Can a non-believer be closer to God than a Christian?

[JRKH]

And yet God is supposed to be perfectly just.

Yes - and he is perfectly Just…For He does not stand on legalities…Which is what is often presented - and which you present below - as a very common argument against God.
However - the determining factor is not what one has done but what exists within the heart.

Consider - a convinced atheist who spent her life helping others, contributing to charitable endeavours, doing her best to make others’ lives better and happier, would be sent to hell for lack of belief.

She might be sent to hell - she might not. We cannot know for in the above you have not provided the essential facts of why she has done these things. Jesus addresses this somewhat in speaking of the hypocrisy of the Pharisees and the rich who make a big show of their piety but are corrupt inside. Likewise He speaks of the need for doing good deeds in secret - not for others to see or know about. In other words, the desire, the need, the drive to do these things must come from the heart and not from any selfish desire for notoriety, fame, and/or possibly financial benefit.

The second critical factor not addressed in the above is why she is a convinced atheist. Has she truly investigated the concept? What exposure has she had to various belief systems? What life experiences closed her heart to further investigation?
I fear that many who reject the concept of God do so for poor reasons - or reject, not so much God Himself, as they reject some distorted idea of God that they have developed through their life experiences.

So - we need to know - not what the person has done…but why they did it.
Giving your atheist above the benefit of all doubt - As I am sure you are trying to project - then she has done these things out of a driving need to Love her fellow man to the best of her ability. This Love and compassion has nothing to do with notoriety of any kind - even if such notoriety occasionally comes to her. When pressed - she can’t even explain why she is so passionate about these things. She just knows that she is…that she must help out of the abundance of love in her.

In such a case…this person knows God without knowing it. We are told in 1 John 4:7-8 that he who loves is born of God and knows God for God is Love. The Catechism speaks to those who , through no fault of their own have not heard (and there can be various levels of “not heard”) the Gospel yet seek after God as their conscience dictates - “those too may achieve eternal salvation” (CCC 847).

When this person who has pursued and displayed “Agape Love” all her life dies and stands before Him who IS Love she will immediately recognize and embrace that which she has sought in life and there can be no condemnation where Love prevails.

But a psychotic serial killer who spent his life murdering, raping, torturing and generally making life miserable and horrifying for others, would only have to convert and repent on his deathbed and then could ultimately spend eternity in paradise, perhaps after a token period of ‘cleansing’ in purgatory, if the Church even endorses that particular article of faith these days.

The pivotal and most telling part of the above is, “would only have to convert…”.
That word “only” demonstrates a poor understanding of what repentance and conversion actually mean in such a situation.
As with the atheist above - you have presented many acts but no real substance - as it pertains to what is necessary to actual salvation. Again - this is a common fault in these arguments.
Repentance and conversion are not just things said…they are deep, life changing, gut wrenching, self convicting things. The likelihood of a the person you describe above being able to overcome a lifetime of “training” in selfish and evil belief and pursuits and having a real and life altering deathbed conversion is highly unlikely. I don’t say it is impossible…but I do say such deathbed conversions are unlikely. True conversion is just too hard.

That said…And allowing for this person to have a true conversion…When THIS person stands before God…He does so in full and firm and complete conviction of his crimes and his complete unworthiness. Having at last rejected his former self, but not being perfected in love, he casts himself before God’s mercy ready and willing to accept any judgement that God gives…Even damnation…for this person knows that damnation is what they deserve.
Such a one…fully convicted…fully repentant…deeply converted and sorrowful…would still not be able to simply rise into heaven but would need to undergo a purgation of all the evil that they did not purge from themselves in life. Such a person would be saved…“but as through fire” (1 Cor 3:15)…the fire of the purgation (purgatory) by which he will be purified.

This is God’s ‘justice’, apparently - so why would any sane person invest in faith in such a god?

I fully agree that if God’s Justice were as shallow and legalistic as you suggested he would be a poor God indeed. I would be hard pressed to worship such a god myself.

That said - I hope that my explanations above will help you recognize that the God we worship is not the god that you describe…but rather that His justice and His mercy are entirely real correct and profound.

