Can a couple who don't want to have children get married under the grace of God?

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“By its very nature the institution of marriage and married love is ordered to the procreation and education of the offspring and it is in them that it finds its crowning glory.”

Children are the supreme gift of marriage and contribute greatly to the good of the parents themselves. God himself said: “It is not good that man should be alone,” and “from the beginning [he] made them male and female”; wishing to associate them in a special way in his own creative work, God blessed man and woman with the words: “Be fruitful and multiply.” Hence, true married love and the whole structure of family life which results from it, without diminishment of the other ends of marriage, are directed to disposing the spouses to cooperate valiantly with the love of the Creator and Savior, who through them will increase and enrich his family from day to day.
That’s all well and good, but does not expain the sinfulness of wanting to be married and have sex and not want children.

“Be fruitful and multiply” - a line I see frequently. But how do you get “getting married with the intention to not have kids is a sin” from that? See I’m not questioning why it is good to have kids so much as I am asking why is it bad to not want kids?
 
WHY? We believe in an almighty God.
We seek to do His will, not our own will.

See Post # 209.
oh sorry, you must’ve posted 209 while I was typing that so did not see it till just now. It’s very difficult to grasp. Me and my hedonistic, atheistic ways 😛
 
If you feel like reading through this thread from the beginning, you will see that I attempted to find an exception to the rule by coming up with all these wacky scenarios (like praying for a miscarriage) but apparently there are none…except that some people said hmmm, that is a tough one, or something along those lines. Feel free to add some wacky scenarios yourself! Maybe I didn’t get wacky enough. So far though…seems to be pretty strict.
The scenarios don’t really matter. What matters is the state of your heart. There can be allowances for extreme cases, but we wouldn’t be able to define those here as they are not codified. Thinking that it’s ok to have a childless marriage because that’s what you’d prefer is simply not Catholic.
 
That’s all well and good, but does not expain the sinfulness of wanting to be married and have sex and not want children.
And yet if your heart is open to having children despite your own desires, its still ok. This is why no one can judge you–we don’t really know. Only you know exactly how open you are to having children.
 
The way I understand it, and what I have experienced in my own life is that marriage with children turns us inside out and forces us to grow in virtue and work as a team.
It sounds like you’re well-suited for married life and motherhood.
Do you see how that is only true for some people though? But the Church seems to think it’s true for everyone? (everyone who wants to get married that is) I think what was a challenge, but ultimately rewarding experience for you would be be an entirely unpleasant experience for me. Unpleasant at best. Disaster for all involved at worst.
I could talk about/complain on and on about the reasons I don’t want kids, but that’s not actually the thing I’m trying to convey here. Those reasons ultimately reflect my desire to not give up my lifestyle.
What I really want to convey - and this is where my confusion of man being made in God’s image comes in - is that the desire to procreate is absent in me. If I was Eve, there’d be no human race once me and Adam died. No lie. The human race would die out if all humans felt like me.
 
It sounds like you’re well-suited for married life and motherhood.
Do you see how that is only true for some people though? But the Church seems to think it’s true for everyone? (everyone who wants to get married that is) I think what was a challenge, but ultimately rewarding experience for you would be be an entirely unpleasant experience for me. Unpleasant at best. Disaster for all involved at worst.
I could talk about/complain on and on about the reasons I don’t want kids, but that’s not actually the thing I’m trying to convey here. Those reasons ultimately reflect my desire to not give up my lifestyle. ** The Church recognizes that as a selfish choice, contrary to God’s plan for humanity. It’s that simple.**

What I really want to convey - and this is where my confusion of man being made in God’s image comes in - is that the desire to procreate is absent in me. If I was Eve, there’d be no human race once me and Adam died. No lie. The human race would die out if all humans felt like me.
 
It sounds like you’re well-suited for married life and motherhood.
Do you see how that is only true for some people though? But the Church seems to think it’s true for everyone? (everyone who wants to get married that is) I think what was a challenge, but ultimately rewarding experience for you would be be an entirely unpleasant experience for me. Unpleasant at best. Disaster for all involved at worst.
I could talk about/complain on and on about the reasons I don’t want kids, but that’s not actually the thing I’m trying to convey here. Those reasons ultimately reflect my desire to not give up my lifestyle.
What I really want to convey - and this is where my confusion of man being made in God’s image comes in - is that the desire to procreate is absent in me. If I was Eve, there’d be no human race once me and Adam died. No lie. The human race would die out if all humans felt like me.
Well one could argue then that one should not get married if one feels on wants or should not have children. But then not everyone makes the decision before they get married not to have kids. Myself for instance before I got married my view on having kids was sure maybe one day. After getting married and spending much time weighing the pros and cons. I decided that for us kids would overall be a negative thing not just for us but them too. I am a firm believer that kids should have parents that really want them and would be good parents. I think even if I decided I really wanted kids I would not have them because it would not be fair to them. My husband has more or less told me that it is up to me either way.

