Can a couple who don't want to have children get married under the grace of God?

[benedictus2]

A blessing from God does not change in its nature according to our individually subjective reactions. Our small minds, influenced by fallen human nature, often prevent us from seeing the full goodness of God’s gifts. We don’t know what is best for us; we can’t see the big picture; we cannot see in this life the infinite preciousness of a single human soul so loved by God that He would sacrifice Himself in its place.

I can’t imagine living life thinking that only some people are blessings. I’m sure you are not saying that a person’s worth is based on how happy he makes his parents when he arrives in the world… And if you agree with me there, it might be helpful to remember that we do not exist merely for ourselves. We are called to give ourselves fully to God and others in self-sacrificial love, no matter how difficult or painful the situation may be. This life is merely a journey, by which we strive toward Heaven through love and sacrifice. Yes, even if a woman loses her earthly life by bearing forth a precious new person, she has gained such a blessing—the opportunity to share in God’s creation of an infinitely loved soul. And she will not regret this as she goes into the arms of her infinitely wise and loving God.

Excellent post! :clapping::clapping::clapping:

 

[benedictus2]

Certainly not. I am not talking about a person’s worth at all. I am just saying that if someone is not open to life, their child is not viewed as a blessing.

Well put. The parents are not perceiving the blessing even though it is a blessing. Therefore the problem is with the parents perception not with the child.

That being said, it can still turn into a blessing.

Wrong. It could not “turn” into a blessing, because it already is a blessing. It can happen that the parents will grow enough spiritually and emotionally that they will see the child exactly for what it is - a blessing.

Or it could be born a blessing and turn into not being a blessing.

Wrong again. You had it right with your first statement but it went downhill from there.

It was always a blessing But it may be that perception may change. But its nature as a blessing does not change.

But that is using the definition of blessing as something that results in happiness and wellbeing. If you are going to use the definition of blessing as “God made it” then sure, everyone is a blessing.

And that is the only true definition of blessing. Blessing by its very nature religious in origin and always understood as coming from God.

Seems like a dumb definition though.

No not a dumb definition just a failure to understand your part.

Loses its connotation as a positive thing when you say all children are blessings.

No it doesn’t. Children - life - is always a positive thing. So therefore it is always a blessing. And it is not dependent on qualify of life either. Life is intrinsically good.

Was Hitler a blessing?

Yes. He wasn’t always the fascist murdering dictator that he was. I could say the same thing about you you know. Maybe some people would think you are anything but a blessing. So where does you argument leave you then?

 

[benedictus2]

There was absolutely no good that came from my parents staying together as long as they did. If anything it made the divorce that much worse.

No, you don’t know that because you are not God. Only God knows what good came out of that marriage.

I donlt think marriages should break apart just because things got hard or a little unhappy. However things in my parents marriage went far beyond being unhappy. I mean did any of your parents hate each other with every fiber of their being cause that is how my mom came to feel about my dad Did either of your parents become angry depressed alcholics who tried to drowned their pain in booze?

And how is divorce supposed to remedy that?

I recommend separation (not divorce) if the woman (or maybe even the man) is being physically abused.

However, what is needed in most instance is not divorce but a counseling and a lot of prayer. God never abandons us but we will not know that unless we keep faith with Him. Unfortunately, we often lose faith at precisely the moment when we should cling to him even more tightly. And I think this is because of faulty theology - when we are taught that those who love God will have an easy life…

Did any of your parents lose their faith in God?

My mother never did. As I said before, the harder it became the more she clung to God and that is how her faith grew. My father was so so. But I think because of my mother’s faith, towards the last few years of his life he changed too. He started going to daily mass. Prayer is powerful. Very powerful.

Most of the time though we ask for the wrong thing. Instead of asking God to change someone, we should always ask God to change us. We must always remember that as GK Chesterton said; what is wrong with the world is us, so the first thing we should ask God is to change us, to change our selves.

Also if a husband and wife are miserable in their marriage think about what image of marriage that gives to their kids especially if the kids are not exposed to a lot of good healthy examples of marriage.

