Can a couple who don't want to have children get married under the grace of God?

[TheRealJuliane]

I’ve only read a few responses, and I’m late to reply, but if you end up reading this:

Are you sure your hesitance towards children is not being fed from our Malthusian, Anti-Natal society and media? I can only speak from my own experience, but before I had my child (unplanned pregnancy, wasn’t going to keep him, God intervened, long irrelevant story) I was the sort of person who was proud of the fact that the sound of laughing children on the playground made me twitch. I thought I was being funny, going against what I was supposed to be (i.e. enjoy children and happiness). Sort of like a “oh aren’t I a unique misfit. I’m hopeless. Look at me, how I broke the mold, aren’t I special?” mentality.

It makes me smile now.

The greatest thing that comes from parenthood is not the love that you get from your child. It’s not. Although that’s irreplaceable, the greatest thing about parenthood is the insight God grants you. YOU ARE HIS CHILD. It’s very difficult as a child to understand a parent’s love. Your perspective is scewed. But as a parent you look at your little two year old, so frustrated and angry because the wooden train tracks in his play set won’t match up and all you can do is laugh. You help him, of course, and you calm him down but you just can’t help melting at how cute he is, and and how far you’ve both come from the ugly little wrinkly pest screaming and the wide eyed “what the hell have I gotten myself into” zombie duo.

The treasure of parenthood is the window into how God sees you. As fully grown and intelligent and cultured and talented and developed as you are, you’re just a toddler, shoes untied, hair messy, face grubby, compared to everything you will be. And the huge mountainous trials you face are no more than a matter of linking wooden toy tracks together.

This perspective, (though I’m not at all doing it any justice here) as well as the discovery of who you truly are, beyond the “I’d rather BE a child than HAVE a child” mentality we’re all poisoned with today, make it all worth it. (Although as a side note, you realize your “look at me” mentality is cute to God. Kind of like when your two year old discovers he can make faces and get a reaction out of you so he keeps doing it to get attention and it’s old but the fact that he wants attention from you - and the realization that this pattern of behavior will continue and get more complex as he ages - is adorable.) There’s also an indescribable feeling when you give yourself away entirely to another human from whom you will receive nothing in return. Marriage is a good start, it touches on this selflessness briefly, but it doesn’t come close to parenthood.

Sorry if this was long, and if you never read it, (how many pages is this post up to now?) then oh well, but I thought I’d add my two cents. As someone who was once mortified by the idea of being a parent, speaking from the next chapter, it’s a lot better than it’s looks.
Give yourself time, give God yourself, never cease praying and see how he intends for things to work out.

Hope this helped,
God Bless.

.

:clapping::clapping::clapping::yup:

Well you’re slightly late to the thread but you added something invaluable to it. Thanks for contributing and bringing the discussion back to the subject.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Thank you for responding, sally. I’m very happy that motherhood was worked out so well for you.

Some parts of your post reminds me of the way I feel about my dog hehe. People have scoffed at me for saying that the love of/for a dog could come close to the love of/for a child, but then I read posts like yours and I’m like dude, it’s really similar! Especially the bolded part. She just so happened to be a little, ugly, and wrinkly dog, and so cute that she made my heart melt. (Your wording just struck me as very appropriate.)

It is hard to imagine loving anyone as much as her. I have a feeling a child would just be a huge disappointment in comparison.

Yeah, but you didn’t help create that dog, nor did you carry her in your body for 9 mos., nor push her out into the world when it was time for her to breathe air. That’s the minimum of the first tiny little part of what motherhood entails. From the MINUTE I knew I was pregnant, my whole life changed. I had no idea that it would, and wasn’t sure I even wanted it to, but it did. For the first time in my life, I was more concerned for the welfare of another person, however small, than for my own. I was panicked when I got such bad nausea that just thinking of food made me want to wretch. I knew that the baby was developing and I worried that he/she would not get enough nutrition, because I had been a haphazard vegetarian for years before that and had never paid much attention to my diet. I went and saw a dietitian to help me find foods I could eat that would ensure a healthy child. I started eating meat again! All for the baby’s welfare, not my own. I put any of my own needs/beliefs aside. And that’s just the barest beginning of what a parent will do for her/his child.

I know you love your dog, that’s obvious. Imagine that love, multiplied by a million. You can’t understand it until you experience it. I hope you experience it.

 

[TotusTuus2010]

I am talking known to be infertile - such as organs physically missing. Please don’t distract from the point I’m making.

