Can a couple who don't want to have children get married under the grace of God?

[benedictus2]

Maybe even to the point that he gives him or her up for adoption.

And if so what’s wrong with that? Would being adopted out be better than being dead?

Say then, that an infertile couple adopts the child and everything works out great. The child is a blessing to them, but not to the biological father.

Only because the father is too self-involved. All the arguments that you presented are arguments from a materialistic viewpoint. So therefore invalid based on the point of your thread.
You posited a God at the beginning of the thread so you have to structure your thinking around that premise.

Was Hitler a blessing? He was created by God.

Yes, he was.

This is a concept that will probably whiz past your head but everything we receive is a blessing, is a grace. The bad people, the good people, the trials, rejections, because they are the means by which God transforms us in to the image of His Son. There is nothing more important than that goal of being transformed into the image of His Son.

No, it does not go to reason.

Yes it does go to reason. As Catharine said before some things just don’t go both ways. Children are either blessings or they are not.

What you mean though is some children are “nice” so the fact that they are blessings are more apparent than those that are “not so nice”.

But the children can turn the table around as well and regard parents in the same way. That is why going down your line of thinking just lands you in the pit.

We could be blessings to our parents, bc blessing is subjective.

As I said before, it isn’t. We may perceive it that way but it does not mean that it is.
Take for example rain. To someone indoors it may be perceived as a blessing, but to someone without an umbrella, standing on the pavement waiting for a bus – it may not be perceived as such even though objectively rain is a blessing.

Even if we are not blessings, that doesn’t make us a curse either.

Well, it is an either or.

Curse: A cause of harm or misery.
-something that brings or causes great trouble or harm
-a cause of great suffering and distress
We could’ve been neutral.

Nope. We are not neutral. If a child is not considered a blessing then the child is a “cause of great suffering and distress” as you illustrated in an example above.
You can’t have it both ways as we keep re-iterating.

That’s a ridiculous thing to say. We don’t have to make the same decisions as our parents.

It isn’t a ridiculous thing to day. It follows very much from your premise, you just have not thought it through all that well.

So again I say, if children are not blessings but curses, then YOU are a course. And the fact that you are ABLE to make decisions is because your parent made the decision to allow you to live.

As someone said, those who advocate for contraception and abortion have already been born. It always goes back to being egotistical, self-involved and self-centred.

And while we do not need to make the same decision as our parents in some banal things as career, where to live, etc, etc. one cannot use this lame justification when it comes to a matter of life or death.

Putting words in people’s mouths.

Nope. Extending your logic to its natural conclusion because it seems you have not done that before voicing your opinion.

No one has said anything remotely like that.

It amounts to the same thing. As I said before, you just have not extended your thinking to its logical conclusion.

Some people just don’t want to be parents.

So we are back on this “like/not like” argument again? Arguments for and against contraception have nothing to do with whether we like/not like something. You get into a slippery slope of extremes of subjectivism if you base your argument on that.

That doesn’t mean they think they are curses.

If they don’t think they are curses then they must be blessings. So why this frantic avoidance of a blessing?

As Catharina politely reminded us, having children is one of the functions of marriage. Would you be putting those words in someone’s mouth who was chaste bc they didn’t want kids?

First of all, I greatly doubt anyone remains “chaste” to avoid kids. One who is truly “chaste” will have his/her life directed to God, so for these people, God’s will is paramount. If that is so, then they will regard children in the same way that God regards children. As Jesus said;: “suffer the little children to come to me”.

 

[benedictus2]

I doubt it, and if I am right, I think you are being unfairly harsh, judgemental, and presumptive to say that childless by choice couples think children are curses.

You defined curse, as “something that brings or causes great trouble or harm; -a cause of great suffering and distress”. If couples who are childless, don’t think of children in this way, why do they insist on remaining childless.

I am not being harsh or judgmental. I am just showing you aspects of your moral position which I don’t think you have given a thought to.

If anything, if I had a child, they would be cursed, not be a curse, bc of medical conditions I would pass on.