I think the human race would have died out with me too lol! I think I may have had one kid but then after that I would have been like no more no more dear God no more!!!
 
The Church recognizes that as a selfish choice, contrary to God’s plan for humanity. It’s that simple
I recognize that; but the selfish reasons are secondary to the primary reason - I don’t want to reproduce.
(A tertiary reason would be that I think it’s wrong to bring a child into the world who would have a lot of my genes; that is not selfish either, and furthermore, I think there are too many needy children out there so it’s naricisstic to want one’s own. I’m the opposite of narcisstic - in the unlikely event that I decide I do want to be a parent, I would have foster children bc they are the most needy)
So why are the non-selfish reasons sinful? Why is the non-existence of a lauded desire sinful?
 
I recognize that; but the selfish reasons are secondary to the primary reason - I don’t want to reproduce.
(A tertiary reason would be that I think it’s wrong to bring a child into the world who would have a lot of my genes; that is not selfish either, and furthermore, I think there are too many needy children out there so it’s naricisstic to want one’s own. I’m the opposite of narcisstic - in the unlikely event that I decide I do want to be a parent, I would have foster children bc they are the most needy)
So why are the non-selfish reasons sinful? Why is the non-existence of a lauded desire sinful?
I responded to a direct quote from you.

*YOU:
“Those reasons ultimately reflect my desire to not give up my lifestyle.” *

MY response to that:
“The Church recognizes that as a selfish choice, contrary to God’s plan for humanity.
It’s that simple.”
 
I responded to a direct quote from you.

*YOU:
“Those reasons ultimately reflect my desire to not give up my lifestyle.” *

MY response to that:
“The Church recognizes that as a selfish choice, contrary to God’s plan for humanity.
It’s that simple.”
I understand… That’s why I did not go on and on with my selfish reasons, bc they’re self explanatory why they’re sins. But being secondary reasons, they are sort of irrelevant when it comes to condemning the whole thing as a sin. Why is absence of the procreative urge sinful?
 
I understand… That’s why I did not go on and on with my selfish reasons, bc they’re self explanatory why they’re sins. But being secondary reasons, they are sort of irrelevant when it comes to condemning the whole thing as a sin. Why is absence of the procreative urge sinful?
It has little to do with a procreative “urge.”
It has everything to do with a function of marriage.
 
It has little to do with a procreative “urge.”
It has everything to do with a function of marriage.
:doh2: don’t know where my head was at

So this is how it is, if one strives to follow the Catholic Church’s rules:
If a fertile man and a fertile woman are in love, but unwilling to have children, they cannot get married. They cannot cohabitate. They cannot fool around or have sexual relations like oral sex. They cannot have intercourse. They cannot lust after one another either.
In other words, they will have to break up and not be a couple anymore bc being open to life is more important than letting 2 people experience life-long, devoted, intimate love that people who are open to life or people who are naturally infertile get to have.
 
SamIAm,

I don’t believe that not having a procreative urge is sinful, in and of itself. It’s just where you are right now.

What Catholics believe is not that you have to want kids, but that you have to be open to God’s will and respect sex as it was designed by God.

The starting point to everything Catholic is faith; otherwise, it’s just a set of rules and regulations. At some point we have to step out in faith, as when Jesus called Peter to walk on the water. At some point we have to let go of the controls, and trust that God really does know what He’s doing. (It’s not like we really have control of everything anyway–that’s just an illusion.) At some point we have to say, “Okay Lord…not my will be done, but thy will be done,” realizing that everything God brings our way is for our sanctification.

It’s one thing to say, I trust you, Lord, and it’s another to really act that out in our life. Often we will say, “I trust you Lord in everything, except for this area. I think I know better than you in that area, so let’s just leave that to me. Okay?” Usually it’s finances and fertility.

One of the best prayers we can say is “Lord show me your will for my life…and give me the desire for that will.” Be honest with Him. Ask Him, “Lord why did you make me this way? Why don’t I want kids but want marriage? Is there something I am missing here? Show me the way. I want to want what you want, but I just don’t want it right now. Help me to understand.”

If you do that with an open heart, you will get an answer.
:blessyou:
 
I understand… That’s why I did not go on and on with my selfish reasons, bc they’re self explanatory why they’re sins. But being secondary reasons, they are sort of irrelevant when it comes to condemning the whole thing as a sin. Why is absence of the procreative urge sinful?
Your feelings aren’t sins unless you act on your desires in inappropriate ways.

