Can a spouse *demand* children?

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Can a spouse demand children?

First, a little background. My wife is Catholic, I am not. I have nothing against the church, and have even recently became interested in becoming Catholic. My wife and I have no children, and have been married for about 2 years. My wife wants children now. We are using NFP, by the way.

So, now we have a little bit of conflict. I want to wait until we have some of our debt paid off because, honestly, we cannot afford to have a child right now. It wouldn’t put us on the street, but we would be completely stretched to the max. Additionally, I want to have my children close to the same age, so they can grow up together. If we had a child now, we could not afford another one for a while.

My wife argues that God will provide and that her Grandmother had a bunch of kids that she couldn’t afford, and they are all fine. Furthermore, she is threatening a divorce if I am not willing to start having kids now. She says that it is grounds for annulment because we are not open to children, and that she has a marital right to children, and that I cannot withhold children if she wants them.

So, my questions (keep in mind I am not Catholic, so I am asking for the Catholic view point. If I ask a stupid question, please be patient with me):
  1. Am I wrong to want to pay off (some of) my debt before I start to have kids?
  2. Is this something to get an annulment over?
  3. A. Can my wife demand children? Is it her ‘marital right’?
  4. B. If yes to 3A, when do I get a vote? At what point do you say “We literally *cannot * afford children! We will live on the streets!” (Okay, maybe a little over dramatic)
Thanks.
 
She has the right to ask so because as Christians we believe that marriage is coming from God etc…
You cannot withhold having children from her.

She has the right to ask for children now.
You do not have an obligation to say yes blindly and immediately.

Prudence is a Christian virtue that allows us to do what is best for the family. We need to use prudence when making decisions for the family (and children are part of the family). Waiting a period of time might be the right thing to do. However, it is God who is in control and we cannot use the excuse of prudence to put things on hold until we are 100% comfortable.

My suggestion is that you guys really look at your finances. Unless something dramatic happened, you are where you expected to be when you got married with the promise of having children. Once you have a little bit of emergency savings and controlled debt, you are ready to go on with having children.

Spacing the children within a few years could be nice but it could be harder for the mother. Do not deny yourself the gift of parenthood because of some silly social assumptions. Be prudent, trust in God, and limit your expectations.
 
pconwell said:
Can a spouse demand children?

First, a little background. My wife is Catholic, I am not. I have nothing against the church, and have even recently became interested in becoming Catholic. My wife and I have no children, and have been married for about 2 years. My wife wants children now. We are using NFP, by the way.

So, now we have a little bit of conflict. I want to wait until we have some of our debt paid off because, honestly, we cannot afford to have a child right now. It wouldn’t put us on the street, but we would be completely stretched to the max. Additionally, I want to have my children close to the same age, so they can grow up together. If we had a child now, we could not afford another one for a while.

My wife argues that God will provide and that her Grandmother had a bunch of kids that she couldn’t afford, and they are all fine. Furthermore, she is threatening a divorce if I am not willing to start having kids now. She says that it is grounds for annulment because we are not open to children, and that she has a marital right to children, and that I cannot withhold children if she wants them.

So, my questions (keep in mind I am not Catholic, so I am asking for the Catholic view point. If I ask a stupid question, please be patient with me):
  1. Am I wrong to want to pay off (some of) my debt before I start to have kids?
  2. Is this something to get an annulment over?
  3. A. Can my wife demand children? Is it her ‘marital right’?
  4. B. If yes to 3A, when do I get a vote? At what point do you say “We literally *cannot * afford children! We will live on the streets!” (Okay, maybe a little over dramatic)
Thanks.
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Debt is bad but I’ve heard the “well we’ll wait to pay off the debt” and…it doesn’t ever happen. If you weren’t prepared to have children when you married why did you marry then and not put that off instead of putting off kids after marriage. The main reason for marriage is children (plus it’s for those that don’t want to just live in sinful lust the rest of their lives) but children is the main reason. First off if it’s a hospital thing get state insurance or some other kind to help pay for the birth. You can shop on Craigslist for used crib/baby stuff it won’t break the bank. It seems to me you don’t want to have kids and she does. How long exactly do you expect her to wait? (two years is already a long time IMO) Sorry if I sound rude but if my husband married me and said well we have debt we’ll put off having kids till…how much exactly do you want gone (the debt?) and I being Catholic knew that the main reason for marriage is children that would tick me off too. (I’m lucky my Anglican hubby loves and wants however many kids God gives us-and we are in medical debt too but that doesn’t mean we avoid God’s blessings-children)

You seem as though “keep in mind I’m not Catholic” that you are using that as an excuse to not have children as though you aren’t bound to the Church’s rules which you aren’t but how far is that to your wife? If I’m out of line sorry but it seems like you don’t want kids…to which you should have told her that when you were going to marry her. What would happen if she got pregnant? The debt wouldn’t go away then either…I would hope and pray (no offense) that you would not try to push abortion because of debt/lack of funds.

