Can an Atheist Answer These?

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If you can’t answer the questions briefly either you don’t understand the papers or they don’t exist!
    1. Where exactly in the brain are emotions and decisions located?
  1. Where exactly in the brain is the power you use to control yourself?
  2. How can you measure your thoughts, emotions and decisions?
  3. Please describe exactly where truth is located.
  4. What do you consider to be evidence*?
    Exactly! You have failed to do so.
    It is an intelligible proposition - unlike the proposition that irrational, purposeless matter has produced rational, purposeful minds…If the mind is merely brain activity why have human beings always distinguished the mind from the brain?
    What a preposterous statement! It would be headline news all over the world if scientists had explained how the mind works.
  5. My hypothesis is that my mind and other minds exist.
  6. I observe my thoughts and perceptions at regular intervals.
  7. I note that my thoughts and perceptions are consistent and coherent.
  8. I conclude that there is an intangible entity which produces these thoughts.
  9. I have perceptions which I interpret as communications from other minds.
  10. I conclude that there are other minds beside my own.
N.B. The only reality of which we have direct knowledge is the mind. Physical objects are inferred from our perceptions…

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Sigh, i really can’t be bothered. If i searched out the papers would you even read them? I have tried to explain to you countless times what the word atheist means an you wouldn’t even accept that. So can you really blame me, if you wont even correct your misunderstanding of a word what chance will you have with detailed papers?? If you don’t think that brain activity (thoughts/emotions) can be measured then you clearly need to read up a little on the subject.

“1. My hypothesis is that my mind and other minds exist.
2. I observe my thoughts and perceptions at regular intervals.
3. I note that my thoughts and perceptions are consistent and coherent.”

How do you get from that ^^^^^

to this…

“4. I conclude that there is an intangible entity which produces these thoughts.”
 
Sigh, i really can’t be bothered. If i searched out the papers would you even read them? I have tried to explain to you countless times what the word atheist means an you wouldn’t even accept that. So can you really blame me, if you wont even correct your misunderstanding of a word what chance will you have with detailed papers?? If you don’t think that brain activity (thoughts/emotions) can be measured then you clearly need to read up a little on the subject.

“1. My hypothesis is that my mind and other minds exist.
2. I observe my thoughts and perceptions at regular intervals.
3. I note that my thoughts and perceptions are consistent and coherent.”

How do you get from that ^^^^^

to this…

“4. I conclude that there is an intangible entity which produces these thoughts.”
Hahaha… reminds me of this:

blog.stackoverflow.com/wp-content/uploads/then-a-miracle-occurs-cartoon.png
 
Your wrong about it being statistically improbable under the correct conditions it is in fact inevitable.

sciencenews.net.au/scientists-create-artificial-selfreplicating-rna/

Here i hope you don’t mind but this will save me a lot of typing…

youtube.com/watch?v=v8nYTJf62sE
LOL. Under the correct conditions, anything can be inevitable. I’m wondering why you’re imposing the requirement of repeatability on an event with horrible odds of happening once.
 
LOL. Under the correct conditions, anything can be inevitable. I’m wondering why you’re imposing the requirement of repeatability on an event with horrible odds of happening once.
*Anything *can be inevitable? Are you claiming I could theoretically get X-men powers?
 
LOL. Under the correct conditions, anything can be inevitable. I’m wondering why you’re imposing the requirement of repeatability on an event with horrible odds of happening once.
The point is we can repeat many aspects of it, and its seems under the right conditions, I.E that of early earth, that the odds are very much in our favour. (oh and odds don’t work that way)

We impose repeatability so we can actually demonstrate what happened, it removes unfounded speculation.
 
The point is we can repeat many aspects of it, and its seems under the right conditions, I.E that of early earth, that the odds are very much in our favour. (oh and odds don’t work that way)

We impose repeatability so we can actually demonstrate what happened, it removes unfounded speculation.
No, that’s not the point of the requirement of repeatability. Repeatability is only a requirement for a predictive model which by every scientific measure, must involve experimentation and observation. The origins of the cosmos is a singular past event that is neither observable nor repeatable by humans by definition.

