Can a non-believer be closer to God than a Christian?

[atheistgirl]

There is no integrity in self-deception.

Correct.

That’s why I don’t deceive myself.

If I’m unconvinced of something, I’m unconvinced.



Sarah x

 

[Charlemagne_II]

atheistgirl

If I’m unconvinced of something, I’m unconvinced.

That won’t save you if there is a God. You should have given God the benefit of your doubts, for the simple reason there is no way to convince yourself there is no God … no evidence whatever … only your desire not to believe in God.

 

[JRKH]

atheistgirl

If I’m unconvinced of something, I’m unconvinced.

That won’t save you if there is a God. You should have given God the benefit of your doubts, for the simple reason there is no way to convince yourself there is no God … no evidence whatever … only your desire not to believe in God.

I think that this is really the core matter…Not that I would have said it this way - but since it is impossible to “prove” either the existence of the non-existence of God…much depends on which side of the argument gets the “benefit of the doubt” by a person.
This is why, for me, I can’t get my head around being an atheist. At the very least - I could see being a deist or an agnostic…but never an atheist.

Peace
James

 

[CaptFun]

Belatedly I spot a problem with this question.

I took it as “could there be an overlap?”

And I said “Yes”. But then illustrated that it would be a “not actually, but reputationally Christian” and a “not actually, but perceived, atheist” at the judgement of “Sheep and goats” due to the works they did or didn’t do (prompted by the Holy Spirit) – and cited a parable from Matthew 25 and another parable of the repentant son who said no … and the insincere son who said yes … but then did nothing.

TAKEN ANOTHER WAY – as in could atheism ever be superior to Christianity? No.

Embracing a teaching or philosophy that contradicts Jesus is rejection of Jesus, the only Savior.

God’s mercy is great, and He wants everyone to BE saved … and He knows all people’s hearts. St. Thomas may be the defense lawyer at the trial of a soul who “did not believe”. Maybe St. Peter (who denied the Lord in a different way and was forgiven) and Zacharias
(from Luke 1) too.

A secret atheist might fare better. One who has “lost their faith” might just be going through a “dark night of the soul”.

A public atheist who is questioning may benefit from “seek and you shall find” and graces if sincere. In a way atheism is like the theological South Pole. Every step one takes brings one “closer to God” though … one mustn’t miss their chance to “repent and be baptised.”

Jesus was quite vexed with those who had the look of believers - but were hypocrites.
These gave scandal in their lack of love for their neighbors and usually they presented
an odd portrayal of God that Jesus labored to correct.

This kind of question MIGHT just verge into the area of:

2 Timothy 2:23 Avoid foolish and ignorant debates, for you know that they breed quarrels.

… although … it then goes on to say this (for a bit of context that may clarify things)

24 A slave of the Lord should not quarrel, but should be gentle with everyone, able to teach, tolerant,

25 correcting opponents with kindness. It may be that God will grant them repentance that leads to knowledge of the truth,

26 and that they may return to their senses out of the devil’s snare, where they are entrapped by him, for his will.

 

[atheistgirl]

That won’t save you if there is a God.

That’s ok.

If living a good life with honesty and integrity counts for nothing with this deity, it’s not a deity I’d be particularly bothered about.

If they have the power to send me to eternal hell and suffering and do it would just prove I was right about them all along

You should have given God the benefit of your doubts, for the simple reason there is no way to convince yourself there is no God … no evidence whatever … only your desire not to believe in God.

Huh???

I should believe in a God because there is no way to convince myself there isn’t one

Seriously???

I should also believe in a pink elephant orbiting an unknown planet because there is no way to convince myself there isn’t one, or couldn’t be one

That just makes no sense.

Sarah x

 

[JRKH]

That’s ok.

If living a good life with honesty and integrity counts for nothing with this deity, it’s not a deity I’d be particularly bothered about.

If they have the power to send me to eternal hell and suffering and do it would just prove I was right about them all along

Huh???

I should believe in a God because there is no way to convince myself there isn’t one

Seriously???