DoT
 
defenderoftruth said:
Debt is bad but I’ve heard the “well we’ll wait to pay off the debt” and…it doesn’t ever happen. If you weren’t prepared to have children when you married why did you marry then and not put that off instead of putting off kids after marriage. The main reason for marriage is children (plus it’s for those that don’t want to just live in sinful lust the rest of their lives) but children is the main reason. First off if it’s a hospital thing get state insurance or some other kind to help pay for the birth. You can shop on Craigslist for used crib/baby stuff it won’t break the bank. It seems to me you don’t want to have kids and she does. How long exactly do you expect her to wait? (two years is already a long time IMO) Sorry if I sound rude but if my husband married me and said well we have debt we’ll put off having kids till…how much exactly do you want gone (the debt?) and I being Catholic knew that the main reason for marriage is children that would tick me off too. (I’m lucky my Anglican hubby loves and wants however many kids God gives us-and we are in medical debt too but that doesn’t mean we avoid God’s blessings-children)

You seem as though “keep in mind I’m not Catholic” that you are using that as an excuse to not have children as though you aren’t bound to the Church’s rules which you aren’t but how far is that to your wife? If I’m out of line sorry but it seems like you don’t want kids…to which you should have told her that when you were going to marry her. What would happen if she got pregnant? The debt wouldn’t go away then either…I would hope and pray (no offense) that you would not try to push abortion because of debt/lack of funds.

DoT
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That is cold especially the comment about abortion. 😦
 
(NB: Everything I say is a general statement to whomever is reading and not directly to the OP, since I obviously don’t know the details of his specific circumstances).
  1. Traditional Catholic teaching holds that NFP generally can only be used for a grave reason in the first place. A couple who goes into a marriage using NFP from the start has already confused the purpose of NFP.
  2. Traditionally, a grave reason included things like the mother’s life being threatened by pregnancy and severe financial destitution if another child is born. The idea that one has to be completely financially solvent (or even mostly solvent) before one has a child is a modern notion that many good Catholics have mistakenly adopted. Children have become a thing of convenience to be acquired after other material comforts have been obtained.
  3. In truth, the openness to life and children should be the number #1 priority in a marriage, before acquiring financial stability or material comfort. This said, if at the time a couple is discerning marriage they know that they legitimately cannot afford children AT ALL, then a good Priest would counsel that couple against getting married at that time. One must go into marriage expecting that children could occur at any time, not just when it is convenient.
(Note, if the severe financial circumstances occur after the marriage, then again, a good Priest may counsel for the prudential use of NFP, provided that the circumstances are suitably grave).

The sad reality is that the vast majority of couples practicing NFP are doing it for convenience’s sake and not because a real grave reason actually exists. Most people don’t think twice before they buy cars, televisions, laptops, ipods, wireless internet, cable TV, posh dinners or other luxuries. But when a child is mentioned, the immediate reaction is “we can’t afford that!”

Think again.

Finally, if you think that one child is a burden, consider the life of Pope St. Pius X who was born into a poor, Italian family of 10 children. His parents had no luxuries, and probably had financial worries as well.

Thankfully, his parents were not concerned about modern comforts before starting a family or we would have been deprived of the wonderful life of a truly great Pope and Saint. 👍
 
Cristiano said:
That is cold especially the comment about abortion. 😦
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How is it cold? Granted he’s for NFP not artificial contraception but his poor wife how long is she supposed to wait? If he’s soooooo against a child because of debt how is my comment (which is not accusatory btw but a hope-not thing) about abortion “cold”? I’ve personally know people that try the NFP/contraception route then the baby is there then it’s still NO WAY we can’t afford it…ie he pushes for abortion. NOTICE I DID** NOT** SAY THE OP WOULD DO THAT BUT THAT I HOPE HE WOULDN’T.

DoT
 
ok some background on my post…

There was a devoutly Catholic guy I used to work with he got married to this young woman that went through RCIA and was baptized/confirmed Catholic before their wedding. So they got married she told him that she was open to kids. But in reality she wasn’t and used birth control for 5 years (that’s how long they were married) telling me and others (she worked with me too) that she never intended on kids and just told him that so he’d marry her and get off her case.