So, if you are known to be infertile you should not be permitted to marry? Is that what you are suggesting?

 

[NightHawk2005]

Fair enough. Not very noteworthy you’re saying.

Yet it was noteworthy enough for you to post it here.

What’s your point? You call yourself “a curse” at least 3 times a week and people have gotten into a fight with you about this. Why is this important to know in the context of this thread?

If you read the thread, you would have your answer.

 

[Le_Cracquere]

Why do you think that the above statement of benedictus2 doesn’t reflect the Church’s teaching on Original Sin?

I don’t suppose it contradicts the doctrine, as such. But my earlier statements about lifelong striving towards holiness, struggling with one’s inborn nature, etc., are pretty unremarkable in light of that doctrine. For someone who’s actually heard of the doctrine to interpret my statements as “God creates human beings bad” or “God is the author of evil” is highly odd, bordering on perverse. Someone appears to have been sick the day it was discussed, Q.E.D.

 

[chemoangel]

Me and my husband have been married 15 years and we don’t have any children by choice. This is not to say that we are kid ogres, we simply do not want any of our own.

 

[sallysinglemom]

It is hard to imagine loving anyone as much as her. I have a feeling a child would just be a huge disappointment in comparison.

I don’t understand your logic here. You’re capable of love and nurturing, and of receiving love, but only in regards to a creature of another species? Why not your own as well? Can children not love as a dog loves? Perhaps you have been disappointed by humans that you know. Humans are trainable, particularly young ones. Would you not be capable of instilling those qualities that God has used your dogs to show you are wonderful into a human? Would that not benefit society?

The way I see it is that dogs and children can love on the same level, and someone as caring as you can certainly love a dog on the same level as a child, but the great difference is this: children grow. They leave, they become autonomous. Every drop of love you’ve poured into them will affect how they interact in the world, what they do for it, what they add to it. To my understanding, dogs do not do this. They can love you. They can comfort you. They can be there for you, they can pull you through.

But they can’t donate to charity. They cannot serve at a soup kitchen. They do not become activists for the voiceless and defenseless. They cannot create an organization to send shoes to needy children in Africa, or develop vaccines. They cannot feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, clothe the naked. If you are content with a love that is unconditionally there for you, how could one that is so and can do all of these things in addition, disappoint? Humanity has caused a lot of problems, but humanity is capable of solving a lot of problems as well. If they are allowed into the world in the first place and if they are taught to do so with proper instruction.

I read a few of your early responses, and you seem like a very rational, loving person. If God chooses to work out your medical problems, or if you end up one day choosing to adopt or become a foster parent, you’d make an excellent mother. I can only humbly offer these words, take them as you will, but please keep an open heart.

Peace,
Sally

 

[sallysinglemom]

Yeah, but you didn’t help create that dog, nor did you carry her in your body for 9 mos., nor push her out into the world when it was time for her to breathe air. That’s the minimum of the first tiny little part of what motherhood entails. From the MINUTE I knew I was pregnant, my whole life changed. I had no idea that it would, and wasn’t sure I even wanted it to, but it did. For the first time in my life, I was more concerned for the welfare of another person, however small, than for my own. I was panicked when I got such bad nausea that just thinking of food made me want to wretch. I knew that the baby was developing and I worried that he/she would not get enough nutrition, because I had been a haphazard vegetarian for years before that and had never paid much attention to my diet. I went and saw a dietitian to help me find foods I could eat that would ensure a healthy child. I started eating meat again! All for the baby’s welfare, not my own. I put any of my own needs/beliefs aside. And that’s just the barest beginning of what a parent will do for her/his child.

I know you love your dog, that’s obvious. Imagine that love, multiplied by a million. You can’t understand it until you experience it. I hope you experience it.

Beautiful. What is love but self sacrifice?

 

[benedictus2]

I call myself a curse at least three times a week. I’ve gotten into a few fights over that one.

Then that is indeed sad.
I don’t know what has happened to you for you to think that way but there is no hurt that God cannot heal.
The Eucharist is the source of all our healing. Pray that God will enlighten you and show you the beautiful creation that you are that you may see the world through God’s eyes and see that every person is created in His image even though marred by sin.
In a world gone wrong this is not easy, but this is precisely why Christ came. To show us the way God loves and to teach us to live in love in the same way.

 

[benedictus2]

Human nature, even in the worst examples, is multivalent. Every man’s heart has its “better angels,” however outnumbered. People work at being better all the time.

