Can a couple who don't want to have children get married under the grace of God?

[Jaaanosik]

How can they know that having babies would drive them nuts if they never had any babies?

Of course I’m not surprised at people’s rejection of children in our society. It’s hard to have it your way when you have kids. It means having to grow up… really. You can’t be self-indulgent and be a good parent.

I can only speak for myself but the rewards of being a parent far, far outweighed and continue to outweigh any sacrifices I had to make.

They could see families with more children around them. Maybe that can lead to that.

 

[Jaaanosik]

No, you are supposed to have a properly formed conscience. In other words, you are supposed to form your conscience according to the teaching of the Magesterium. That’s the Church’s teaching.

That’s not correct:

The Catholic Church has always held to the primacy of conscience and taught that individuals must follow their consciences even when they are wrong. (Vatican II, On Religious Liberty (1965), §2)

ewtn.com/library/DOCTRINE/CONSC.TXT

 

[Corki]

That’s not correct:

ewtn.com/library/DOCTRINE/CONSC.TXT

CCC

1785 In the formation of conscience the Word of God is the light for our path,54 we must assimilate it in faith and prayer and put it into practice. We must also examine our conscience before the Lord’s Cross. We are assisted by the gifts of the Holy Spirit, aided by the witness or advice of others and guided by the authoritative teaching of the Church.55

1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.

1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin."59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

In short, if one has not properly formed his conscience and follows this malformed conscience, he is morally culpable. Acting on your conscience does not excuse error.

 

[PatriceA]

That’s not correct:

ewtn.com/library/DOCTRINE/CONSC.TXT

Did you bother to read the WHOLE doctrine? No where in that doctrine does it say that Catholics are allowed to follow their conscience because they have studied the issue and disagree. And certainly that doctrine can not be applied to disagreeing with the vows one takes within the Sacrament of Martimony, which is the subject of this thread.

 

[Jaaanosik]

CCC

In short, if one has not properly formed his conscience and follows this malformed conscience, he is morally culpable. Acting on your conscience does not excuse error.

It boils down to how we are going to be judged.

Edit: Your quotes don’t mandate the Magisterium above conscience.

 

[Jaaanosik]

Did you bother to read the WHOLE doctrine? No where in that doctrine does it say that Catholics are allowed to follow their conscience because they have studied the issue and disagree. And certainly that doctrine can not be applied to disagreeing with the vows one takes within the Sacrament of Martimony, which is the subject of this thread.

The quote is valid. Check the post above yours.
If you are going against your well informed conscience you are condemning yourself.

1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.

 

[PatriceA]

The quote is valid. Check the post above yours.
If you are going against your well informed conscience you are condemning yourself.

The quote is valid, but you took it out of context from the doctrine. Again, did you bother to read the rest of the doctrine, or did you stop at that quote to justify your comment?

 

[Jaaanosik]

The quote is valid, but you took it out of context from the doctrine. Again, did you bother to read the rest of the doctrine, or did you stop at that quote to justify your comment?

I quoted an article on conscience. The article referenced the doctrine.
I did not say that doctrine was the only thing about conscience.
My apologies if I confused you or anybody else.

 

[benedictus2]

That’s not correct:

The Catholic Church has always held to the primacy of conscience and taught that individuals must follow their consciences even when they are wrong. (Vatican II, On Religious Liberty (1965), §2)

The Catholic Church has always held to the primacy of conscience and taught that individuals must follow their consciences even when they are wrong. (Vatican II, On Religious Liberty (1965), §2)

Did you actually read the rest of the article you linked to?