Again, that would be because your world view is materialistic.
So now I extend that thought as well. If you think that it is not fair to bring a child into the world with your medical condition, then that means that those children with that medical condition ought to be killed.
If a situation is so dire that it is better that someone not come to life at all, then it is therefore so dire, that life of those in this dire situation should be taken away from them.

Yes it certainly could describe a couple using NFP. There is a spectrum of “open to life.” I’ve read on this site multiple times people saying “yes I was mad when I found out I was pregnant but it all turned out okay” and stuff like that.

No they don’t describe NFP couples even though they may be dejected and angry at first, at finding that they are pregnant when they did not expect to be. When a couple decides to use NFP it does not mean that they are always completely in this euphoric disposition to God’s will. Following God is a struggle. But the scenario that you outlined is a caricature which depicts ABCers more that NFPers. Even an NFPer who is upset at finding out she is pregnant still do not fall into that lurid scenario you gave.

If you’re flat broke and you’ve got 6 kids already that are handfuls, if you don’t want to get pregnant again anytime soon (“spacing” them),

And that is true, but it doesn’t mean that there is no grace, no blessing that comes with that struggling that happens when you find out you are pregnant. This is actually a grace in itself as you are called to a greater surrender of your entire being to God.

NFP is a training ground in self-mastery and trust in God. These things do not come with a blink of an eye. The good thing about NFP is involves a total change of way of life and of perspective. There will always be selfishness and desire to have it our way, but NFP if practiced faithfully not only helps space children but allows us to dethrone the self by this constant surrender to God of our sexuality.

if you are a responsible parent then you don’t want to conceive every time you have sex

If you are a responsible parent you will be a responsible parent - one who brings children to life.

, and you may be apprehensive about having sex, especially if any of them were “surprises.”

Again, this is because you are approaching this discussion from the vantage point of total autonomy from God. Of course if you make yourself god, you can think in such a way.

But I go back to your OP where you included God in your premise. So if you are really trying to understand the Catholic position, that is what you should spend time understanding first.

A couple who uses NFP (abstains during the fertile time) but uses condoms during the infertile time can be much more “free” when they have sex –

Why would they be free? It is just a delusion to think one is free if one has to build fortifications to avoid conceiving. That sounds more a like a person under siege.

they waited those couple days just like a couple using NFP exclusively, they are not sex crazed or slaves to their urges, they just are taking extra precautions.

They are slaves to themselves. They are slaves to their fear of children. It means they do not trust God enough. True freedom is only found in following the will of the Lord.

Besides, the scenario is stupid. If a couple is going to use condoms when they are supposed to be practicing NFP then they need to stand still and re-think their position because it seems they can’t even see the utter hypocrisy in their practice.

They can give themselves freely bc their chances of conceiving are very slim, slimmer than the NFP-only couple.

You have been using that “free” word all too “freely” when it comes to sex and it just does not apply. There is no such thing as a freedom to do evil. That illusion of freedom in this instance is precisely just that – an illusion.

 

[benedictus2]

Actually while yes God could bypass any contraceptive method one could use that doesn;t mean he will. Just like if I jump of a tall building he could save me but that doesn;t me he will. So no using contraception in that case would not be pointless.

But the two are not even remotely like the other. Jumping of a building (suicide) is forbidden. As a matter of fact it is a sin.

Conceiving within the bounds of marriage is not. As a matter of fact it is much encouraged by God. So when you are contracepting you are in fact trying to thwart God’s possible action and you know that you will be successful because otherwise you would not even attempt it.

So again, if you think that God will over power all your attempts at going against His will then why are you even contracepting?

As for Samians post actually it could apply to a NFP using couple. I mean if they are a couple that believes that the only nonsinful options are abstinence or NFP then yes that could be them.

No one goes on NFP without knowing the upsides, downsides and in-betweens. So no it does not apply.

Besides even in this very forum I have seen people post on their frustrations with NFP and how they ended up with yet another unplanned pregnancy and so on.

But who says that NFP is 100% perfect. That is the whole point of NFP, you are opening yourself up to the possibilty that God will decide to give you a child against your wishes.