But doesn’t that just prove your point totally idiotic? If there are no children then there would be no people working towards becoming better persons.

More to the point, there are a lot of people who were good when they were children but became worse when they grew up!

So again, if we all start up bad and supernaturally vicious, where would the impetus to be better persons come from? If we are rotten to the core, then we are rotten to the core so where is this seed of goodness coming from such that one can desire to be better.

All right: this is the equivalent of an enormously slow, fat pitch with zero motion in the dead middle of the strike zone. And frankly, I’m just not cruel enough to swing at it for all it’s worth. My Catholic friends, if any of you are involved in catechesis at your local church, could you make sure that folks under your guidance leave at least vaguely conversant with the doctrine of Original Sin? You might save them some embarrassment.

Well, I must admit that that was a stupid statement on my part, I should have said: “Of course you will say God creates human beings bad. After all you are Protestant.” But then I suppose I was operating under the impression that all Christians believe in a good God.

Your postion is of course most irrational. If God creates human beings bad then you are saying that God is the author of evil. And sorry, No, the doctrine of Original Sin does not get you out of your concept of a God who creates evil.

Just think, if God created you bad then you are not responsible for the bad things you did. So if you end up in hell, that would be God being totally unjust sending you there because after all he created you bad. So your protestant faith have – in one fell swoop – created a God who is not only unjust but is also the author of all evil in the world. Therefore God, according to you is evil.

Where does man’s movement towards the good come from then, considering that the Author of all now seems to be totally evil as well.
This is of course is all due to your deeply flawed understanding of Original Sin.

So No, it is not me who does not know the doctrine of Original Sin it is you. Read more beyond the utterly deficient exposition of Christian doctrine going by the name of Protestant theology.

 

[benedictus2]

I’ve only read a few responses, and I’m late to reply, but if you end up reading this:

Are you sure your hesitance towards children is not being fed from our Malthusian, Anti-Natal society and media? I can only speak from my own experience, but before I had my child (unplanned pregnancy, wasn’t going to keep him, God intervened, long irrelevant story) I was the sort of person who was proud of the fact that the sound of laughing children on the playground made me twitch. I thought I was being funny, going against what I was supposed to be (i.e. enjoy children and happiness). Sort of like a “oh aren’t I a unique misfit. I’m hopeless. Look at me, how I broke the mold, aren’t I special?” mentality.

It makes me smile now.

The greatest thing that comes from parenthood is not the love that you get from your child. It’s not. Although that’s irreplaceable, the greatest thing about parenthood is the insight God grants you. YOU ARE HIS CHILD. It’s very difficult as a child to understand a parent’s love. Your perspective is scewed. But as a parent you look at your little two year old, so frustrated and angry because the wooden train tracks in his play set won’t match up and all you can do is laugh. You help him, of course, and you calm him down but you just can’t help melting at how cute he is, and and how far you’ve both come from the ugly little wrinkly pest screaming and the wide eyed “what the hell have I gotten myself into” zombie duo.

The treasure of parenthood is the window into how God sees you. As fully grown and intelligent and cultured and talented and developed as you are, you’re just a toddler, shoes untied, hair messy, face grubby, compared to everything you will be. And the huge mountainous trials you face are no more than a matter of linking wooden toy tracks together.

This perspective, (though I’m not at all doing it any justice here) as well as the discovery of who you truly are, beyond the “I’d rather BE a child than HAVE a child” mentality we’re all poisoned with today, make it all worth it. (Although as a side note, you realize your “look at me” mentality is cute to God. Kind of like when your two year old discovers he can make faces and get a reaction out of you so he keeps doing it to get attention and it’s old but the fact that he wants attention from you - and the realization that this pattern of behavior will continue and get more complex as he ages - is adorable.) There’s also an indescribable feeling when you give yourself away entirely to another human from whom you will receive nothing in return. Marriage is a good start, it touches on this selflessness briefly, but it doesn’t come close to parenthood.

Sorry if this was long, and if you never read it, (how many pages is this post up to now?) then oh well, but I thought I’d add my two cents. As someone who was once mortified by the idea of being a parent, speaking from the next chapter, it’s a lot better than it’s looks.
Give yourself time, give God yourself, never cease praying and see how he intends for things to work out.

Hope this helped,
God Bless.

.

Thagt is truly beautiful!

However, I think that perspective is only truly possible from a Judeo-Christian point of view.

