Can a non-believer be closer to God than a Christian?

[Bradski]

That won’t save you if there is a God. You should have given God the benefit of your doubts, for the simple reason there is no way to convince yourself there is no God … no evidence whatever … only your desire not to believe in God.

Atheist Girl dies and because she has lived her life honestly, she’s granted eternal life. I’ve taken Charle’s advice and have committed myself entirely to God. She meets me and Charles when we die and says she’s sorry, but we can’t come in. What the …? We’ve praised God every waking moment. We have submitted to His will. We are True Christians and we are throwing ourselves at His mercy.

‘Sorry’, she says. ‘There is a God. But not the one you picked’.

Charles runs off into the distance. I’m in no hurry. I’ll catch up with him later for a little chat…

 

[atheistgirl]

Atheist Girl dies and because she has lived her life honestly, she’s granted eternal life. I’ve taken Charle’s advice and have committed myself entirely to God. She meets me and Charles when we die and says she’s sorry, but we can’t come in. What the …? We’ve praised God every waking moment. We have submitted to His will. We are True Christians and we are throwing ourselves at His mercy.

‘Sorry’, she says. ‘There is a God. But not the one you picked’.

Charles runs off into the distance. I’m in no hurry. I’ll catch up with him later for a little chat…

Sarah x

 

[cornbread_r2]

Fair enough - thanks for the clean example…

However I’m afraid that you make the same error as the earlier poster…you say “simply convert” as though this is an easy thing to do.
I don’t mean to contradict what you are saying above…but I think that we need to be careful not to give the impression that such a “last minute reprieve” is an easy thing to accomplish.

The Bible says “repent and be baptized”. Repentance is a crucial factor and nowhere do you mention repentance above. Simply asking for receiving baptism because one fears and wishes to avoid hell - but without the prerequisite repentance is simply a continuation of the lifelong self-centeredness that is a hallmark of the sociopath. As such - without true repentance, baptism can do nothing to save the person.

In short, It’s not the rite of baptism alone that will settle the matter in this person’s favor, but more importantly it is the the sincerity and contrition and repentance (the baptism of desire) that precedes the request to be baptized.

I haven’t found any indication that any repentance associated with baptism be more than what would be sufficient for a valid confession, i.e. imperfect contrition or attrition.

From the CCC:

1453 The contrition called “imperfect” (or “attrition”) is also a gift of God, a prompting of the Holy Spirit. It is born of the consideration of sin’s ugliness or the fear of eternal damnation and the other penalties threatening the sinner (contrition of fear). Such a stirring of conscience can initiate an interior process which, under the prompting of grace, will be brought to completion by sacramental absolution. By itself however, imperfect contrition cannot obtain the forgiveness of grave sins, but it disposes one to obtain forgiveness in the sacrament of Penance.

After that - Whether a person will still be required to undergo purgation - I leave that up to God.

Peace
James

Church doctrine seems definitive that baptism remits all temporal punishment for past sins.

From the CCC:

*2520 Baptism confers on its recipient the grace of purification from all sins. …]

1265 Baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also makes the neophyte “a new creature,” an adopted son of God, who has become a “partaker of the divine nature,” member of Christ and co-heir with him, and a temple of the Holy Spirit.*

From the Catholic Encyclopedia

Baptism not only washes away sin, it also remits the punishment of sin. This was the plain teaching of the primitive Church. We read in Clement of Alexandria (Pædagog., i) of baptism: “It is called a washing because we are washed from our sins: it is called grace, because by it the punishments which are due to sin are remitted.” St. Jerome (Ep. lxix) writes: “After the pardon (indulgentiam) of baptism, the severity of the Judge is not to be feared.” And St. Augustine (De Pecc. et Mer., II, xxviii) says plainly: “If immediately [after baptism] there follows the departure from this life, there will be absolutely nothing that a man must answer for [quod obnoxium hominem teneat], for he will have been freed from everything that bound him.” In perfect accord with the early doctrine, the Florentine decree states: “No satisfaction is to be enjoined upon the baptized for past sins; and if they die before any sin, they will immediately attain to the kingdom of heaven and to the vision of God.” In like manner the Council of Trent (Sess. V) teaches: “There is no cause of damnation in those who have been truly buried with Christ by baptism . . . Nothing whatever will delay their entrance into heaven.”

 

[JRKH]

I haven’t found any indication that any repentance associated with baptism be more than what would be sufficient for a valid confession, i.e. imperfect contrition or attrition.