The point is, you cannot impose repeatability as a requirement of proving a past event happened. You’re imposing requirements that shouldn’t be requirements, even by scientific standards.It’s clear you’ve never stepped foot in a laboratory, almost as if you’re just cherry picking scientific terms from one of Dawkins’ books or something. If you want to argue that science disproves God, learn a little bit about science first.
 
*Anything *can be inevitable? Are you claiming I could theoretically get X-men powers?
As I said, if you use a qualifier of “under the right conditions,” as you did, then yes. If you make all the rules, you could achieve any result…
 
No, that’s not the point of the requirement of repeatability. Repeatability is only a requirement for a predictive model which by every scientific measure, must involve experimentation and observation. The origins of the cosmos is a singular past event that is neither observable nor repeatable by humans by definition.

The point is, you cannot impose repeatability as a requirement of proving a past event happened. You’re imposing requirements that shouldn’t be requirements, even by scientific standards.It’s clear you’ve never stepped foot in a laboratory, almost as if you’re just cherry picking scientific terms from one of Dawkins’ books or something. If you want to argue that science disproves God, learn a little bit about science first.
We’re not talking about the origin of the cosmos, we’re talking bout Abiogenesis. And when have i ever claimed to be a scientist? I studied biology at university years ago, my degree is in maths and computing. Also of course you don’t have to repeat something to know it happened, to quote potholer “do we need to murder someone to prove a murder happened?”.

However in the case of Abiogenesis** which we are talking about**, the fact we CAN recreate amino acids, (in fact RNA), under natural conditions speaks wonders. Given that what do you deem more likely, that it happen naturally, as we have SHOWN it can. Or that magic man did it?
 
You are mistaken, Leela. There are at least two schools of thought among atheists. Some atheists are positivists. On this forum more than one atheist has asserted that we are biological machines and that thoughts are just electrical currents in the brain. If that is the case there must be a control-centre in the brain. If thoughts, emotions and decisions are solely the result of neural activity it must be possible to locate them - or where they originate. It is unscientific to assert that they exist somewhere in the brain.
I think that the scientistic materialist or positivist that theists always seem to be arguing against is a strawman. It is just what believers think they would have to be if they did not believe in God, but it is not what we nonbelievers actually are. I think that theists tend to be more committed to STEM as exhausting all descriptions of experience than we are, and since STEM does not exhaust all descriptioms, theists must posit an extra-added ingredient called a soul to explain art, love, free will, morality, etc.

While it is useful to explain evolution to think of organisms as survival machines for genes, evolutionary biologists don’t think of themselves as just machines. While they can explain most behavior in those terms, they will still find use for explainations concerning desires and intentions. None of us need to concern oursleves with whether or not what we REALLY are is a machine or something else. We don’t have to settle on any single account of The-Way-Things-Really-Are. Instead we can use lots of different sorts of descriptions of experience for whatever purposes they are useful for without worrying about metaphysical desires of finding the one true account that is supposed to be the final word on reality. Since none of us think that the universe speaks any particular language or demands that any particular words be spoken about it, we don’t feel like we are losing anything by giving up on metaphysics. We are just more comfortable with our lack of certainty than theists are, and we are unwilling to claim certainty where our understanding of our epistemic situation doesn’t justify claims of access to a God’s-Eye-View or perspectiveless perspective on reality.
Code:
    On the other hand if you agree that they do not exist anywhere in particular you imply that they are beyond the scope of science, i.e. they are real but **intangible** and their activity cannot be explained scientifically. And, as you have pointed out, they have attributes the brain lacks.
You are taking a very narrow veiw of science to say that ideas are beyond the scope of science. Science as a body of knowledge is simply the set of things that we have good reason to believe. Science as a method is simply our best attempts at distinguishing what we have good reason to believe from what we nerely wish were true.