They are not real common but they are there. I would agree with you that yes much of the worry and praying would have come before they chose to have sex . Though I imagine if they decided to take the risk they would still likely be hoping and praying that they made the right choice even during the act and after!

Yes, they will but not quite in that ridiculous manner that Samian described. The first time I read it, it struck me as the behaviour of sex mad couples.

Oh and sheesh ABC users are not all sex crazed couples!

Okay, then let’s see them practice NFP. The major reason they are not practicing NFP is the sacrifice involved - not only in giving up sex for certain times of the month but also in the sacrifice involved should God decide to gift them with a child.

Also if it was an abc using couple why would they even care about not pulling out? Not that pulling out is very effective but still.

That’s true but all this debating while in the middle of intercourse usually happens with people who forgot to bring their condom that those who are knowingly practicing NFP.

Actually plenty of abc users do have to hold off for several days at a time. Though in those cases it is not because of fertility but because the basic realities of life

Exactly! If they can hold off for a while for the “basic realities of life” then why can’t they hold off for the “basic reality” that the woman is fertile so if they don’t want to have children then they will have to be content with holding hands.

not to mention many abcs user will still have kids.

All according to their will

You seem to be assuming that most of these abc users are all just sex maniacs who couldn;t possibly wait when it comes to sex!

If this is so then how come if you they are Christian, they are not practicing NFP? Because they want to have sex when they want and when they decide.

I read the article too it actually did make some good points. But just because contraception can be used for bad things for instance sex before marriage and adultry doesn;t mean that abuse it like that.

As Jane Smith pointed out, once it was approved it changes the mentality and the whole social psyche bit by depraved bit. Remember the frog analogy?

 

[benedictus2]

Also yes it does make sense that people who have kids would stay together more often then people without kids. However that of course doesn;t mean they will have happy marriages.

And all these options for a happy marriage is giving us divorce in plague proportions

My parents are a great example of this. They tried to stay together for my sisters and I’s sake at least until we were older but things never worked out. So I have to wonder how many of these marriages that stayed together ultimately because of their kids are really happy marriages?

As you may have noted her advice to those wishing to get married, one must be turned towards God. My parents marriage were far from happy. Growing up, our family was struggling most of the time. But the fact that they remained together is a great source of grace for us. People are too focused on their happiness, on the me, that that becomes paramount to the exclusion of everything else.

Once one learns self-sacrifice, so long as they are attuned to God, then that becomes an enormous avenue for grace, for healing, and for joy; real joy. Not as the world gives, but as Christ gives.

We tend to overemphasize this “feeling of happiness” that we forget that true joy, Christ’s joy is not just a “feeling”.

As for people becoming better because they have kids…to paint a broad picture of most or all people becoming better people is silly. You could probably also find tons of people who are horrid selfish parents who only had kids for their own gain or because they thought it was the thing to do.

That may be so, but people change us. The amount of change for the better comes from our openness to change and openness to growth. People who are too self-absorbed will probably be impacted less. Still I would not say that because they chose to have children for the wrong reasons, there is no grace in that. Children will always be a grace from God. If we are pliant to His will then will see them as such. If we are resistant then that profound truth will by pass us.

Not everyone becomes a great person because they had kids.

But the grace is there for one to accept if one so chooses. The chance is given to either shrivel up or flourish.

But she paints this lovely view of all parents that just isn;t true. I mean if she had said it makes some people better people she would have made a good point as it was she great exaggerated things. Also kids can and often bring ALOT of stress to a marriage.

And you can say that again.Our life is testimony to that.

That is why I keep re-iterating that that is a bogus argument, especially if one is a Christian because having children should not be up to us because creation is God’s prerogative.

We do not have a say on who is and is not a blessing. We have it on His say so.

So once again just because a marriage stays together doesn;t mean it is good one.

The command of fidelity to marriage was not predicated on a “happy marriage” whatever that means.

Marriage is sacred. But only couples whose married life is turned over to God will know what that truly means.