I should also believe in a pink elephant orbiting an unknown planet because there is no way to convince myself there isn’t one, or couldn’t be one

That just makes no sense.

Sarah x

Your pink elephant comment is a good one…Never saw any pink elephants…but in my “heathen days” I visited some far away planets…Maybe we should ask Arthur Dent if he has run across any…

Kidding aside, your reference to the “pink elephant” to me equates to a specific definition of a specific thing - like we might discuss a specific description of God.
You rightly reject the idea of a “pink elephant” orbiting another planet but you would not reject the idea of something orbiting another planet - and possibly discovering something orbiting another planet that is singularly unexpected.

Likewise I think it reasonable that a person have a problem with certain descriptions of a god or gods - or even of the One Almighty God. Yet - even for that rejection it seems foolish to reject the idea of God and that God might just possibly be something singularly unexpected and greater than any of us could ever describe.

Not sure I explained that well…I hope it makes sense…

To me it just makes sense to me to believe and to hope and to live in this expectant faith. Especially when I can base it on something as wonderful as Love.

Peace
James

 

[theistgal]

Since the “god” most atheists (including myself, when I was one) are rejecting is not the true and infinite God, creator and sustainer of the universe, but the angry little god of certain Internet despots who seem determined to bypass the Church’s refusal to declare any human being in Hell, or beyond salvation, then I think most atheists have a pretty good shot at the “invincible ignorance” loophole.

 

[atheistgirl]

Yet - even for that rejection it seems foolish to reject the idea of God and that God might just possibly be something singularly unexpected and greater than any of us could ever describe.

Not sure I explained that well…I hope it makes sense…

You did a very good job James I know what you’re saying. I hope now you’ll be able to follow what I’m about to try and say

I’m not rejecting the idea of God as such.

I’ve said here many times, I do not say, and I don’t think I’ve ever said, there is no God.

I’m simply not in a position to make such a claim.

What I do say, is I see no evidence for such a Deity.

To bring in your previous post, it does go beyond agnosticism for me, because while it’s perfectly accurate to say I do not know there is a God, I also can not say I believe such a Deity may exist - even though, He may.

In just the same way, the pink elephant orbiting the plant we don’t know exists may exist, for me, it’s perfectly reasonable, in addition to not knowing if such an entity exists (agnosticism) to not believe such an entity exists, (atheism) while happily admitting it’s perfectly possible it might.

But in the absence of all and any evidence to the contrary, it is, I think, perfectly reasonable to reject such knowledge and belief claims.

Sarah x

 

[TimeEntrance]

Charlemagne II,

Some atheists high on their egos will probably go to eternal damnation in hell.

If God exists we have the choice to accept God on His own terms or not. If we choose not to we suffer the consequences. I know people in U.S. prisons. If feel no need to play around with grown adults about prison and hell. You make your bed.

I’m not in prison. The biggest losers are those eternally damned to hell. If I’m in heaven I’m not going to be crying over them no more than I do all those locked up in prison.

We make it to heaven? We are winners. And winners in the truest sense.

There are some atheists that are very humble and don’t like upsetting or offending Christians or other religious people. They live their lives in rather modest, chaste, fashion and extend themselves to those burdened in some serious way. These people I hope–and think–God will welcome into heaven.

But I think you’ll find on boards like these atheists expressing how fabulous their lives are and glorying in their own rational minds. They have great jobs, are alphas, have great boyfriends/girlfriends, spouses and blah, blah, blah. Many Christians and Catholics are impressed with this stuff because they are impressed with rank. I have to admit I’m impressed with rank too. One reason that while I’m still on this earth I’m something of a social climber. Nonetheless, I kind of know everything that glitters isn’t gold. There is plenty of Christian literature depicting–as a warning of sorts–Jesus coming in the form of the beta, omega, the unattractive of lowly rank in the world. Not surprising in these stories most Catholics or Christians pass such a lowly person up. They rush towards the kings and queens, the alphas and earth shakers.

Everyone is always talking about “winners” and they mean of this earth. But here’s the thing: the finish line is not on this earth.