I am in agreement with this…But therein lies the rub…
In your earlier post you made no mention of repentance or contrition, only fear and fear can have a number of things prompting it.

That said, the information you provided makes it clear that if the contrition is sincere, even if imperfect, then the person will be saved. As to any particulars arising from any given individual case…as always I leave that up to God.

Peace
James

 

[cornbread_r2]

I am in agreement with this…But therein lies the rub…
**In your earlier post you made no mention of repentance or contrition, only fear and fear can have a number of things prompting it.
**
That said, the information you provided makes it clear that if the contrition is sincere, even if imperfect, then the person will be saved. As to any particulars arising from any given individual case…as always I leave that up to God.

Peace
James

…]

1. Baptism does not require perfect contrition. His fear of Hell is enough of a “conversion” to make the baptism valid.

…]

I disagree, but thanks for your responses.

 

[JRKH]

I disagree, but thanks for your responses.

You are most welcome.

In thinking through the matter - I believe I may have been a bit too “defensive” in my responses to you. For that I apologize.

The reason I think this is because my original response was to Sair’s post way back at post # 38 where s/he said, “…But a psychotic serial killer who spent his life murdering, raping, torturing and generally making life miserable and horrifying for others, would only have to convert and repent on his deathbed…”
Such terminology tends to play down the true reality of coming to a true repentance and conversion…especially for someone who has spent their life in selfish and evil…ways.
I’m sure that you agree with me on this point…that true repentance and conversion - even that which stems from fear of damnation - is a difficult thing and should not be thought of or treated as anything less.

Peace
James

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Bradski
**
Atheist Girl dies and because she has lived her life honestly, she’s granted eternal life. I’ve taken Charle’s advice and have committed myself entirely to God. She meets me and Charles when we die and says she’s sorry, but we can’t come in. What the …? We’ve praised God every waking moment. We have submitted to His will. We are True Christians and we are throwing ourselves at His mercy.

‘Sorry’, she says. ‘There is a God. But not the one you picked’.**

Several things faulty with this scenario.

In the first place, it assumes that atheistgirl’s “honesty” will save her. In other words, if you deny God, God will save you anyway, and don’t worry about repenting your sins. My, isn’t that rather self serving a philosophy. You get to sin all your life long, never repent, and get to heaven anyway because your atheism was “honest”? How do you know it was honest and not just self serving?

In the second place, the person who “honestly” does not believe in God is not likely to be forgiven her disbelief by some God other than the Christian God.

In the third place, how would you know for a fact that the Christian God is not the true God?

 

[englishredrose]

Bradski
**
Atheist Girl dies and because she has lived her life honestly, she’s granted eternal life. I’ve taken Charle’s advice and have committed myself entirely to God. She meets me and Charles when we die and says she’s sorry, but we can’t come in. What the …? We’ve praised God every waking moment. We have submitted to His will. We are True Christians and we are throwing ourselves at His mercy.

‘Sorry’, she says. ‘There is a God. But not the one you picked’.**

Several things faulty with this scenario.

In the first place, it assumes that atheistgirl’s “honesty” will save her. In other words, if you deny God, God will save you anyway, and don’t worry about repenting your sins. My, isn’t that rather self serving a philosophy. You get to sin all your life long, never repent, and get to heaven anyway because your atheism was “honest”? How do you know it was honest and not just self serving?

In the second place, the person who “honestly” does not believe in God is not likely to be forgiven her disbelief by some God other than the Christian God.

In the third place, how would you know for a fact that the Christian God is not the true God?

Only God Himself knows - at a risk of being misunderstood if I had written God Knows

We do not know everything and some things like this we really do have to place our trust in God. We do not need to have to work out these saving issues for each other because what matters is between God and the individual.God is the only judge, not us and all we need do is trust in the God that Christ shows us. We don’t have to know, it is all upto God. Otherwise how many Christians are only Christians because they believe it gets them to Heaven? Awful question to be asked but think about it. Would you believe in God, the Christlike God if you thought there was some other God that got you to Heaven? Some of us don’t believe because of Heaven but some of us do believe because of the belief it will get us to Heaven.

Once again in the risk of being misunderstood but using the phrase ‘God Knows’

 

[Charlemagne_II]

englishredrose

We do not need to have to work out these saving issues for each other because what matters is between God and the individual.

But Cain should have said: “I am my brother’s keeper.”

 

[livingwordunity]

Hitler was a Catholic Christian. So a special case of the original question is: Can an atheist be closer to God than Hitler? Well, in terms of being closer to God by doing God’s will, I think the answer to that is yes, which settles the original question as well.