As for women being more free to be in the workplace. Well now if her husband abuses or cheats on her she may feel less trapped. Not to mention what if her husband died? The author seems to conviently ignore the bad things that could happen in the marriage that would make a woman want to walk away. [/qutoe]
Smith’s point was that it made walking away easy, so easy in fact that we now have a skyrocketing divorce rate.

And if your a woman who has spent your whole marriage at home relying on your husband to provide well its going to be pretty darn hard if you find yourself in a situation where you have to provide for yourself!

Again, our personal situation fits into this scenario. The whole problem with this line of argument is it is too materialistic. You are trying to find justifications for things that are intrinsically evil.

Instead, what should be done is to say, these things (contraception / divorce) are intrinsically evil so I will not even contemplate these and now I turn over my married life to God. Your arguments will only make sense from an atheistic point of view.

Especially if you have kids to provide for! Besides from what I have read the whole man works woman stays at home is a more recent thing in history. For most of history both men and women worked though women do have a lot more freedom now in what they can do which is good.

Again, scenario applied to us when I was young. But this is a very short sighted assessment of life.

As Christians we are meant to follow God’s will and trust that He will be faithful.
But this fidelity to God’s will is not something that you take a pill for and suddenly you are faithful. The fidelity is exercised precisely in these “desperate” and “dire” scenarios.

My mother’s fidelity to God was tested by the fact that we were poor and there were ten of us. And that is how her faith grew.

But again, an atheist will not understand that.

 

[catharina]

benedictus2, I salute you!

HAPPY EASTER!



:coffeeread:

 

[Calliso]

You state your religion as non-denominational,
that is, as Christian. Yes? So again, I’ll mention
that all of Christianity stood AGAINST abc until
the 1930s, then some said oh! it’s ok.

Then more and more and more said the same - ‘oh, ok.’
Yet the Catholic Church does not roll with the times
when to do so is in defiance of faith and morality.

So here we are.
I’m here, you’re there.
Yet the truth does not change.

Yes I consider myself a nondenominational Christian. And I know that all of Christianity stood against abc until the 1930s. I am just not convinced that they were all right in doing so. I mean I can understand standing against things like the pill. though that wasn;t even around until well after but things like condoms/withdrawal and the like? I really donlt get the reasoning.

 

[Calliso]

You defined curse, as “something that brings or causes great trouble or harm; -a cause of great suffering and distress”. If couples who are childless, don’t think of children in this way, why do they insist on remaining childless.

I am not being harsh or judgmental. I am just showing you aspects of your moral position which I don’t think you have given a thought to.

Again, that would be because your world view is materialistic.
So now I extend that thought as well. If you think that it is not fair to bring a child into the world with your medical condition, then that means that those children with that medical condition ought to be killed.
If a situation is so dire that it is better that someone not come to life at all, then it is therefore so dire, that life of those in this dire situation should be taken away from them.

No they don’t describe NFP couples even though they may be dejected and angry at first, at finding that they are pregnant when they did not expect to be. When a couple decides to use NFP it does not mean that they are always completely in this euphoric disposition to God’s will. Following God is a struggle. But the scenario that you outlined is a caricature which depicts ABCers more that NFPers. Even an NFPer who is upset at finding out she is pregnant still do not fall into that lurid scenario you gave.

And that is true, but it doesn’t mean that there is no grace, no blessing that comes with that struggling that happens when you find out you are pregnant. This is actually a grace in itself as you are called to a greater surrender of your entire being to God.

NFP is a training ground in self-mastery and trust in God. These things do not come with a blink of an eye. The good thing about NFP is involves a total change of way of life and of perspective. There will always be selfishness and desire to have it our way, but NFP if practiced faithfully not only helps space children but allows us to dethrone the self by this constant surrender to God of our sexuality.

If you are a responsible parent you will be a responsible parent - one who brings children to life.

Again, this is because you are approaching this discussion from the vantage point of total autonomy from God. Of course if you make yourself god, you can think in such a way.

But I go back to your OP where you included God in your premise. So if you are really trying to understand the Catholic position, that is what you should spend time understanding first.