Peace
James

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Sair

**Consider - a convinced atheist who spent her life helping others, contributing to charitable endeavours, doing her best to make others’ lives better and happier, would be sent to hell for lack of belief. But a psychotic serial killer who spent his life murdering, raping, torturing and generally making life miserable and horrifying for others, would only have to convert and repent on his deathbed and then could ultimately spend eternity in paradise, perhaps after a token period of ‘cleansing’ in purgatory, if the Church even endorses that particular article of faith these days.

This is God’s ‘justice’, apparently - so why would any sane person invest in faith in such a god?**

Flawed reasoning here. God gives the repentant atheist the same mercy he gives a repentant psychotic serial killer. He also gives both the same justice they deserve.

In the case of the unrepentant atheist, God gives him what he has bargained for and insisted on … eternal separation from God.

**I think anyone who could say, with absolute conviction, that there is a god, would be certifiable… **

so Jesus was insane?

 

[iloveangels]

James - you hit it right on the head in my opinion. After I proposed the question, I realized I asked the question backwards. The question is better asked the way you put it -“Can God be closer to an Atheist than to a Christian?” - that is if the standard by which you measure is LOVE. All human beings have the capacity to love whether they are Christian or not.

Merely loving someone does not make a person close to God or Christian.

To think so is a dramatic reduction from the actual truth of how faith works. It’s much more than that.

 

[iloveangels]

The atheist who dies an atheist has no chance at salvation. The Christian, even if he is more full of sin than an atheist, at least has a shot at reconciliation and redemption.

“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; he who does not believe will be condemned.” Mark 16:16

They both have a shot at it if they repent of their sins, acknowledge God and seek out help.

 

[JRKH]

Merely loving someone does not make a person close to God or Christian.

To think so is a dramatic reduction from the actual truth of how faith works. It’s much more than that.

Why do you place “merely” in front of Love when those you are quoting did not? If there is a “dramatic reduction” from actual truth - it begins here - in taking Love and making it “merely love”…

Jesus did not have any such reduction in mind when He said the greatest commandments are the commands to Love.
It is upon these that all of the Law and prophets rely (Mt 22:36-40).
And the one who understands this is “not far from the kingdom” (Mark 12:28-34)
Jesus further says that the world will know that we are his disciples, not by our faith - though faith is certainly necessary - but rather by our Love. (John 13:34-37)

St Paul places Love as the greatest of the virtues…and without it we are nothing. (1 Cor 13:1-13)
St John declares most clearly and sincerely that he who loves is born of God and knows God…for God is Love. (1 John 4:7-8)

Of course no one here is talking about “merely love” and I am sorry that you somehow got that impression. We are not talking about “eros” or “filia” - but rather “Agape” Love - deep abiding sacrificial Love.

Hope this clears things up

Peace
James

 

[Lets_Evolve]

Hitler was a Catholic Christian. So a special case of the original question is: Can an atheist be closer to God than Hitler? Well, in terms of being closer to God by doing God’s will, I think the answer to that is yes, which settles the original question as well.

I like how you put atheism and hilter in the same statement brewing some connection between the two.

What needs to be said is being “atheist” is just saying I do not believe what you believe. I am No more atheist about Jesus than I am about Thor or Ra. I believe it is possible to experience the divine but I do not require a creator.

 

[atheistgirl]

And yet God is supposed to be perfectly just.

Consider - a convinced atheist who spent her life helping others, contributing to charitable endeavours, doing her best to make others’ lives better and happier, would be sent to hell for lack of belief. But a psychotic serial killer who spent his life murdering, raping, torturing and generally making life miserable and horrifying for others, would only have to convert and repent on his deathbed and then could ultimately spend eternity in paradise, perhaps after a token period of ‘cleansing’ in purgatory, if the Church even endorses that particular article of faith these days.

This is God’s ‘justice’, apparently - so why would any sane person invest in faith in such a god?

I can not get my head around this mentality.

Sarah x

 

[JRKH]

I can not get my head around this mentality.

Sarah x

I take it that my response to Sair’s post was not helpful to you…

Peace
James

 

[iloveangels]

I can not get my head around this mentality.

Sarah x

There are no guarantees that this is exactly how it would turn out, textbook-style, like this. Only God knows what’s really in a person’s heart and soul.