He had enough of it, they ended up civilly divorced and he got an annulment and has 6 girls (4 of which are his biologically) by his wife who’s a REAL Catholic (she converted too).

Now granted this isn’t the same situation or people but sorry this whole thing stinks to me…

DoT
 
pconwell said:
So, my questions (keep in mind I am not Catholic, so I am asking for the Catholic view point. If I ask a stupid question, please be patient with me):
  1. Am I wrong to want to pay off (some of) my debt before I start to have kids?
  2. Is this something to get an annulment over?
  3. A. Can my wife demand children? Is it her ‘marital right’?
  4. B. If yes to 3A, when do I get a vote? At what point do you say “We literally *cannot * afford children! We will live on the streets!” (Okay, maybe a little over dramatic)
Thanks.
Click to expand...
I think that both you and your wife are in the wrong and you need to have a serious discussion about this. #1 marriage is for creating a family, that means being open to life, this is something she promised at your wedding and she might be starting to feel guilty for continually using NFP for something she does not see as a “grave or serious” reason to avoid. #2 someone who will threaten divorce or annullment is having some other issues. This is why you need to discuss things with her, calmly.

I, personally, do not think wanting some debt paid off is reason to avoid. Especially if having this child will not literally put you on the streets. This is why every month, if you’re practicing NFP, you are called to prayerfully discern whether or not you need to continue avoiding. The truth is, nobody is EVER financially, or any other way, ready to have children. Do not wait for something that won’t happen.
defenderoftruth said:
ok some background on my post…

There was a devoutly Catholic guy I used to work with he got married to this young woman that went through RCIA and was baptized/confirmed Catholic before their wedding. So they got married she told him that she was open to kids. But in reality she wasn’t and used birth control for 5 years (that’s how long they were married) telling me and others (she worked with me too) that she never intended on kids and just told him that so he’d marry her and get off her case.

He had enough of it, they ended up civilly divorced and he got an annulment and has 6 girls (4 of which are his biologically) by his wife who’s a REAL Catholic (she converted too).

Now granted this isn’t the same situation or people but sorry this whole thing stinks to me…

DoT
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I agree that your comment about abortion seemed to be cold, with this post I see where you’re coming from, but I don’t really think it’s fair to the OP. He has not said he doesn’t want children, he’s expressing concern for being able to provide for them. He does need some education, but not necessarily harsh. In my opinion, the wife is in the wrong too because she is threatening divorce/annulment which is never a good way to get things you want.
 
pconwell said:
  1. A. Can my wife demand children? Is it her ‘marital right’?
Click to expand...
Technically speaking, your wife has the right to demand marital relations with you in a manner apt for the creation of children, including the timing of those relations during her fertile times. You gave her this right, and she gave you a similar right, when you married. If you did not intend to honor that right at the time you got married, this can be grounds for annulment.

There is nothing in your post that would indicate her demand is so unreasonable as to contravene her right to “payment of the marital debt”.

She does not have the right to insist upon extraordinary medical treatments for infertility, or to insist upon adoption. Whether children come is up to God.
 
Jea9 said:
I think that both you and your wife are in the wrong and you need to have a serious discussion about this. #1 marriage is for creating a family, that means being open to life, this is something she promised at your wedding and she might be starting to feel guilty for continually using NFP for something she does not see as a “grave or serious” reason to avoid. #2 someone who will threaten divorce or annullment is having some other issues. This is why you need to discuss things with her, calmly.

I, personally, do not think wanting some debt paid off is reason to avoid. Especially if having this child will not literally put you on the streets. This is why every month, if you’re practicing NFP, you are called to prayerfully discern whether or not you need to continue avoiding. The truth is, nobody is EVER financially, or any other way, ready to have children. Do not wait for something that won’t happen.

I agree that your comment about abortion seemed to be cold, with this post I see where you’re coming from, but I don’t really think it’s fair to the OP. He has not said he doesn’t want children, he’s expressing concern for being able to provide for them. He does need some education, but not necessarily harsh. In my opinion, the wife is in the wrong too because she is threatening divorce/annulment which is never a good way to get things you want.
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I apologize if it sounded cold I really did not mean for it to sound like that sorry if it did. You are correct the “do this or else” thing is no way to act in a marriage (unless they are a cheater and you are telling them to break it off or separate.) BTW, I don’t believe in divorce I don’t see it as valid. Annulment in certain circumstances yes…I don’t know if this qualifies though…she’s probably just really fed up over the no kids…
 
pconwell said:
Can a spouse demand children?