Here is the paragraph that follows your quote:

None the less it is important to understand the difference between conscience and personal preference or arbitrary private intuition (cf. Vatican II, The Church in the Modern World (1965), §30, on “wallowing in the luxury of a merely individualistic morality”).Conscience is the inner core of human beings whereby, compelled to seek the truth, they recognise the objective standards of moral conduct, indeed the dictates of God’s law, and make a practical judgment of what is to be done here and now in applying those standards (Rom 2:15-16; Vatican II, On Religious Liberty (1965), §§2,3; The Church in the Modern World (1965), §16). Thus the moral character of actions is determined by objective criteria, not merely by the sincerity of intentions or the goodness of motives, (Vatican II, The Church in the Modern World (1965), §51) and all people are called to form their
consciences accordingly.

And this:

How then do we form a right conscience? Catholics seek to inform their consciences according to reason and revelation as guided by Church teachings. They believe that by “their faith, aroused and sustained by the Spirit of truth, the People of God, guided by the sacred teaching authority (magisterium), and obeying it, receives not the mere word of human beings, but truly the word of God.” (Vatican II, The Church (1964), §12). It is to the pope and the bishops that this teaching authority is entrusted. As the Second Vatican Council put it: “in matters of faith and morals, the bishops speak in the name of Christ and the faithful, for their part, are obliged to accept their bishops’ teaching with a ready and respectful allegiance of mind” (The Church (1964), §25).

 

[Calliso]

How can they know that having babies would drive them nuts if they never had any babies?
Of course I’m not surprised at people’s rejection of children in our society. It’s hard to have it your way when you have kids. It means having to grow up… really. You can’t be self-indulgent and be a good parent.

I can only speak for myself but the rewards of being a parent far, far outweighed and continue to outweigh any sacrifices I had to make.

The same thing could be asked of people who say that they would love to have kids of their own and that it will be just great! How can they know for sure that having kids is what they want until they have kids? Especially since some people that have kids end up regretting having those kids. Just like some people regret that they didn;t have kids or didn;t have more.

But in general though I think people can get a pretty good idea of the likelyhood of them enjoying or not enjoying having kids. I mean if babies and kids in general drive you nuts sure maybe your own would be the exception to the rule but chances are pretty good that they wouldn;t be.

 

[Calliso]

Would you have any reasonable explanation as to why a couple who intends to have an “open marriage” can’t even marry in the first place? Or, in your opinion, would it be just as reasonable for such a couple to say that it is “dumb” to have a rule about fidelity?

Nobody wants such a couple to have to break up. We (I) would want them to get married! Not a marriage-as-we-want-to-make-it but a real marriage.

True but I think what she is saying is that ultimately for these couples it still comes down to that choice. Either you are open to life or you donlt get married. Which still leaves those that wish to remain childless but still have managed to find that special someone in a bad place. I mean it would be nice if everyone called to the marriage life was also fine with having kids and that everyone called to the single life was happy with not having kids but it doesn;t always work out that cleanly. Unfortunately though I do understand though that these rules aren;t going to change.

 

[Jaaanosik]

Did you actually read the rest of the article you linked to?

Here is the paragraph that follows your quote:

None the less it is important to understand the difference between conscience and personal preference or arbitrary private intuition (cf. Vatican II, The Church in the Modern World (1965), §30, on “wallowing in the luxury of a merely individualistic morality”).Conscience is the inner core of human beings whereby, compelled to seek the truth, they recognise the objective standards of moral conduct, indeed the dictates of God’s law, and make a practical judgment of what is to be done here and now in applying those standards (Rom 2:15-16; Vatican II, On Religious Liberty (1965), §§2,3; The Church in the Modern World (1965), §16). Thus the moral character of actions is determined by objective criteria, not merely by the sincerity of intentions or the goodness of motives, (Vatican II, The Church in the Modern World (1965), §51) and all people are called to form their
consciences accordingly.

And this:

How then do we form a right conscience? Catholics seek to inform their consciences according to reason and revelation as guided by Church teachings. They believe that by “their faith, aroused and sustained by the Spirit of truth, the People of God, guided by the sacred teaching authority (magisterium), and obeying it, receives not the mere word of human beings, but truly the word of God.” (Vatican II, The Church (1964), §12). It is to the pope and the bishops that this teaching authority is entrusted. As the Second Vatican Council put it: “in matters of faith and morals, the bishops speak in the name of Christ and the faithful, for their part, are obliged to accept their bishops’ teaching with a ready and respectful allegiance of mind” (The Church (1964), §25).