That is pure hogwash. As I have said before, my parents marriage were far from perfect. I think my mother could have been called miserable in it and probably my father too but because of my mother’s great faith, they were able to see it through. I used to think like you (probably because of the influence of some liberal psychology) but as I have matured I came to realize more and more how precious was the fact that they remained together inspite of everything. This was because my mother was not focused on herself. She always thought of her family first. Because she raised us in the faith, we also came to value the sacrifices she made.

Once a husband/wife takes the focus off themselves and truly implored God for help, help will be there. But they must be ready to accept the form of help that wants to give them. Unfortunately most people want their way, not God’s way.

A lady I know told me of a 10 year old boy she was teaching, who told her he wanted to kill himself (making a motion of slicing his wrist with a knife) because his parents have just divorced.

They could grow up thinking a disfunctional relationship is the norm!

We never did. The only time they will think that is if they were abused themselves. But that is another story. Besides, just take yourself for example. Would you say you benefited from your parents divorce considering that here you are now refusing to have children?

 

[bethanysamuel]

For a minute i thought i might have found a compassionate, Christian website that would give answers not condemnations. maybe i should stay away from all these websites. I feel sorry for a lot of you.

 

[benedictus2]

I guess my point is is that in some marriages it is best to get a divorce and staying together for the kids is not always a good idea my parents show that pretty clearly.

A separation yes, but not a divorce.

Yes kids can changed people for the better if they are open to it if they are not selfabsorbed.

So what needs to be cured is the self-absorption. And part of combating that self-absorption is by exposing it in all its ugliness and heinousness rather than finding excuses and justifications for its continuance.

And for Christians, prayer always is the key. Prayer – and lots of it.

But I guess my point was that the author herself seemed to be implying that all parents are just great people and blah blah blah.

Hardly. She didn’t imply that at all. But what she was saying is that there is a big avenue for grace, for spiritual and emotional growth when we allow the hand of God to move and bring forth new life.

The issue with contraception is the same issue as with every sin: the hegemony of the self, the ego. It is always a refusal to let God be God. And that is why we are in so much muck at the moment because we have turned things upside down by making gods of ourselves. The first remedy is to realize we are only creatures and so let God be God.

If she had said children can change people for the better and left it at that I would not have such a problem with what she said.

There was nothing wrong with the other bit she said as well. I think you misunderstood it.

My parents marriage was anything but sacred more like an abomination! Trust me my parents marriage went far beyond unhappy and poor marriages give poor examples to any kids involved of what marriage is suppose to be!

And that is the problem as well. They probably got married when they shouldn’t have because if it didn’t work out, it is easy to get unhooked anyway.

Jane Smith said that to: how people just slide into marriage without even really thinking about it.

Divorce makes contracting a bad marriage easy because there is always a way out anyway.

Yes I get that her point is that it made walking away easy I was just annoyed that she seemed to conviently ignore the fact that a woman might have good reasons for walking away and taking those options away from her is not a good thing.

Separation yes, divorce no.

Now adays many people donlt have the option to only have one parent working. Not every man has a job good enough to provide.

Have you ever thought that if there were less women in the work place there might be more jobs for the men?

Turning ones married life over to God wonlt keep your husband from cheating or dying or getting laid off or being abusive either.

No but God will always have the solution for you. Always. You think the God who created the universe and rose from the dead is incapable of handling your piddly little problem?

Also nothing in the bible indicates that a woman should not work! Actually wasn;t that proverbs woman also a working woman!?

No one said that a woman should not work. What do you think looking after a house and looking after kids are – a holiday?

And while it is good for a woman to be able to use her talents outside of the home environment, the greatest contribution she can give society is by raising Godly children. And that kind of child rearing you cannot leave to the day care centre.

'Also you seem to think I am an atheist I am not an atheist.

You go by the label non-denominational but the whole foundation of all your arguments have so far been materialistic and atheistic. That’s what I have been taking the pains to show you. You profess to be something else but at the very core of your being - the tenets are atheistic.

Well my moms “tests” only made her lose her faith.