Why would they be free? It is just a delusion to think one is free if one has to build fortifications to avoid conceiving. That sounds more a like a person under siege.
They are slaves to themselves. They are slaves to their fear of children. It means they do not trust God enough. True freedom is only found in following the will of the Lord.

Besides, the scenario is stupid. If a couple is going to use condoms when they are supposed to be practicing NFP then they need to stand still and re-think their position because it seems they can’t even see the utter hypocrisy in their practice.

You have been using that “free” word all too “freely” when it comes to sex and it just does not apply. There is no such thing as a freedom to do evil. That illusion of freedom in this instance is precisely just that – an illusion.

Well I am one of those who chose to remain childless and I donlt view Children as a curse. However personally to me I would not see a child as a blessing either. Yes I realize though that my opinion doesn;t matter and children are blessings. But for me a child would be a negative thing. Heck me having a child would be more a negative thing for the child then it would be for me more then likely. I have given the thought of having children much careful thought and you know what I have one nonselfish reason for having kids ONE and that is to give my parents grandchildren. But its not like they ever indicated they wanted any anyway. I donlt dislike children for the most part though other then naughty miss behaving children and even then I am more mad at the parents for not keeping their kids in better control.

Yes clearly a parent will have kids but that doesn;t mean that they can;t at times decide ok we are not going to have any more for a time. I don;t know a lot about the Catholic church but I am pretty sure it doesn;t not require its followers to never practice child spacing.

I really donlt see the big deal with using condoms with NFP. I imagine that these people are probably using such a system because they are trying to avoid chemical methods such as the pill for various reasons such as the potential side affects, Also probably because they are still open to having children otherwise why not just get sterilized? Using the condom allows them just a little bit of extra protection so there is a little less worry involved. Also I imagine most people who use the condoms/nfp method do have sex during the fertile period at times. There is actually a name for this method I can;t rememvber what it is though.

 

[Calliso]

But the two are not even remotely like the other. Jumping of a building (suicide) is forbidden. As a matter of fact it is a sin.

Conceiving within the bounds of marriage is not. As a matter of fact it is much encouraged by God. So when you are contracepting you are in fact trying to thwart God’s possible action and you know that you will be successful because otherwise you would not even attempt it.

So again, if you think that God will over power all your attempts at going against His will then why are you even contracepting?

No one goes on NFP without knowing the upsides, downsides and in-betweens. So no it does not apply.
But who says that NFP is 100% perfect. That is the whole point of NFP, you are opening yourself up to the possibilty that God will decide to give you a child against your wishes.
Yes, they will but not quite in that ridiculous manner that Samian described. The first time I read it, it struck me as the behaviour of sex mad couples.
Okay, then let’s see them practice NFP. The major reason they are not practicing NFP is the sacrifice involved - not only in giving up sex for certain times of the month but also in the sacrifice involved should God decide to gift them with a child.

That’s true but all this debating while in the middle of intercourse usually happens with people who forgot to bring their condom that those who are knowingly practicing NFP.

Exactly! If they can hold off for a while for the “basic realities of life” then why can’t they hold off for the “basic reality” that the woman is fertile so if they don’t want to have children then they will have to be content with holding hands.
All according to their will
If this is so then how come if you they are Christian, they are not practicing NFP? Because they want to have sex when they want and when they decide.
As Jane Smith pointed out, once it was approved it changes the mentality and the whole social psyche bit by depraved bit. Remember the frog analogy?

Once again just because I think God can do something doesn;t mean he will. Cause yes if I actually believed that that God would directly intervene I would have never bothered using the pill well assuming my husband believed the same as well.