Church: " … you must follow your conscience … "

The same Church: “… you are obliged to listen to us …”

Church: " … you must follow your conscience … "

The same Church: “… you are obliged to listen to us …”

Church: " … you must follow your conscience … "

The same Church: “… you are obliged to listen to us …”

… and you go nuts.

Like a donkey who had two piles of carrots in front of him and didn’t know which to eat the first so died from starvation.

 

[PatriceA]

Church: " … you must follow your conscience … "

The same Church: “… you are obliged to listen to us …”

Church: " … you must follow your conscience … "

The same Church: “… you are obliged to listen to us …”

Church: " … you must follow your conscience … "

The same Church: “… you are obliged to listen to us …”

… and you go nuts.

Like a donkey who had two piles of carrots in front of him and didn’t know which to eat the first so died from starvation.

Unlike us humans, the donkey doesn’t have the capacity to continue to form his conscience through continued education, counsel and prayer. The Church isn’t asking you to blindly follow the teachings, but use your God given intelligence to seek out deeper meanings and efforts to properly form you conscious and wisdom.

 

[Corki]

Church: you must properly form your conscience using reason and authoritative teaching

Church: " … you must follow your conscience … "

The same Church: “… you are obliged to listen to us …”

Church: you must keep working on your conscience using reason and authoritative teaching, especially where you perceive conflicts.

Church: " … you must follow your conscience … "

The same Church: “… you are obliged to listen to us …”

Church: you must work on properly forming your conscience using reason and authoritative teaching as a life-long endeavor

Church: " … you must follow your conscience … "

The same Church: “… you are obliged to listen to us …”

There, I fixed it for you. No need to go nuts now.

 

[Jaaanosik]

There, I fixed it for you. No need to go nuts now.

Now there are three piles of carrots in front of me and I’ll go triple nuts.

 

[benedictus2]

Church: " … you must follow your conscience … "

The same Church: “… you are obliged to listen to us …”

Church: " … you must follow your conscience … "

The same Church: “… you are obliged to listen to us …”

Church: " … you must follow your conscience … "

The same Church: “… you are obliged to listen to us …”

… and you go nuts.

Like a donkey who had two piles of carrots in front of him and didn’t know which to eat the first so died from starvation.

Only if you are indeed a stupid donkey who can’t see that the two are related and inform on the other. If you want to exercise your human intellect then you will see that there is no discord.

If you want to be like a donkey that’s up to you.

 

[FCEGM]

Now there are three piles of carrots in front of me and I’ll go triple nuts.

A number of years before he was elected to the See of Rome, Pope Benedict (then Cdl. Ratzinger) made this presentation on conscience that would be a helpful read for you:

ewtn.com/library/curia/ratzcons.htm

 

[Jaaanosik]

Only if you are indeed a stupid donkey who can’t see that the two are related and inform on the other. If you want to exercise your human intellect then you will see that there is no discord.

If you want to be like a donkey that’s up to you.

As long as I am going to judged as one I am OK, right?

PS: Only I get to call myself a donkey if I want to. For you it’s inappropriate!!!

 

[benedictus2]

As long as I am going to judged as one I am OK, right?

PS: Only I get to call myself a donkey if I want to. For you it’s inappropriate!!!

So I am not allowed to agree with you?

 

[Jaaanosik]

So I am not allowed to agree with you?

If it makes you happy, enjoy.

When you say ‘there is no discord’ you mean I am supposed study Church’s teaching till I align my conscience according to it. Right?
Denying my own, condemning myself in the first place?
If your conscience tells you never question the Magisterium then you have to do it but if you think that there is no discord it does not mean everybody else has to have the same opinion.