There was nothing wrong with the tests. I would guess that it was due to a weak faith in the first place and most likely a lack of prayer and deficient faith instruction.

It is now up to you, now that you’ve heard this to pray for her and to pray that her faith increase. If you are truly Christian and believe in the Lord who rose from the dead, it is encumbent upon you to witness to that faith to her.

You can prove to be the blessing that God has sent her to bring her back to Him. But you will need to pray and you will need to turn your life over to the Lord to do that. God is never outdone in generosity. When we make the first attempt to return, He has already ran most of the way to meet us.

 

[benedictus2]

For a minute i thought i might have found a compassionate, Christian website that would give answers not condemnations. maybe i should stay away from all these websites. I feel sorry for a lot of you.

You are not after compassion. You want someone to validate your disordered passions.

You need to wake up and realize the muck you are in. You already know what is right, deep in your heart so anymore discussion is superfluous.

You know what is right so stop this nonsense. Go to confession preferably to an old holy priest.

 

[kristleful]

For a minute i thought i might have found a compassionate, Christian website that would give answers not condemnations. maybe i should stay away from all these websites. I feel sorry for a lot of you.

Bethany, I am sorry you feel condemned. I think that Benedictus is well-intentioned, and he calls it how he sees it, in his attempt to show people the truth.

You did a very good, mature thing when you split with your partner because you were living in sin. Since you were able to make such a good choice out of love for God, I am sure you will realize that your feelings for this priest are merely feelings, and you must make an act of your will to not put any more thought into them. If being around this priest or attending his Masses causes you to dwell on or grow in these feelings, you must go to a different parish or different Masses. Sometimes when our feelings becoming caught up in something, we think that the answers are difficult and complicated. In reality, this is a problem with a very simple solution.

I hope this helps, and I don’t want to derail this thread. I just wanted to give you a piece of advice in a way you might understand. Please don’t feel that no one has compassion for you. We all struggle and sin.

 

[Calliso]

Then you disagree with God BIG TIME. Your viewpoint is not God’s viewpoint.

Children can be trials. When they are small, the constant care, the late nights, the sickness and all the things that go with nurturing life will demand much from the parents especially the mother.
But even when they are grown, one does not stop being a parent. One’s life remains tied to their sorrows and their joys. One continues to suffer with them and for them. But it is precisely in that self-giving that our soul grows, that God transforms us into the image of His Son.

I can understand your viewpoint considering that you are non-denominational. Most people in this group prefer to think of the gospel as a gospel of prosperity. They fail to see that Easter cannot be had without Good Friday.

Actually, your opinion does matter to God. He wants your flourishing. He wants your cooperation with His will.

But instead of being intransingent, we can say to Him in total humility something like: “Lord, this wonderful creature that you created in your Image, I do not see as a blessing. I see them as a burden. I see them as an encumberance that will limit my happiness. And yet I see in your Holy Word, how You constantly say that they are your blessings. Help me to see your creation with your eyes that I may order my life according to Your Will”

Perhaps the one thing that God needs to change in you is that viewpoint. That is probably the one thing that really needs to be healed in your heart. Many graces may be tied to this changing of your world view.
Which again is exactly the opposite of God’s. So how do you reconcile this with your belief in God’s Word.
No. That is something you soooooo do not know.

That you are even in this forum and presumably are seeking some light means that in some way you are trying to tune your mind and heart to truth. And what children need more than anything - after their basic needs have been met - is to be constantly directed towards God.

You need to stop thinking as an atheist and start truly believing the Gospel. But for this change you need to pray. Prayer is the most powerful tool for change.

Ask God to create a new heart and a new mind in you. One that sees His creation as He sees them. You were a child once and He loved you to death in the same way He loved everyone to death.

Unless you see creation with God’s eyes, you will see them with the EvilOne’s eyes. There is no middle ground.

A new translation of St Ignatius’ Spiritual Exercises was titled “Choosing Christ in the World”.

Our goal is always to do that: to choose Christ because there is no midway. Not to choose Christ is to chose the prince of this world.

Oh I realize that my viewpoint is not Gods viewpoint. I can see how having kids could make one grow as a person and become better.