I really would not mind not having sex during certain times of the month. Though never being able to have sex during the fertile times would suck at times since you know for women that is the best time and all. But its not like I only desire sex during that one time during the month though. So it would not be much of a sacrifice. Of course this could be a problem for instance if you have a couple with a woman who has very low desire and she only desires sex at all during those times. But true I am not using NFP because I fear I will end up with a child if I use it. Cause knowing my luck and me in general I will chose the wrong method and then mess something up or just have a case of bad luck and get pregnant even when I shoudl have been infertile. I just think NFP would bring more stress then sex is worth. I mean constantly worrying everytime we have sex wondering if we chose the right method if we read the signs right, especially when you read stories of people who did everything right and things still went wrong. Nah as hard as abstinence is its better then that. I just pray for menopause to come early lol! But while I can;t speak for others that donlt use NFP. My reasons donlt have to do really with not being able to have sex whenever.

 

[Calliso]

And all these options for a happy marriage is giving us divorce in plague proportions
As you may have noted her advice to those wishing to get married, one must be turned towards God. My parents marriage were far from happy. Growing up, our family was struggling most of the time. But the fact that they remained together is a great source of grace for us. People are too focused on their happiness, on the me, that that becomes paramount to the exclusion of everything else.

Once one learns self-sacrifice, so long as they are attuned to God, then that becomes an enormous avenue for grace, for healing, and for joy; real joy. Not as the world gives, but as Christ gives.

We tend to overemphasize this “feeling of happiness” that we forget that true joy, Christ’s joy is not just a “feeling”.
That may be so, but people change us. The amount of change for the better comes from our openness to change and openness to growth. People who are too self-absorbed will probably be impacted less. Still I would not say that because they chose to have children for the wrong reasons, there is no grace in that. Children will always be a grace from God. If we are pliant to His will then will see them as such. If we are resistant then that profound truth will by pass us.

But the grace is there for one to accept if one so chooses. The chance is given to either shrivel up or flourish.
And you can say that again.Our life is testimony to that.

That is why I keep re-iterating that that is a bogus argument, especially if one is a Christian because having children should not be up to us because creation is God’s prerogative.

We do not have a say on who is and is not a blessing. We have it on His say so.
The command of fidelity to marriage was not predicated on a “happy marriage” whatever that means.

Marriage is sacred. But only couples whose married life is turned over to God will know what that truly means.

As for women being more free to be in the workplace. Well now if her husband abuses or cheats on her she may feel less trapped. Not to mention what if her husband died? The author seems to conviently ignore the bad things that could happen in the marriage that would make a woman want to walk away. [/qutoe]
Smith’s point was that it made walking away easy, so easy in fact that we now have a skyrocketing divorce rate.
Again, our personal situation fits into this scenario. The whole problem with this line of argument is it is too materialistic. You are trying to find justifications for things that are intrinsically evil.

 

[catharina]

Yes I consider myself a nondenominational Christian. And I know that all of Christianity stood against abc until the 1930s. I am just not convinced that they were all right in doing so. I mean I can understand standing against things like the pill. though that wasn;t even around until well after but things like condoms/withdrawal and the like? I really donlt get the reasoning.

What the Church understands (now and always) is that creation is a gift from God and is in the hands of God. It’s that simple. That others broke away from this truth is not the fault of the Catholic Church. It still proclaims the same truth. That fact alone should appeal to anyone’s reasoning. God’s Word = unchanging truth.

 

[bethanysamuel]

i recently split with a long term partner because i dont want kids with him and we were living in sin. marriage wasnt an option coz i dont want kids. its a tough call, but theyre the rules. only prob is im now in love with my priest can someone please answer to my thread coz i already posted bout the priest thing but it vanished! i need answers!

 

[Calliso]

Ok whew now I think I can address the rest of that article! You know I have yet to see any proof that just because God says be fruitful and multiply that he means that all married couples should have children or be open to children. I mean he gave the command when there was a couple people on the planet! I also think her so called evidence that women experience extra desire during ovulution is evidence of this is poor. I mean animals experience the desire to mate during ovolution too! But I donlt think Gods command applied to animals too or did it?

Yeah the pill is not exactly the safest option.Though not all women have any side affects to it. Personally though yeah it is pretty ****** that they stopped testing on the male form of the pill when side affects starting showing up but continued on with the womens! I think renewed focus should be put on finding a male contraceptive pill lol!