At least for me it is good to try and remember that. I can’t speak for another.

 

[JRKH]

You did a very good job James I know what you’re saying. I hope now you’ll be able to follow what I’m about to try and say

Thanks - I’ll try

I’m not rejecting the idea of God as such.

I’ve said here many times, I do not say, and I don’t think I’ve ever said, there is no God.

I’m simply not in a position to make such a claim.

What I do say, is I see no evidence for such a Deity.

And yet the term "Atheist - which you claim for yourself specifies one who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.
This definition is not an open one…

To bring in your previous post, it does go beyond agnosticism for me, because while it’s perfectly accurate to say I do not know there is a God, I also can not say I believe such a Deity may exist - even though, He may.

So best to leave your gear in “neutral” than to put in the gear of denial (which is what Atheist means)…

In just the same way, the pink elephant orbiting the planet we don’t know exists may exist, for me, it’s perfectly reasonable, in addition to not knowing if such an entity exists (agnosticism) to not believe such an entity exists, (atheism) while happily admitting it’s perfectly possible it might.

Reasonable - perhaps…but to my mind - foolish in the case of God.

But in the absence of all and any evidence to the contrary, it is, I think, perfectly reasonable to reject such knowledge and belief claims.

And so the discussion continues.

Peace
James

 

[cornbread_r2]

It would apply equally. Why would it not?

…]

Allow me to give a cleaner example.

A dying, unbaptized sociopath fears Hell. He has heard that baptism can save him and requests such. He is baptized, dies almost immediately and goes straight to Heaven with no need for purgation.

This is possible for the following reasons:

1. Baptism does not require perfect contrition. His fear of Hell is enough of a “conversion” to make the baptism valid.
2. Baptism removes not only the stain of original sin, but also all temporal punishment associated with whatever sins he may have committed during his life – no matter how numerous or severe.

In this case, this life-long sociopath goes straight to Heaven without the conversion and purgation process you described previously. So, it would be possible for the worst person in the world to simply convert and be saved.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

atheistgirl

**Huh???

I should believe in a God because there is no way to convince myself there isn’t one.**

Yes! The fate of your immortal soul depends on it!

In just the same way, the pink elephant orbiting the plant we don’t know exists may exist, for me, it’s perfectly reasonable, in addition to not knowing if such an entity exists (agnosticism) to not believe such an entity exists, (atheism) while happily admitting it’s perfectly possible it might.

It shouldn’t matter to you one way or the other whether a pink elephant can orbit the Earth.

It should matter a great deal to you whether God exists, and whether you should get to know Him without first requiring Him to appear to you in person as proof that He exists, which apparently is the only proof your going to accept.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

cornbread
**
In this case, this life-long sociopath goes straight to Heaven without the conversion and purgation process you described previously. So, it would be possible for the worst person in the world to simply convert and be saved. **

It is possible because God is merciful to those who repent.

The atheist who dies an atheist will not ask forgiveness for his sins, and therefore cannot be saved. But if he repents, like the sociopath and the Christian sinner, he can be saved. God’s mercy is offered to all. The only people who don’t get it is those who refuse it.

 

[atheistgirl]

Yes! The fate of your immortal soul depends on it!

Maybe you can do it, but I can’t convince myself to believe something I simply don’t believe. Pascal’s Wager is most disingenuous and lacks integrity.

It should matter a great deal to you whether God exists, and whether you should get to know Him without first requiring Him to appear to you in person as proof that He exists, which apparently is the only proof your going to accept.

You don’t know what proof I would accept.

It is a matter of great importance if a God exists or not, and then, if it can be established if that God is the God of Christianity, and then, most particularly, if Catholicism is the fullest expression of the desires of this God.

Unfortunately, I see no evidence to suggest this is the case.

If your very best argument is, well, I should believe, just in case … sorry, I don’t operate on such low levels of integrity.

This is two posts in a row you’ve rolled your eyes.

Do you have a problem with them

Sarah x

 

[JRKH]

Allow me to give a cleaner example.