There is nothing inherently sinful about not wanting children, the only sinful thing is using ABC (or NFP inappropriately) to avoid them.

Couple who do not desire children are prefectly free to marry as long as they don’t contracept and do welcome any children that God provides.

Even Jesus was allowed to express his desire:
And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.
 
SamIAm,

I don’t believe that not having a procreative urge is sinful, in and of itself. It’s just where you are right now.

What Catholics believe is not that you have to want kids, but that you have to be open to God’s will and respect sex as it was designed by God.

The starting point to everything Catholic is faith; otherwise, it’s just a set of rules and regulations. At some point we have to step out in faith, as when Jesus called Peter to walk on the water. At some point we have to let go of the controls, and trust that God really does know what He’s doing. (It’s not like we really have control of everything anyway–that’s just an illusion.) At some point we have to say, “Okay Lord…not my will be done, but thy will be done,” realizing that everything God brings our way is for our sanctification.

It’s one thing to say, I trust you, Lord, and it’s another to really act that out in our life. Often we will say, “I trust you Lord in everything, except for this area. I think I know better than you in that area, so let’s just leave that to me. Okay?” Usually it’s finances and fertility.

One of the best prayers we can say is “Lord show me your will for my life…and give me the desire for that will.” Be honest with Him. Ask Him, “Lord why did you make me this way? Why don’t I want kids but want marriage? Is there something I am missing here? Show me the way. I want to want what you want, but I just don’t want it right now. Help me to understand.”

If you do that with an open heart, you will get an answer.
Code:
:blessyou:
Yet again, your answer is very helpful. Being an atheist, I do indeed see a lot of the Catholic Church’s teachings as rules and regulations. It’s hard to get inside your heads’ (and hearts’) and get this whole “faith” thing. I need to remind myself of your analogy to a the Catholic Church being like a personal trainer. That really struck a chord with me and whenever I get confused on why someone would want to follow such rules when there are other options available, I really ought to remind myself of that.
 
But I still think the Church Fathers got it all wrong! 😃
:tsktsk: You’re bad!!! Hehe…
I think there are too many needy children out there so it’s naricisstic to want one’s own. I’m the opposite of narcisstic - in the unlikely event that I decide I do want to be a parent, I would have foster children bc they are the most needy)
I think it’s great to have foster children and help the needy, but one other thing to understand about Catholics is their perspective is eternal rather than temporal.

When we talk about having kids, we are talking not just about a short-lived life on earth, but more importantly about an eternal soul and eternal happiness with God in Heaven. When we seek happiness, we aren’t just seeking it here on earth, but also for all of eternity.

With an eternal perspective, there could never be too many children (or too many souls), and whatever temporal suffering (or happiness) we experience here on earth will pale in comparison to eternity. :yup:
 
:doh2: don’t know where my head was at

So this is how it is, if one strives to follow the Catholic Church’s rules:
If a fertile man and a fertile woman are in love, but unwilling to have children, they cannot get married. They cannot cohabitate. They cannot fool around or have sexual relations like oral sex. They cannot have intercourse. They cannot lust after one another either.
In other words, they will have to break up and not be a couple anymore bc being open to life is more important than letting 2 people experience life-long, devoted, intimate love that people who are open to life or people who are naturally infertile get to have.
SamIAm,

I don’t believe that not having a procreative urge is sinful, in and of itself. It’s just where you are right now.

What Catholics believe is not that you have to want kids, but that you have to be open to God’s will and respect sex as it was designed by God.

The starting point to everything Catholic is faith; otherwise, it’s just a set of rules and regulations. At some point we have to step out in faith, as when Jesus called Peter to walk on the water. At some point we have to let go of the controls, and trust that God really does know what He’s doing. (It’s not like we really have control of everything anyway–that’s just an illusion.) At some point we have to say, “Okay Lord…not my will be done, but thy will be done,” realizing that everything God brings our way is for our sanctification.

It’s one thing to say, I trust you, Lord, and it’s another to really act that out in our life. Often we will say, “I trust you Lord in everything, except for this area. I think I know better than you in that area, so let’s just leave that to me. Okay?” Usually it’s finances and fertility.

One of the best prayers we can say is “Lord show me your will for my life…and give me the desire for that will.” Be honest with Him. Ask Him, “Lord why did you make me this way? Why don’t I want kids but want marriage? Is there something I am missing here? Show me the way. I want to want what you want, but I just don’t want it right now. Help me to understand.”