True you are right I cannot say for sure if having a child would absolutely be a negative experience for either the child or me. I will take your advice and pray.

 

[Calliso]

I think the increased desire during ovulation is the result of evolution (or intelligent design if that’s your thing.) Seems pretty intelligent to me - make the female more motivated to find a mate during her fertile times, propagating the species.

I agree that that line alone does not suggest that willingness to have children be a requirement to marriage.

Since you’re not Catholic, I say use whatever the heck contraception you feel like using and have sex. I still think it’s better to be unitive and not procreative than neither.

I do agree that is is better to be unitive and no procreative rather then neither in my marriage. My problem is finding a contraception/form of birth control that works for both me and my husband. The pill did not work well oh I never got pregnant on it…but a certain side affect I experienced from it made it really not worth it. We have tried condoms but while those are fine with me my husband cannot stand them. My husband refuses to get vascectomy though not because of religious beliefs or because he wants kids. I am too scared to go to the doctor and get that essure procedure or the mirena thing whatever it is called or my tubes tied. I admit I donlt have a high pain tolerance when it comes to certain things. I mean certain things I do certain things I donlt. But the thought of someone sticking some device or metal thingy up into my tubes or my uterus makes me shudder I admit. And I hear that the mirena device hurts like no other thing to get put in. Not to mention there is the risk I have heard of it puncturing your uterus. I have heard the essure procedure isn;t near as bad but I read a description of it and yeah just the description of it made me shudder though probably what really scared me is the dye test you apparently have to take a few monthes later to make sure the procedure actually worked! I have read descriptions of people who literally screamed in pain. Not so sure if sex is worth all that! Long story short the more I think about it the more i think my only options really are to either remain abstinent until menopause. Use NFP or that either me or my husband get sterilized.

 

[Calliso]

And in that one statement you summarized your view point. You want to have sex for its pleasure without the possibility of a child.

As I have mentioned before, its all about me, me, me.
This just validates the article even more.

Well that and I want to feel closer to my husband too!

 

[samiam1611]

Well that and I want to feel closer to my husband too!

Did you use The pill, with estrogen and progestin? If that had undesirable side effects, maybe the mini-pill would not have that side effect. Mirena has the same hormone as the mini-pill. Mirena doesn’t hurt any worse than a PAP smear, for me anyway. The pain was completely gone once the dr was out of me (less than 2 minutes I’d say.) I went to work like 2 hours later. There’s also Nuvaring and Paragard. My sister has Paragard. That one lasts for 10 to 12 years and is hormone-free. There are also spermicides which I have no experience with. You could try spermicide + withdrawal + NFP. (the spermicide being back up if he fails to withdraw in time.) Centchroman (ormeloxifene) is a birth control I was interested for awhile, it is non-hormonal and taken once a week but it is not FDA approved so you probably don’t want that. Still, there are several lesser known options you may want to look in to. Really though you should not be scared of the pain of Mirena. I can think of numerous things that hurt more. 2 minutes of discomfort for 5 years of worry-free sex? Definitely worth it. Plus it makes your period so light. Paragard did not appeal to me bc it can make your periods heavier (although that is not the case with my sister) but if hormones don’t agree with your body, Paragard might be right for you.

 

[samiam1611]

Well put. The parents are not perceiving the blessing even though it is a blessing. Therefore the problem is with the parents perception not with the child.
Wrong. It could not “turn” into a blessing, because it already is a blessing. It can happen that the parents will grow enough spiritually and emotionally that they will see the child exactly for what it is - a blessing.
Wrong again. You had it right with your first statement but it went downhill from there.
It was always a blessing But it may be that perception may change. But its nature as a blessing does not change.
And that is the only true definition of blessing. Blessing by its very nature religious in origin and always understood as coming from God.
Children - life - is always a positive thing. So therefore it is always a blessing. And it is not dependent on qualify of life either. Life is intrinsically good.

Ok, here’s a rewrite:
If someone is not open to life, their child is not viewed as a blessing. That being said, it can still turn into being viewed as a blessing. Or it could be viewed as a blessing when it was born and turn into not being viewed as a blessing.

