into a valid Catholic marriage, no matter my reasons or circumstances.

 

[Maureen1125]

Samiam - Bottom line is it is your life and you can live it any way you want to. If you want to get married in a church - Go For It!!! Don’t allow other people to dictate to you the way you live your life.

And careful…apparently disagreeing public on a public debate forum will get you sent to “time out”

 

[Petergee]

did we ever come to a conclusion on how come it’s okay for a couple where one or both of the people are knowingly infertile to get married? as long as they are open to life blah blah blah

If I know I don’t want to have [my own] children, is it okay to purposely go out of my way to find an infertile man to love and marry? i’m gathering that my desire to not have children (note I didn’t say lack of desire to have children) means I could not enter into a valid Catholic marriage, no matter my reasons or circumstances.

IMO if you wanted to pursue that strange course of action, the Church would not stand in your way, and you could enter a valid Catholic marriage, provided you remained open to children. That is, you aren’t intending to do anything to deliberately prevent the conception of children, and for example if your husband became unexpectedly cured, you would accept and bring up any children that you conceived. And e.g. if your husband later decided to get treatment to cure his infertility, you wouldn’t try to stop him.

 

[Petergee]

Samiam - Bottom line is it is your life and you can live it any way you want to.

Yes that applies to all of us.

If you want to get married in a church - Go For It!!! Don’t allow other people to dictate to you the way you live your life.

If your fundamental principle in life is that you don’t want anybody, including Christ, His Church, and other legitimate authorities to tell you what to do, the Catholic Church is certainly not the place to join or remain in.

And careful…apparently disagreeing public on a public debate forum will get you sent to “time out”

I do it all the time here and I’ve never been given time out.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

what if the couple were like, ok we won’t use ABC etc and if she gets pregnant, she won’t have an abortion, but if she gets pregnant, we’re gonna be really really pissed. we’re going to pray for a miscarriage. if a miscarriage doesn’t happen, we’re going to give that baby up for adoption the minute it’s out of the womb.

You know, the more you post in this thread, the more I think you need some serious prayer. What a horrible attitude to have about God’s greatest blessing! What if your own mother and father had felt that way about YOU??? Ever think it those terms?? Getting pregnant with our first son is what brought me back to the Church! I prayed for his safety, after having been away from the Church for over 20 years, and God answered my prayers and let me know that He had never left my side, not once in all that time. I went into labor one person and came out the other side a different person. I thank God for both my 2 blessings every day, no matter what they do, say, or become. It is a HUGE miracle that God left the procreation of His kingdom to such weak vessels! What an amazing responsibility!

Of course I have no idea what sort of family background you really have had. You posted that it was great. Hmmmm…The only people I know who have this much anger and nastiness toward children have had very dysfunctional childhoods, most of them have been physically and/or sexually abused.

It’s one thing to be indifferent to children or somewhat concerned that you are not adequate to raising them. But to espouse this kind of bitterness? Sad. Unless you are taking this extreme position merely to provoke a strong response on this forum. You are also likely young and haven’t met the person you are meant to marry. Once you do, you may well change your mind about having children.

I know you said you have medical conditions that you might pass on to your children. No child is perfect but we can’t create perfect children - that is called eugenics. Both my sons need eyesight correction. One has asthma, one has celiac disease (can’t eat wheat, barley, rye). One has weird double-jointed elbows (!). One has a large gap between his great toe and the next one down, which makes his feet look weird. I could go on for an hour about this stuff. Nevertheless, they are both wonderful miracles. And I am not sorry we helped God bring them into being!

I am going to say my next rosary with you as the intention. I pray that our Mother Mary takes hold of your heart, dear one. And may you learn what a blessing life really is.

 

[BlueSapphire]

ok i see what you’re saying now. the kingdom of heaven thing seemed out of place but i get it now.
So God did not make me the way I am - totally with you on that. Didn’t God make me though? Why would He make someone in His image but mess up that part - giving me the option to disagree with His ways?

God made you the way you are because He loves you and trusts you to do the right thing.

I myself have been married for almost 30 years, never having been able to consceive. I even thought of trying IVF until I found that it was against Church teaching, so I opted to adopt. We have a beautiful son who is almost 23 years old, and he has been and continues to be a joy to us. You don’t know what you’re missing until you try it!

 

[samiam1611]

in response to several of the most recent posts:
thanks for your concern on me getting blocked hehe. i was/am concerned about the things i’m saying being unpopular. i try to keep it polite and not like anti-Catholic. no one has accused me of being way out of line (attitude towards Catholicism-wise) so i guess i’m doing an okay job of that, and as i think i mentioned, if anyone feels offended by what i say, just let me know, it’s not my intention and just by pointing it out to me it is a learning experience for me. i’m not Catholic if you haven’t figured that out yet, I just am interested in educating myself on the Catholic way of things on some particular subjects. (I am surrounded by Catholicism at my work and ignored it since I started working there several years ago until about 6 months ago.)
About the hating kids thing, I should stress that a lot of my questions/scenarios are purely hypothetical (i agree that would be a very “strange course of action”). For instance, my boyfriend and I are nowhere near getting engaged–>married. he barely even says i love you even though it’s been over 3 years! So he’s probably not the one I’m going to marry. also I am kind of exaggerating my dislike (“anger, hatred”) of kids. It’s for the sake of discussion. so i’m not saying prayer is NOT what i need (i would never turn down someone praying for me!), i just don’t want you to be toooo concerned like omg this girl is so messed up, why isn’t God there for her right now?!
My reaction to "What if your own mother and father had felt that way about YOU??? Ever think [of] it [in] those terms?? " is I’m reminded of this joke I heard once: “learn from your parents’ mistake: use birth control.” Not a very Catholic oriented joke! but still made me chuckle when I first heard it.