If you do that with an open heart, you will get an answer.
Code:
:blessyou:
 
Sorry for my delayed response, I don’t have regular internet access. I’m writing with the intention of being direct, I hope none of it comes off as unkind.
Ok this is interesting…tell me if I’m getting this right. I feel that I do give myself fully bc the desire for children is absent in me, that’s why I was having trouble with that phrase. But what you are saying is, included in that phrase and the word unity is it’s not just about two spouses giving themselves physically and emotionally, it’s about bringing God into each act as well?
The problem here is that you’re using your feelings to dicate your actions. Feelings are changeable, they’re based entirely on emotion, which is not bad if you’re using them to influence your decisons, but very bad if you’re using them to direct your actions. Just because you feel as though you’re giving yourself fully doesn’t mean you actually are. If you were aware of how much more fully you could be giving yourself, you would realize that your feelings are based on limited experience and limited understanding.

You are not sharing the desire for children, when you give yourself fully, so whether the desire is there is unimportant, you are simply giving yourself, without reservation, which includes your ability to concieve children, not barring off aspects of yourself. If you are contracepting, certain aspects of your emotional and physical self are closed off in the process, which denies the act full unity.

God is also necessary for full unity, because it is only with and in God that we are able to love. This does not mean that atheists are unable to love and have happy marriages, because God is still present in their lives, even if they fail to recognize him, but the intimacy and unity that could be is not there because they have not pursued the greater intimacy that is possible for them.
if the couple says to themselves, to God, to the priest who is about to marry them, “we won’t use artificial contraception but if NFP fails, we will give any and all children that result up for adoption.” What is your take on that? Basically they are saying, we won’t abort. But that’s as far as they’ll go, welcoming-wise.
The couple is not aborting and they are not contracepting, which is a great step towards welcoming life, but they aren’t actually welcoming life. A good priest would continue the discussion: “Why exactly are you refusing so completely to raise up your children? What is it about having children that you’re afraid of?” He would also, in my opinion, refuse to marry them, because they are only willing to avoid evil, they aren’t willing to actually do good. And also because in that case, they would be using NFP in a contraceptive sense (in other words, their mindset would be contraceptive, even if they weren’t employing articficial means).
Could you tell me exactly why some is NOT better than none? Sex within a marriage promotes fidelity for instance. So isn’t giving yourself, whether it’s truly your whole self or not, better than none, if none could lead to lust or even infidelity? That’s just an example, I could probably think of more…
For the same reason that spending some nights with your husband and other’s with another man is wrong. Or giving some of your faith to God, but reserving the rest “just in case”. It pollutes that which is given. There is a verse in the New Testament…(I’m awful about quoting chapter and verse, it’s somewhere outside the gospel)…saying that God would rather you be hot or cold, it’s that insipid temperature in between that turns his stomach and causes him to spit you out. Marriage is much like that, if you give yourself only halfway, you’d be better off having given nothing at all.
…wondering why that makes sex with ABC so definitively illicit. It seems to me that a couple should get to decide for themselves - as opposed to the Pope or Church Fathers etc - what will result in more unity - having joyful, passionate, loving sex, or sitting on opposite sides of the room bc they know if they get close it’s going to lead to lustful thoughts and feelings.(totally exaggerating, but you know what I mean.) Maybe for some couples, restraint has a positive effect on their marriage, but there’s no way that’s true for me. We show our love in other ways all the time! If neither person wants children, sex with contraception is totally self-giving, everything else is partial. Sex is not just about the body or pleasure (at least in a marriage), that we all agree on. It seems the Church does not fully recognize the positive effect - the emotional bond - that results from sex, even when a contraceptive is used.
Couples do have to decide for themselves, but that doesn’t make it any less a wrong decision. Having contraceptive sex may result in more sex, but that doesn’t translate to more unity. Also, it’s hopeful that the married couple is mature enough to be able to spend time together without either needing to have sex or being forced into lustful thoughts. The essential point is that NFP is not meant to be used on a permanent basis for couples who never, ever want children. It is meant to be used only as a sort of “worst case senario”, indicating that there are other serious and undesireable issues in the marriage that need to be changed and that the couple is hoping to change.

The Church really does realize the intense emotional bond that all sex creates between the couple, which is why the Church is so insistent that sex not be misused, and misdirected into merely a “I feel really good and lovey when we do this” sort of drug for couples. It’s more than that, and the opportunity for procreation can’t be removed without doing damage to the whole.

Hope that all makes sense.
Blessings.
 
I personally know a woman who was told by her doctor she would never have a child. She now has two. When God is there, it is always possible for the act to be procreative so long as we follow His plan.
But about when it is genetically impossible, such as when one has an extra (e.g. Klinefelter’s Syndrome) or absent (Turner’s Syndrome) sex chromosome. I also wonder if you could marry knowing that you or your betrothed was born of the opposite gender only by “accident” (i.e. as an XY female or XX male).
 
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