Better?

For a minute there, I was being more argumentative than I meant to be - lost sight of my goal, which was to understand your (y’all’s) viewpoint. I don’t have to agree - and I don’t, hehe - but you have shown me “where you’re coming from” as the saying goes. If you view all children as a blessing, then it makes much more sense that you would be against contraception.

 

[catharina]

For a minute i thought i might have found a compassionate, Christian website that would give answers not condemnations. maybe i should stay away from all these websites. I feel sorry for a lot of you.

Bethany, you’ve been living your life in a reckless, haphazard manner.
Who can comment about your life in any positive way?

 

[benedictus2]

Ok, here’s a rewrite:
If someone is not open to life, their child is not viewed as a blessing. That being said, it can still turn into being viewed as a blessing. Or it could be viewed as a blessing when it was born and turn into not being viewed as a blessing.

Better?

For a minute there, I was being more argumentative than I meant to be - lost sight of my goal, which was to understand your (y’all’s) viewpoint. I don’t have to agree - and I don’t, hehe - but you have shown me “where you’re coming from” as the saying goes. If you view all children as a blessing, then it makes much more sense that you would be against contraception.

If you really want to understand our viewpoint, then you must understand Christianity. It will be extremely difficult for you understand our viewpoint without that.

Here’s why.

If I see the human being as just some by product of cells and chemical reactions that just happened to form this walking, talking, thinking mass of cells, then I can say like Darwin: well it is a case of survival of the fittest. Who has might triumphs. In this case, the parents have might so triumphs over this little blob of cells.

But… if I I see myself as just another creature in the same way that the life that comes from union with my husband/wife is also just another creature of the same loving God who loves us into existence, then that changes the discussion completely.

So the first question you really need to address is not contraception but theism and from then on Christianity.

Notice, I did not say Christianity straight away because an atheist (if you are an atheist) has to understand - believe - first that there is a God and I mean here a generic God i.e. Creator from whom this universe and everything in it - living and non-living - came from.

Once you can come to understand that, then the second question is what sort of God? A God who creates but is otherwise totally un-involved in His creation? That would be Deism.

But is God like that? As you keep inquiring then more questions come up and I tell you, the only faith that can answer those questions convincingly and rationally is the Christian faith - more specifically the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church’s teaching developed from the Judeo-Christian tradition.

Once you realize that the Christian faith is the real deal, then continued quest for truth will lead you to the Church. And only then will you understand why the Church teaches what she teaches.

**So I issue you an invitation to study. **

The issue of contraception is only a part of a whole body of teaching that makes for one harmonious theology that has a loving God at its very centre.

 

[benedictus2]

For a minute i thought i might have found a compassionate, Christian website that would give answers not condemnations. maybe i should stay away from all these websites. I feel sorry for a lot of you.

And here is another comment.

Fr Barthelemy in commenting about the fall of Adam and Eve puts it down to the fact that Eve entertained the devil. She actually engaged with him inspite of the fact that God had already given a very specific command, so from the beginning the case was closed. Finito. No discussion required. But still she entertains him.

That is what you are doing.

You know deep in your heart that what you are doing is wrong. No one needs to tell you that. YOU already know that. But still here you are wanting to discuss the matter.

Your post was not even a cry for help and advice to help you change. I have seen others post of their battles against sin and their tone is very different to yours. They are sincerely asking for help, for prayers to help them steer disastrous paths.

So what are you trying to achieve by posting in this forum?

Enlightenment? But you know. You already know it is wrong.

So what else? Perhaps you are hoping that someone will tell you that what you are doing is okay so that your conscience (which must have been going on overdrive to re-direct you to the right path ) can be quieted for a while at least.

As I said before, what you need is to find a old holy priest as your confessor.

Barring that, just go to confession and spend much time in prayer. We have a loving God full of tenderness for us if we will only turn back and repent. But to be reconciled to Him you need to turn to Him and acknowledge your sins. We are all sinners. Trying to find rationalization and justifcations for our sins will only take us farther from Him.