First, a little background. My wife is Catholic, I am not. I have nothing against the church, and have even recently became interested in becoming Catholic. My wife and I have no children, and have been married for about 2 years. My wife wants children now. We are using NFP, by the way.

So, now we have a little bit of conflict. I want to wait until we have some of our debt paid off because, honestly, we cannot afford to have a child right now. It wouldn’t put us on the street, but we would be completely stretched to the max. Additionally, I want to have my children close to the same age, so they can grow up together. If we had a child now, we could not afford another one for a while.

My wife argues that God will provide and that her Grandmother had a bunch of kids that she couldn’t afford, and they are all fine. Furthermore, she is threatening a divorce if I am not willing to start having kids now. She says that it is grounds for annulment because we are not open to children, and that she has a marital right to children, and that I cannot withhold children if she wants them.

So, my questions (keep in mind I am not Catholic, so I am asking for the Catholic view point. If I ask a stupid question, please be patient with me):
  1. Am I wrong to want to pay off (some of) my debt before I start to have kids?
  2. Is this something to get an annulment over?
  3. A. Can my wife demand children? Is it her ‘marital right’?
  4. B. If yes to 3A, when do I get a vote? At what point do you say “We literally *cannot * afford children! We will live on the streets!” (Okay, maybe a little over dramatic)
Thanks.
Click to expand...
OK, this is just my perspective, but based on what you’ve said (and fully understanding that we don’t have the benefit of your wife’s opinion), I think you should wait to have children.Your financial picture has nothing to do with it; your apparent inability as a couple to compromise in such a critical way is concerning. Do I think you’re too caught up in the money situation? Personally, yes. As another poster said, if you wait until you can afford kids, you’ll never have them. If it were purely a matter of having a baby vs. living on the streets, then I would be 100 percent with you. I don’t get that’s the case for you, though. Families can learn to live on less than what we ‘expect’ we should have. It’s not easy to do (I know from my own experience) but it can be done. Beyond that, I find your wife’s behavior a bit appalling. While “technically” she may have the Church on her side, she’s wielding Church teachings like an axe. Threatening to break a holy covenant is a serious matter. I do understand her desire to be a mother, but throwing out the “annulment” card so early in your marriage seems pretty manipulative. But, I’m working from the perspective that you are a younger couple; if your wife’s getting past her late 20s, early 30s, then her behavior could well make sense. In that instance, it might be “now or never.” Good luck and I’m praying for you.
 
Thanks for everyone’s replies.

First, let me assure you abortion is not an option.

So, dumb question. Where does it say that my wife can demand children? Don’t get me wrong, I believe you, I just like to read and learn ‘straight from the well’ - so to speak.

In “Rights and Duties of Parents”, it says “Let them thoughtfully take into account both their own welfare and that of their children, those already born and those which the future may bring. For this accounting they need to reckon with both the material and the spiritual conditions of the times as well as of their state in life… The fecundity of conjugal love cannot be reduced solely to the procreation of children, but must extend to their moral education and their spiritual formation.”

Correct me if I’m wrong, but this sounds to me like 1) you need to keep the material (finacial) considerations in mind, and 2) you shouldn’t have more kids than you can ‘raise’.

What I mean by this second part is, you shouldn’t have more kids than you can handle, even if you can afford more. Right?

Again thanks for your responses. I’m not trying to validate my posistion or prove my wife wrong, I’m just trying to learn.
 
My understanding (correct me if I’m wrong) is that the OP does want children, just not now while still deep in debt?

Tell your wife to get a job if she isn’t already working (or a second job if she is) to help pay down the debt.

Miz
 
turn the title post around. can a spouse “refuse” children?
No.
You married a CAtholic
You knew when you married her Church law, informed by natural law, insists the fruit of marriage and its primary purpose is the procreation of children. Your wife is expressing the normal natural desire for children. It is up to you to come up with a better case for delaying any further.

Tip from someone who got married in debt (both students, both with college loans and no help from anyone financially) if you wait until you are debt free to have children you will both be in assisted living by that time.
 
pconwell said:
So, dumb question. Where does it say that my wife can demand children?
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Canon law defines the requirements for marriage and annulments. See here for the section on matrimonial consent:

Can. 1096 §1. For matrimonial consent to exist, the contracting parties must be at least not ignorant that marriage is a permanent partnership between a man and a woman ordered to the procreation of offspring by means of some sexual cooperation.

§2. This ignorance is not presumed after puberty.