In addition, being an obstinate atheist is a great sin. It’s possible that it can outweigh many “good things” done for reasons unknown (pride, industry, altruism, personality, money, etc etc, many are possible). Only God knows how to evaluate that in the end.

It’s also a great sin to take a perfectly good baptism and Catholic upbringing and bring it to nothing by acting like a rat. Only God knows how to evaluate that in the end, too.

Luckily, things are almost always less extreme than this, in either direction.

 

[atheistgirl]

I take it that my response to Sair’s post was not helpful to you…

Peace
James

I hadn’t read it at that stage

Yes, it was interesting, as all your posts are: very informative and always delivered in a very caring and charitable manner. I always get the impression from your posts you so genuinely want to help and enlighten. I think you’re a great apologist for your faith.

But it comes down to what’s been said to me before, which is basically, what little good I do in this life, I can only do, because of God through me, even if I don’t recognize or know that fact and what bad I do, I do, because I’m a wicked sinner

Perhaps, when I die, like you said, if I meet God, I’ll recognize Him as love, and what little love and good I’ve been able to spread here, will make sense as to why I felt driven that way.

Who knows

But what if He says, well, you met JRKH, he told it to you straight, and you chose not to believe him - now you’re in BIG trouble girlfriend!!!



Sarah x

 

[JRKH]

I hadn’t read it at that stage

Yes, it was interesting, as all your posts are: very informative and always delivered in a very caring and charitable manner. I always get the impression from your posts you so genuinely want to help and enlighten. I think you’re a great apologist for your faith.

But it comes down to what’s been said to me before, which is basically, what little good I do in this life, I can only do, because of God through me, even if I don’t recognize or know that fact and what bad I do, I do, because I’m a wicked sinner

Thank you for your kind words AG.
Yes I understand your problem here…And this is why the Church has said that one must not go against their conscience in these matters.
Often times, in trying to answer a question, someone is only able to give a slightest taste of something that has been explored, debated, discussed, prayed over and evolved into a given understanding. Unfortunately that “taste” may sound different to the hearer than intended…
Also it sometimes happens that the people who answer either don’t have a deep understanding, or simply have a very simplistic approach and that shows in their answers.

I do hope you will continue investigating.

Perhaps, when I die, like you said, if I meet God, I’ll recognize Him as love, and what little love and good I’ve been able to spread here, will make sense as to why I felt driven that way.

I hope so - Keep pursuing Agape…What can yo lose?

Who knows

God does.

But what if He says, well, you met JRKH, he told it to you straight, and you chose not to believe him - now you’re in BIG trouble girlfriend!!!

Well - I guess at that point you have two choices…

1. You can say - “Hey you big overgrown bully - what gives YOU the right to…” :hey_bud:

OR

1. You can say - “Dear Lord Have mercy on me a miserable sinner…”:bighanky:

I think we can both guess which has the better chance of a good outcome…

Peace
James

 

[cornbread_r2]

…]

The pivotal and most telling part of the above is, “would only have to convert…”.
That word “only” demonstrates a poor understanding of what repentance and conversion actually mean in such a situation.
As with the atheist above - you have presented many acts but no real substance - as it pertains to what is necessary to actual salvation. Again - this is a common fault in these arguments.
Repentance and conversion are not just things said…they are deep, life changing, gut wrenching, self convicting things. The likelihood of a the person you describe above being able to overcome a lifetime of “training” in selfish and evil belief and pursuits and having a real and life altering deathbed conversion is highly unlikely. I don’t say it is impossible…but I do say such deathbed conversions are unlikely. True conversion is just too hard.

That said…And allowing for this person to have a true conversion…When THIS person stands before God…He does so in full and firm and complete conviction of his crimes and his complete unworthiness. Having at last rejected his former self, but not being perfected in love, he casts himself before God’s mercy ready and willing to accept any judgement that God gives…Even damnation…for this person knows that damnation is what they deserve.
Such a one…fully convicted…fully repentant…deeply converted and sorrowful…would still not be able to simply rise into heaven but would need to undergo a purgation of all the evil that they did not purge from themselves in life. Such a person would be saved…“but as through fire” (1 Cor 3:15)…the fire of the purgation (purgatory) by which he will be purified.