[to be continued]
 
But you are still faced with the problem of their unity and apparent independence unity. Do you regard yourself as an autonomous agent? If so you are emancipated from the determinism of the physical world. The question remains as to how this integration and liberation has been achieved. You may not consider it important but the answer does affect our view of ourselves and others. So it is important even from the pragmatist’s point of view because it concerns such issues as whether we have a right to life. That is hardly a minor detail!
The Cartesian self does have such a problem. It’s a good thing that I am not interested in playing metaphysics or it would be a problem for me as well. Ok, I like to play a little bit, but the project of trying to get all are ideas to cohere in a philosophical system is just one among lots of other human projects. If I think about metaphysics, I am thinking of it as such a human project rather than as an attempt to get myself in the proper relation to something great, nonhuman, and ahistorical like God or Reality. I don’t see anyway to stand outside of history like Descartes thought he could in making himself the source of ultimate reality.

I see the “emancipation from the physical world” as an evolutionary process rather than the absurdity of mind emerging out of matter. Molecules emerged from atoms, and cells emerged from molecules, and organisms emerged from cells and later organized into societies. Such societies were dynamically created by organisms to preserve themselves, but societies eventually were “emancipated” enough from biology to pursue purposes of their own. Social values are somewhat independent of biology just as biological life has been emancipated from the determinism of physical laws. Societies dynamically created ideas to help preserve and create better societies, but intellect has found purposes of it’s own as well such as the search for truth regardless of what impact that truth has on society. So this “emancipation” has actually been gradual and has occured in stages rather than a leap from atoms to mind. This Cartesian self that is somewhat emancipated from such patterns is supposed to be completely independent of physical, biological, and social patterns. Such a Cartesian self is an absurd fiction.

As Robert Pirsig wrote in Lila, “Descartes’ “I think therefore I am” was a historically shattering declaration of independence of the intellectual level of evolution from the
social level of evolution, but would he have said it if he had been a seventeenth century Chinese philosopher? If he had been, would anyone in seventeenth century China have listened to him and called him a brilliant thinker and recorded his name in history? If Descartes had said, “The seventeenth century French culture exists, therefore I think, therefore I am,” he would have been correct.”

So there are actually a lot of levels of evolution between mind and matter that dissolve the mind-body problem to the point that you wonder why you ever asked the question. The mind-body problem is only a problem if you buy into the Cartesian subject-object metaphysical constructions that presuppose that the world is composed of mind and matter–of two types of substance, mental substance and material substance in which all the properties that are ascribed to rocks, trees, and minds are supposed to inhere. But what is this substance outside of all its properties? In considering the question, we find ourselves thinking of nothing at all. So why make such metaphysical assertions for the reality of essences or substances that properties are supposed to adhere to? Why not instead just drop the idea of such essences and substances in favor of a web of relations of properties and thereby drop all the philosophical problems that essences create such as the philosophical platypi of appearance-reality, mind-body, free will-fatalism, and objectivity-subjectivity, essential-accidental, and absolute-relative–all the “nest and brood of Greek dualisms” that Dewey railed against.

Best,
Leela
 
If you want to argue that science disproves God, learn a little bit about science first.
LMAO, show me ONE TIME i have said, JUST ONE TIME that science disproves god. I will show you countless times where i have said i DO NOT BELIEVE NOR CLAIM there is NO GOD.

If you want to join a discussion please actually address the points of the discussion, don’t make up random claims about someone (especially when they hold no such position) and argue against your own made up claims. It doesn’t really add much to the discussion.

So could you please take back your claim that i think science disproves god :rolleyes:. Thank you. 😉
 
We’re not talking about the origin of the cosmos, we’re talking bout Abiogenesis. And when have i ever claimed to be a scientist? I studied biology at university years ago, my degree is in maths and computing. Also of course you don’t have to repeat something to know it happened, to quote potholer “do we need to murder someone to prove a murder happened?”.