Hitler was born a Catholic, but he abandoned it for a form of neopaganism. Evidence of this is the fact that he put many Catholics to death during the Holocaust including nuns and priests. We even have a couple of canonized saints who are martyrs because of Hitler’s Holocaust. Further evidence is the fact that Hitler’s symbol was the swastika and not the cross. The swasticka is found in non-Christian religions. It is not a Christian symbol.

 

[annmariem]

No. Non-believers do not accept the reality of God, and therefore cannot be close to the Trinity at all!

 

[annmariem]

This message is for those who refuse to believe. It would be great if these people were to see the error of not believing and convert to Roman Catholism.

 

[atheistgirl]

No. Non-believers do not accept the reality of God, and therefore cannot be close to the Trinity at all!

But God could be much closer to non believers than certain so called believers

Sarah x

 

[atheistgirl]

This message is for those who refuse to believe. It would be great if these people were to see the error of not believing and convert to Roman Catholism.

Message received and understood.

Sorry to disappoint.



Sarah x

 

[JCnMe]

I have seen many find their way back to God and the Church after conversations with confrontational atheists… and much more quickly than those approached by scripture spouting wells of Christian wisdom … are they doing God’s work.?..I think so-even if they don’t recognize it as such or know who worked through them to bring about such an epiphany in another… physical limitations end with the body- the spirit does not carry the body’s physical limitations or burdens with it- such as being a sociopath-perhaps spiritual blindness in this life is considered a physical burden/cross one has picked up to carry through life- … we all know it is the lamb who has lost it’s way that God looks for to carry home… yes it’s possible that one lost lamb can be closer than the flock- the struggle to get home is greater:heaven:

 

[BrunoMaria]

No, an atheist can NOT be closer to God than a believer. Beware of any thought that God who accomplished such overwhelming deed like our salvation through Jesus’ passion, wouldn’t mind if we believe in this deed of God’s love and Jesus doctrine or not.
We feel insulted, if somebody doesn’t believe us. It’s the cheekiest insult we can affront God with, when rejecting God’s existence and God’s deeds.
To think that such atheist who is convinced that there is no God could by any means be closer to God than he who believes in God and confirms God’s being and so is close to God, is absolutely incredible.
Same it’s simply thoughtlessness in the extreme, to imagine that “God just in case He actually exists after all” won’t mind my disbelieve as I otherwise didn’t do anything wrong and was “good”.
Nobody is good, when he denies God. Would a father call his child a good person, when this child of his would deny and dump him? To decide against God, remains a major sin against God, God won’t simply wipe away. Jesus warned of his sin in many verses, just one of them let’s cite here – it’s in Mt 10,33: Whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.
Woe to him who is denied by God! Mt 18,6: „…it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea“.
Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever you sow, that you will also reap. Gal 6,7

 

[JCnMe]

With all due respect - you have no idea what God has in store for non believers-… you can speculate because of your own understanding…but wait- we are not to lean on our own understanding… we are to trust God in all things…to seek God in all things… and not to judge or we judge ourselves… each person is unique in God’s eyes- and I’m certain that goes for non believers too-even if they don’t know Him-He knows them… as I said in my previous post- I’ve seen God use atheist arguments to bring people back into the Church… best to just stand back-and be amazed at how God works… an atheist isn’t denying God- it would take a believer to deny…an atheist has no reference for God-no sense of Presence or Faith-it seems like a fairy tale to them… only God can change that-all we can do is share what Gods Presence means to us … the simple fact that a few find themselves on a Catholic discussion board speaks volumes about where they are being led…

 

[kkollwitz]

“I tell you, there were many widows in Israel in the days of Elijah, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when there came a great famine over all the land; 26 and Elijah was sent to none of them but only to Zarephath, in the land of Sidon, to a woman who was a widow. 27 And there were many lepers in Israel in the time of the prophet Elisha; and none of them was cleansed, but only Naaman the Syrian.”

“Truly, I say to you, not even in Israel have I found such faith. 11 I tell you, many will come from east and west and sit at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, 12 while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.” 13 And to the centurion Jesus said, “Go; be it done for you as you have believed.”

 

[tomcnj]

“Judge not lest ye be judged.”

Why do so called religious people judge so much?

Don’t worry about others, atheists, etc… Worry about yourself and where YOU stand.

 

[victorbuhagiar]

The best reply I read here is the one further up. This is an absurd question.