…]

Peace
James

How much of the above, if any, applies to a life-long sociopath who is baptized on his/her death bed? Does the sociopath even need to request baptism or be conscious of its administration?

 

[TimeEntrance]

There are some–a minority of–atheists that are such good humans that I find it hard to believe they won’t go to heaven.

 

[Trunicate09]

No.

 

[CaptFun]

No.

This post has been awarded the “Most Literal Follower of Jesus’ Words” Award *

Matthew 5:24 Let your ‘Yes’ mean ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No’ mean ‘No.’ Anything more is from the evil one.

SHAME … on the rest of us!

• However continued literal application of this method can severely inhibit discussion on these threads.

 

[JRKH]

How much of the above, if any, applies to a life-long sociopath who is baptized on his/her death bed?

It would apply equally. Why would it not?

Does the sociopath even need to request baptism or be conscious of its administration?

The issue of baptism being issued to a person who is unaware is a tricky one and we could spend much time exploring the different avenues. In the case of an infant, it naturally removes original sin…In the case of adults, the same is certainly true, but the question then is can an “unrequested baptism” also remove the consequences of personal sin…since the person (so far as we know) has not repented of the sin?

In my very humble opinion - If a sociopath were unconscious nearing death, unable to request baptism, and another took it upon themselves to baptism them…the effect would be roughly the same as that of an infant. It would remove the stain of original sin. As to personal sin - any effects would be the result of the intentions of the person baptizing and roughly equal to that person “praying for the dead” as it were.
I say this because as a “life long” sociopath - this person (we assume) had ample opportunity to repent and be baptized but did not. Therefore it is not the sociopath’s Agape but the Agape of the one baptizing that is pleasing to God.

As I said earlier, we could spend much time exploring different avenues of these things - like the person’s culpability, depending on the reason(s) for his sociopathic behaviors and/or the true nature of any conversion/regret/sorrow that s/he carries forward to judgement. So many different paths and possibilities - rabbit trails as we sometimes call them - keep springing to my mind as I compose this.

All we can say is that all will be laid bare at judgement and God will act with proper justice.

Hope this helps.

Peace
James

 

[Charlemagne_II]

atheistgirl

I can not get my head around this mentality.

It’s really very simple. I’m surprised you haven’t figured it out.

If the atheist wants nothing to do with God, it doesn’t matter how nominally good the atheist is, God will not impose His presence on the atheist. As an atheist you have no legitimate complaint.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

TimeEntrance
**
There are some–a minority of–atheists that are such good humans that I find it hard to believe they won’t go to heaven. **

This is a flawed notion of what constitutes goodness.

How good can an atheist be who wants nothing to do with God?

Do you not remember the first Commandment? It’s first for a reason.

Psalm 14 of David

“The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.”

My guess would be that the atheist do-gooders you have observed are going to repent for their unbelief on their deathbeds. That is when many Christians are also saved.

 

[atheistgirl]

As an atheist you have no legitimate complaint.

I’m not complaining

I’m perfectly happy to live as good a life as I can, then die.

I honestly believe when I die, that’s it. No afterlife, no reward or punishment.

I’ll get recycled and that tree I mentioned that I’ll feed will be all the better for me having lived, and my children, grandchildren and great grandchildren will sit under that tree in the shade, and tell their stories.

I’ll live on in them and I could ask for no more.

Now, if it doesn’t work out like that, and I do indeed come before God, well, I have nothing to fear.

I’m being sincere here.

I have absolutely nothing to fear.

I’ll have lived my life doing as much good, having as much fun and doing as little harm as I possibly could.

It will have been a matter of integrity that I remained unconvinced of the existence of any Deity.

I’ll argue my case in Court on the day

Sarah x

 

[Charlemagne_II]

atheistgirl

It will have been a matter of integrity that I remained unconvinced of the existence of any Deity.

If God truly exists, you will not be able to say that you exercised integrity in denying Him.

What you might be unhappy to have to admit, is that you deceived yourself about the non-existence of the Creator. There is no integrity in self-deception.