However in the case of Abiogenesis** which we are talking about**, the fact we CAN recreate amino acids, (in fact RNA), under natural conditions speaks wonders. Given that what do you deem more likely, that it happen naturally, as we have SHOWN it can. Or that magic man did it?
Umm… in order for abiogenesis to occur, the right conditions must be in place. A few of those include that the cosmos must have come into being and the solar system must be in the place it is now. The origins of the cosmos and abiogenesis are not different subjects in the grand scheme of things, they are parts of a whole. The fact that someone has chosen to specialize in one or the other is of no consequence to me. I didn’t know we were limiting the scope of the conversation to only the parts of our origin that deal with RNA. My bad.

I’m not sure what you’re trying to prove about being able to create amino acids. The fact that you can do something that has been done before, i.e., the creation of amino acids, has no bearing on whether we should make repeatability a requirement of proving that past events occurred.
 
Umm… in order for abiogenesis to occur, the right conditions must be in place. A few of those include that the cosmos must have come into being and the solar system must be in the place it is now. The origins of the cosmos and abiogenesis are not different subjects in the grand scheme of things, they are parts of a whole. The fact that someone has chosen to specialize in one or the other is of no consequence to me. I didn’t know we were limiting the scope of the conversation to only the parts of our origin that deal with RNA. My bad.

I’m not sure what you’re trying to prove about being able to create amino acids. The fact that you can do something that has been done before, i.e., the creation of amino acids, has no bearing on whether we should make repeatability a requirement of proving that past events occurred.
HAHA and you claim i know nothing about science. I suggest you look up the word theory, the origin of the cosmos has NOTHING to do with Abiogenesis.
 
If you can’t answer the questions briefly either you don’t understand the papers or they don’t exist!
    1. Where exactly in the brain are emotions and decisions located?
  1. Where exactly in the brain is the power you use to control yourself?
  2. How can you measure your thoughts, emotions and decisions?
  3. Please describe exactly where truth is located.
  4. What do you consider to be evidence*?
    Exactly! You have failed to do so.
    It is an intelligible proposition - unlike the proposition that irrational, purposeless matter has produced rational, purposeful minds…If the mind is merely brain activity why have human beings always distinguished the mind from the brain?
    What a preposterous statement! It would be headline news all over the world if scientists had explained how the mind works.
  5. My hypothesis is that my mind and other minds exist.
  6. I observe my thoughts and perceptions at regular intervals.
  7. I note that my thoughts and perceptions are consistent and coherent.
  8. I conclude that there is an intangible entity which produces these thoughts.
  9. I have perceptions which I interpret as communications from other minds.
  10. I conclude that there are other minds beside my own.
N.B. The only reality of which we have direct knowledge is the mind. Physical objects are inferred from our perceptions…
You think you can mask your inability to answer my questions or refute my argument with a cartoon! 🤷 I leave others to draw their conclusions…
 
Well in that case the conditions are that which we believed existed on early earth, no can we stop with these silly word games please. 🤷
I’m not playing word games. I’m trying to demonstrate one simple concept. Predictive models are just that, and only that. They are predictive. They cannot tell us what happened in the past. You can say that “Under the X conditions, Y will happen.” This is observable, repeatable, and as scientists we can rely on it. But using scientific principles, you will never be able to prove that “Because Y happened, X conditions must have existed at that time.” That is neither observable, nor repeatable. That is not science, it is faith.
 
HAHA and you claim i know nothing about science. I suggest you look up the word theory, the origin of the cosmos has NOTHING to do with Abiogenesis.
When did I display less than mastery of the word “theory?” I don’t think I used the word at all.

The origin of the cosmos has everything to do with abiogenesis. Are they studying different events with different outcomes? Obviously. But the results of one bleed into the cause of the other. Unless you want to say that God intervened in the process. Abiogenesis begins where the results of the origin cosmos end, so to speak. One bleeds over into the other, and provides the elements for the other. That’s all I’m talking about. In other words, it makes no sense to talk about life coming from elements, unless you realize (or at least take for granted) how those elements were put into place and how they interact with each other, which necessarily involves an understanding of our solar system and how it came to support the conditions for abiogenesis.
 
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