If one were atheist and were convicted of the atheistic view, then one would probably think why would I give rise to another higher version of the amoeba? For in a world without God, what makes us special? The same process that coughed up the amoeba coughed us up. Birth would be a matter of bringing another meaningless accident into this world. The same meaningless accident that one is.

But then again, deep in one’s being one knows that this is not so. One knows that he/she matters. So the atheist is reduced to hypocrisy - professing one thing and yet living another.

 

[NightHawk2005]

Then that is indeed sad.
I don’t know what has happened to you for you to think that way but there is no hurt that God cannot heal.
The Eucharist is the source of all our healing. Pray that God will enlighten you and show you the beautiful creation that you are that you may see the world through God’s eyes and see that every person is created in His image even though marred by sin.
In a world gone wrong this is not easy, but this is precisely why Christ came. To show us the way God loves and to teach us to live in love in the same way.

I don’t see anything sad at all. Nothing’s happened to me, nothing’s hurt. I am quite happy with my life as it is.

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t see anything sad at all. Nothing’s happened to me, nothing’s hurt. I am quite happy with my life as it is.

How can you be happy seeing yourself as a curse?

 

[mro]

My Mom is a Quaker and My Dad Greek Melkite Catholic… My Dad told the Church to take a hike when it came to marriage…

She and He got married before a judge and they didn’t plan on having children either… But then I came along (it was an accident since my dad wouldn’t let my mom take birth control)… Now they practice NFP and have all the sex they want (at the appropriate time)…

If a couple (as long as they’re a man and woman LOL) want to get married and no have children let them… It’s called civil marriage… My parents did it…

 

[Le_Cracquere]

But doesn’t that just prove your point totally idiotic? If there are no children then there would be no people working towards becoming better persons.

You seem to be under the impression that I said children oughtn’t to exist, or something to that effect. Such a sentiment would be idiotic (and make your job easy indeed), but I didn’t say or imply any such thing.

More to the point, there are a lot of people who were good when they were children but became worse {SNIPPAGE} If we are rotten to the core, then we are rotten to the core {SNIPPAGE} “Of course you will say God creates human beings bad. After all you are Protestant.” But then I suppose I was operating under the impression that all Christians believe in a good God. {SNIP SNIP SNIPPETY SNIP}

Last I checked, there were at least a few Calvinists on this forum: if you’d like to have a polemic on Calvinism, you can probably track them down–be my guest. God only knows what you think the subject has to do with me, or with anything I said.

 

[Trishie]

If a couple (as long as they’re a man and woman LOL) want to get married and no have children let them… It’s called civil marriage…

This is not good advice to Catholics on a Catholic forum.
If a Catholic marries outside the Church in a civil marriage without special dispensation then it is not a valid marriage.

 

[benedictus2]

How can you be happy seeing yourself as a curse?

Yeah. What sort of person is happy believing that he is a curse?

 

[benedictus2]

You seem to be under the impression that I said children oughtn’t to exist, or something to that effect. Such a sentiment would be idiotic (and make your job easy indeed), but I didn’t say or imply any such thing.

Okay.

Last I checked, there were at least a few Calvinists on this forum: if you’d like to have a polemic on Calvinism, you can probably track them down–be my guest. God only knows what you think the subject has to do with me, or with anything I said.

How about because you brought it up with the statement: Children are supernaturally vicious.

So if we started out supernaturally vicious then that means God created us supernaturally vicious i.e.

To which you replied
" My Catholic friends, if any of you are involved in catechesis at your local church, could you make sure that folks under your guidance leave at least vaguely conversant with the doctrine of Original Sin? You might save them some embarrassment. "

So therefore you think because of Original Sin God created us bad? So if we are so bad because of Original sin, I ask again, where is the impetus to become a better person coming from. If we are totally corrupt then how can we even want to be a better person?

And you still haven’t accounted for the reality that some start out good and become worse.

Your understanding of original sin is indeed very protestant - God creates us totally corrupt.

 

[benedictus2]

I don’t see anything sad at all. Nothing’s happened to me, nothing’s hurt. I am quite happy with my life as it is.

Let’s suppose you find a most wonderful woman - beautiful, intelligent, gentle and good. You are in love with this woman. Based on what you have written, she is a curse too.

 

[Le_Cracquere]

How about because you brought it up with the statement: Children are supernaturally vicious.

I went back to my original post to check your reference, and found that I had written that they strike me as “almost supernaturally vicious.” Now, you’re free to find that hyperbolic or intemperate, but I don’t think most people would interpret that as taking a theological position.