Personally I think men are the lucky ones being able to have sex and not get pregnant! I donlt view it as a defect to be able to get pregnant. But yeah I do feel it is kinda a burden at least for me not for the species as a whole. For human beings as a whole it is a good thing.

Well what if neither couple wants to give that part their fertility to each other? I mean what if it is agreed on? How is that diminishing the bonding in a marriage? I do agree that saying I want to have a baby with you and be with you through the long haul is a great thing. However one can say I want to be with you for the long haul and still not want to have kids with that person. Nothing against that person either necessarily. I mean I love my husband I think we would produce beautiful babies that isn;t enough reason though for me to have kids though. I will say this though if my husband said he wanted kids after making sure he was serious yes I would make the sacrifice. I would just pray that our lives and our potential childrens lives would not be ruined.

Yes contraceptiing doesn;t mean you will have great free sex lives. However it doesn;t mean that you can;t either. Using NFP doesn;t mean you will have a great sex life either! Now I can see her point about communication bringing a better sex life or at least potentially bringing a better sex life. But a person that contracepts can have great communication in their marriage as well. She kinda painted this negative view of the contraceptive using couple that I donlt feel is always realistic and this super positive view of the nfp using couple that isn;t always realistic either. I mean I guess its too black and white for me does that make sense?

I admit the rosy picture of NFP she paints though almost makes me want to try it in my marriage. I mean I do really miss being able to have sex with my husband. But I just haven;t decided if it is worth the risk yet.

 

[samiam1611]

i recently split with a long term partner because i dont want kids with him and we were living in sin. marriage wasnt an option coz i dont want kids. its a tough call, but theyre the rules. only prob is im now in love with my priest can someone please answer to my thread coz i already posted bout the priest thing but it vanished! i need answers!

you are probably infatuated, not in love, with your priest. you probably just have a crush. maybe you can see a different priest, and if so, your feelings for your current one will fade and you’ll be able to move on to a more meaningful relationship, one that has potential.

 

[benedictus2]

Well I am one of those who chose to remain childless and I donlt view Children as a curse. However personally to me I would not see a child as a blessing either.

Then you disagree with God BIG TIME. Your viewpoint is not God’s viewpoint.

Children can be trials. When they are small, the constant care, the late nights, the sickness and all the things that go with nurturing life will demand much from the parents especially the mother.
But even when they are grown, one does not stop being a parent. One’s life remains tied to their sorrows and their joys. One continues to suffer with them and for them. But it is precisely in that self-giving that our soul grows, that God transforms us into the image of His Son.

I can understand your viewpoint considering that you are non-denominational. Most people in this group prefer to think of the gospel as a gospel of prosperity. They fail to see that Easter cannot be had without Good Friday.

Yes I realize though that my opinion doesn;t matter and children are blessings.

Actually, your opinion does matter to God. He wants your flourishing. He wants your cooperation with His will.

But instead of being intransingent, we can say to Him in total humility something like: “Lord, this wonderful creature that you created in your Image, I do not see as a blessing. I see them as a burden. I see them as an encumberance that will limit my happiness. And yet I see in your Holy Word, how You constantly say that they are your blessings. Help me to see your creation with your eyes that I may order my life according to Your Will”

Perhaps the one thing that God needs to change in you is that viewpoint. That is probably the one thing that really needs to be healed in your heart. Many graces may be tied to this changing of your world view.

But for me a child would be a negative thing.

Which again is exactly the opposite of God’s. So how do you reconcile this with your belief in God’s Word.

Heck me having a child would be more a negative thing for the child then it would be for me more then likely.

No. That is something you soooooo do not know.

That you are even in this forum and presumably are seeking some light means that in some way you are trying to tune your mind and heart to truth. And what children need more than anything - after their basic needs have been met - is to be constantly directed towards God.

You need to stop thinking as an atheist and start truly believing the Gospel. But for this change you need to pray. Prayer is the most powerful tool for change.

Ask God to create a new heart and a new mind in you. One that sees His creation as He sees them. You were a child once and He loved you to death in the same way He loved everyone to death.