A dying, unbaptized sociopath fears Hell. He has heard that baptism can save him and requests such. He is baptized, dies almost immediately and goes straight to Heaven with no need for purgation.

This is possible for the following reasons:

1. Baptism does not require perfect contrition. His fear of Hell is enough of a “conversion” to make the baptism valid.
2. Baptism removes not only the stain of original sin, but also all temporal punishment associated with whatever sins he may have committed during his life – no matter how numerous or severe.

In this case, this life-long sociopath goes straight to Heaven without the conversion and purgation process you described previously. So, it would be possible for the worst person in the world to simply convert and be saved.

Fair enough - thanks for the clean example…

However I’m afraid that you make the same error as the earlier poster…you say “simply convert” as though this is an easy thing to do.
I don’t mean to contradict what you are saying above…but I think that we need to be careful not to give the impression that such a “last minute reprieve” is an easy thing to accomplish.

The Bible says “repent and be baptized”. Repentance is a crucial factor and nowhere do you mention repentance above. Simply asking for receiving baptism because one fears and wishes to avoid hell - but without the prerequisite repentance is simply a continuation of the lifelong self-centeredness that is a hallmark of the sociopath. As such - without true repentance, baptism can do nothing to save the person.

In short, It’s not the rite of baptism alone that will settle the matter in this person’s favor, but more importantly it is the the sincerity and contrition and repentance (the baptism of desire) that precedes the request to be baptized.

After that - Whether a person will still be required to undergo purgation - I leave that up to God.

Peace
James

 

[vera_dicere]

Depends on the atheist, doesn’t it? Some atheists I think are simply searching for truth, and in their search they may be edging closer and closer to God, who is Truth.

I don’t think I have to reiterate what others have said about some christians.

Then there’s always the whole “full knowledge/full consent” thing. Is the atheist an atheist only because they had a terrible experience with christians, maybe abused by a priest, or liived under mentally unwell christian parents? God, I’m sure, has a special place in His heart for those so wounded.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

atheistgirl
**
Maybe you can do it, but I can’t convince myself to believe something I simply don’t believe. Pascal’s Wager is most disingenuous and lacks integrity. **

Just for your information, Pascal was no intellectual slouch and he exhibited lots of integrity by taking on the corrupt Jesuits of his day…

That you have metaphorically rolled your eyes at his so-called lack of integrity speaks volumes about your ignorance.

Probably on your deathbed Pascal’s argument will seem less disingenuous and you will be whistling a different tune?

 

[atheistgirl]

Just for your information, Pascal was no intellectual slouch and he exhibited lots of integrity by taking on the corrupt Jesuits of his day…

I never said he was.

That you have metaphorically rolled your eyes at his so-called lack of integrity speaks volumes about your ignorance.

What ignorance?

I never said Pascal lacked integrity.

I said his wager did.

To me.

Probably on your deathbed Pascal’s argument will seem less disingenuous and you will be whistling a different tune?

I have never had a problem with being wrong and correcting myself.

If before my death bed I find myself becoming convinced of a Deity, or at least lacking in surety there isn’t one, I will have no problem whatever acknowledging this.

If I go to my death bed as I am now - I will die with a huge smile on my face, surrounded by loved ones, peaceful and happy having lived a great life, and looking forward to fertilizing my favorite tree.

Sarah x

 

[Charlemagne_II]

atheistgirl
**
I have never had a problem with being wrong and correcting myself. **

Then I wish you the most positive death possible.
I believe you are worth a good deal more than fertilizer.

 

[atheistgirl]

Then I wish you the most positive death possible.
I believe you are worth a good deal more than fertilizer.

Thank you.

The one thing that is for sure, and can not be denied, is, God or no God, my body will be fertilizing that tree

It’s just a simple fact of nature.

And I can’t think of anything better to do with my decomposing body that to recycle the nutrients to a tree that for hundreds of years to come will provide a home for birds, shelter from the rain, a tree house for my grandchildren and shade for all my family.

If I spiritually go on to meet my maker, well, I mean, how good can this dying business get

Sarah x