Can. 1101 §1. The internal consent of the mind is presumed to conform to the words and signs used in celebrating the marriage.

§2. If, however, either or both of the parties by a positive act of the will exclude marriage itself, some essential element of marriage, or some essential property of marriage, the party contracts invalidly.
 
i’m going to flip a little here and offer some ideas…i think that it is ok to discuss suspending children for a time. I speak as someone who KNOWS what it is like to have tens and tens and tens and tens of thousands of dolllars in debt. ($90k total in the beginning) DH and I had heavy school debt, credit card debt, car debt, personal loan debt, etc when we got married. it was stressful. adding a child immediately would have been something we could not have handled. period. As it was, we were constantly working and my mom had to be our daycare. DD spentfour days and four nights a week with my parents while I worked a second job and NEVER saw her dad because he worked all week and a second job on the weekend. This is certainly NOT how I pictured it. We had DD after we found out that I had ovarian tumors and my doc suggested we get pregnant immediately or risk NEVER having kids.

we used NFP, and according to our priest AND bishop, we were in accordance with church teaching to use NFP each month to decide if we wanted to allow a try for children. NFP teaching for us did NOT dictate that we had to get together during fertile times, but how to recognize fertile times to decide if we wanted to allow for a try.

why not go through some financial advising? I would recommend something like Financial Peace University (dave ramsey). it’s a 13 wk course that really teaches you how to grab hold of your debt and get it under control. maybe discuss doing the class and having a financial plan in place before moving forward with kids? my opinion is if you discussed this with your priest, he may agree with this ( mine would- he told us to do this).

I know, I know, I know…this is probably not the BEST catholic response, but it is MY response. I KNOW what it is like to REALLY NOT be able to afford kids right away. Our priest was fully aware of our complete situation and was completely supportive. According to previous posters, this may have been wrong, but it’s my story. best of luck-twk
 
O.P.---- Are you looking for “evidence” that you can use to “prove” to your wife that you are “right”?

My advice to you is:

If you wait for the “right time” to have kids, you never will.

Also, I don’t know how old you are, but keep in mind that fertility is not a “given.” What if you start trying to get pregnant in 2 or 3 years, and then find it takes you 2 or 3 years just to get pregnant?

I think you wife is wrong to threaten you with divorce, but I also think it is wrong for you to dismiss her longing for a child. So maybe you would have to make some financial sacrifices. Get used to it, having children involves making an awful lot of sacrifices. 🙂
 
@ Just Lurking, thanks for the link

@ St. Jude, as I said previously, I’m not trying to prove anyone wrong or defend anyone’s decisions. I’m just trying to get prespective and learn about Catholic doctorine.
 
I don’t really feel like getting into a detailed response, but I wanted to share my thoughts in a simplified format.

#1. I don’t know why people use the word “grave” when talking about using NFP. The word is “serious.” And those reasons are between you and God, you and your wife have the right to prayerfully discern what is serious and what is not. The church will not dictate to you what a good reason to avoid children is or is not. It really irritates me that people throw the word “grave” in there. Run a search here: ewtn.com/expert/answers/nfp_serious_motives.htm and see how many times you find “serious”…you won’t find the word “grave” in there anywhere. Humanae Vitae used the word “grave” when saying contraception cannot be used even in “grave” situations, but says that using infertile periods for serious reasons is permitted. Source: usccb.org/prolife/issues/nfp/seriousq.shtml

#2. If your wife is threatening a divorce because you will not conceive children with her then something else is amiss here. I really do not think she has the right to demand children. What if you demanded children from her? No one should be coerced to have children, nor should they be threatened. Spouses who love and respect each other do not behave that way.

#3. I really don’t think it’s a bad thing that you want to pay down debt before having children, but is that really the only reason? Are you and your wife prayerfully discerning every month whether or not to conceive a child? Sounds to me there is a big communication breakdown going on.
 
Why not set financial goals that you will both work hard to meet by the time you have kids–and the soonest that can happen is in 9 months–how many goals can you reach in 9 months? I think you both have legitimate concerns. You want to be able to provide and she is longing for a child–both good things.

I believe it can be ok to use NFP for financial reasons, but you’ve been using it for 2 years so far. If your wife is feeling a great desire to be a mother maybe God is calling you 2 to parenthood sooner than you thought possible. On the other hand you want to be able to take care of your children.

Threatening divorce isn’t ok. Neither is threatening an annulment. Both sound like a temper tantrum UNLESS you’re really stringing her on without giving her definite goals that you would like to meet. You’re both gonna have to compromise. Good luck!

KG
 
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