Unless you see creation with God’s eyes, you will see them with the EvilOne’s eyes. There is no middle ground.

A new translation of St Ignatius’ Spiritual Exercises was titled “Choosing Christ in the World”.

Our goal is always to do that: to choose Christ because there is no midway. Not to choose Christ is to chose the prince of this world.

 

[benedictus2]

i recently split with a long term partner because i dont want kids with him and we were living in sin. marriage wasnt an option coz i dont want kids. its a tough call, but theyre the rules. only prob is im now in love with my priest can someone please answer to my thread coz i already posted bout the priest thing but it vanished! i need answers!

Short but to the point answer. Dethrone the unholy trinity of the I/Me/Myself of bethanysamuel. Repent.

Based on this short post: you are self-absorbed, self-obsessed, self-centred. I don’t think you are seeking answers. You want someone to validate your disordered viewpoint.

Take a long hard look at yourself and get an old holy priest as your confessor.

 

[benedictus2]

Once again just because I think God can do something doesn;t mean he will. Cause yes if I actually believed that that God would directly intervene I would have never bothered using the pill well assuming my husband believed the same as well.

If God will not directly intervene then this “If He so wishes He will” becomes a bogus argument.

That was precisely my point : that you contracept because you don’t think God will intervene.

 

[samiam1611]

I also think her so called evidence that women experience extra desire during ovulution is evidence of this is poor.

I think the increased desire during ovulation is the result of evolution (or intelligent design if that’s your thing.) Seems pretty intelligent to me - make the female more motivated to find a mate during her fertile times, propagating the species.

You know I have yet to see any proof that just because God says be fruitful and multiply that he means that all married couples should have children or be open to children. I mean he gave the command when there was a couple people on the planet!

I agree that that line alone does not suggest that willingness to have children be a requirement to marriage.

I mean I do really miss being able to have sex with my husband. But I just haven;t decided if it is worth the risk yet.

Since you’re not Catholic, I say use whatever the heck contraception you feel like using and have sex. I still think it’s better to be unitive and not procreative than neither.

 

[benedictus2]

Personally I think men are the lucky ones being able to have sex and not get pregnant!

And in that one statement you summarized your view point. You want to have sex for its pleasure without the possibility of a child.

As I have mentioned before, its all about me, me, me.
This just validates the article even more.

 

[benedictus2]

Ok whew now I think I can address the rest of that article! You know I have yet to see any proof that just because God says be fruitful and multiply that he means that all married couples should have children or be open to children. I mean he gave the command when there was a couple people on the planet! I also think her so called evidence that women experience extra desire during ovulution is evidence of this is poor. I mean animals experience the desire to mate during ovolution too! But I donlt think Gods command applied to animals too or did it?

But isn’t that the exact point of the article, that the increased sexual desire during ovulation is God coding into our DNA the propagation of the species. But we have God’s command to do this because of all God’s creatures we are the only one who can willfully go against this coding.

Well what if neither couple wants to give that part their fertility to each other?
I mean what if it is agreed on? How is that diminishing the bonding in a marriage?

Because that means that both are self-obsessed.

I do agree that saying I want to have a baby with you and be with you through the long haul is a great thing. However one can say I want to be with you for the long haul and still not want to have kids with that person. Nothing against that person either necessarily. I mean I love my husband I think we would produce beautiful babies that isn;t enough reason though for me to have kids though.

That you will produce “beautiful babies” has nothing to do with it. I don’t know but we have been saying this for the longest time but it still continues to escape you.

It is not about whether babies are beautiful or ugly, irritable or placid, etc etc. It is all about being open to God’s creative action. It is about being given over to His will. His Will be done.

That is not a statement that an atheist would understand but one would think that a Christian would grasp that concept.

 

[benedictus2]

benedictus2, I salute you!

HAPPY EASTER!



:coffeeread:

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Thank you. Same to you. The clarity of your posts is a pleasure to read.

May the Peace and Joy of Our Risen Lord be with you, your family and everyone you know.!