Your profile says you are Catholic. Spend time before the Blessed Sacrament and pray. Pray much. You don’t have to say much. All you need is to just be before our God of Mercy.

But you really need a good director because the devil is very cunning and he knows how to manipulate your thoughts. That is why it is very important that you go to confession and go regularly to Mass so that you can be armed with God’s grace.

 

[benedictus2]

Oh I realize that my viewpoint is not Gods viewpoint. I can see how having kids could make one grow as a person and become better.

True you are right I cannot say for sure if having a child would absolutely be a negative experience for either the child or me. I will take your advice and pray.

I will pray with you.

I will offer Masses for you, your husband and your mother. You may not believe in the power of the Mass but it is the source and summit of the Christian life, and one will only truly comprehend the graces it brings when we see God face to face.

 

[bethanysamuel]

well i thought this was a discussion forum. i initially did a search to be put in the right topic,but my post was lost, and i saw the co-hab thing come up and could relate to it becoz of the pain of having to sacrifice a relationship for God. i dont know why benedictus finds it necessary to condemn me for having feelings which even though they’re wrong, i didn’t choose them and i have prayed every day for months 4 this to go away and it hasn’t. am i the only woman to have ever fallen in love with a priest and not known what to do? are there any women out there who have had something similar happen?

 

[SwizzleStick]

well i thought this was a discussion forum. i initially did a search to be put in the right topic,but my post was lost, and i saw the co-hab thing come up and could relate to it becoz of the pain of having to sacrifice a relationship for God. i dont know why benedictus finds it necessary to condemn me for having feelings which even though they’re wrong, i didn’t choose them and i have prayed every day for months 4 this to go away and it hasn’t. am i the only woman to have ever fallen in love with a priest and not known what to do? are there any women out there who have had something similar happen?

I did a search of CAF for you. Here are some threads that may interest you.

Infatuated with a priest.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=218893

In love with a priest
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=547643

My relationship with my former parish priest
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=381027

 

[benedictus2]

well i thought this was a discussion forum. i initially did a search to be put in the right topic,but my post was lost, and i saw the co-hab thing come up and could relate to it becoz of the pain of having to sacrifice a relationship for God. i dont know why benedictus finds it necessary to condemn me for having feelings which even though they’re wrong, i didn’t choose them and i have prayed every day for months 4 this to go away and it hasn’t. am i the only woman to have ever fallen in love with a priest and not known what to do? are there any women out there who have had something similar happen?

I am not condemning you for having feelings.

I had a major crush on (probably “in love” with) a married man once and I knew that that is something you do not even entertain. Once you know something is forbidden, that’s it, it’s forbidden.

I was so terribly in love with this man all I could do was to cry to Jesus. I would go to adoration and that is all I would do: cry at the terrible sadness of it all. A nun friend of mine would find me in the chapel crying and she had no idea what I was crying about.

You simply do not go there.

That is why I told you about Fr Barthelemy’s comment on the fall of Adam and Eve. Once you know something is not of God, you just do not entertain it. You take yourself away from all occasions where the temptation would be reinforced. Kristle gave you a very good advice. Do not go into that parish. Find another parish. Cease contact with this priest.

We have to make sure that our priests remain holy. We cannot put additional temptations down their way. It is difficult enough for them without some woman adding to their burden.

The one thing you should have done is to ask for prayers.

You’re a Catholic, you already know it is wrong so what is there to talk about? You could ask for prayers to help you remain strong but you know, deep inside you, the right thing to do.

 

[PRmerger]

well i thought this was a discussion forum. i initially did a search to be put in the right topic,but my post was lost, and i saw the co-hab thing come up and could relate to it becoz of the pain of having to sacrifice a relationship for God. i dont know why benedictus finds it necessary to condemn me for having feelings which even though they’re wrong, i didn’t choose them and i have prayed every day for months 4 this to go away and it hasn’t. am i the only woman to have ever fallen in love with a priest and not known what to do? are there any women out there who have had something similar happen?

How about if you put yourself out of you misery and change parishes?

Done. He’s out of your life. No more issues. No more sadness. No more tears.