M
Marfran
Guest
Faith working through love–that is so beautiful! Thank you!
Can Catholics learn things from Protestants... things they need to learn?
- Status
C
CWBetts
Guest
Not quite…Paul never uses those words in concert
2
2nd_Adam
Guest
Please stop making the claim that I have taken the Pope out of context. It is an untrue statement. There is a long thread on the work of Pope Benedict’s teaching on justification by faith alone with the IF qualifier. Here’s the link again. Currently, there are 281 postings on the subject, therefore, it is impossible for me to take the Pope out of context due to the long discussion. Please join us on that thread. I agree with you that an alltar call conversion (decisional regeneration) is not biblical and does not necessarily convert sinners to God. Decisional regeneration is a man made practice that became popular through Charles Finney (2nd Great Awakening). I also agree that true saving faith manifests itself through charity and love. If a professor of Christ does not manifest in charity and love, then that person has a dead and demonic faith (James 2). I complete agree with the Pope’s IF qualifier, and so does Martin Luther.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=378445
2
2nd_Adam
Guest
2
2nd_Adam
Guest
I agree with that too!
C
CWBetts
Guest
It is not a debatable issue. Quote the chapter and verse where we see “faith alone”
2
2nd_Adam
Guest
I would start with the book of Romans, then go to the book of Galatians. Thereafter, go to the other 11 Epistles of Paul, the four gospel accounts, and the rest of Scripture. Just like the doctrine of the Trinity, justification by faith alone is clearly taught in the Scriptures. Even Pope Benedict knows this too.
The faith alone which justifies a sinner is never alone from a manifestation of charity and love of the redeemed ones.
C
CWBetts
Guest
Not good enough. Specific chapter and verse were “faith alone” are used together. My claim is that they weren’t used together. You say they were. Now prove it. The only verse I know of where they are used together is James 2:24. And that verse says EXPLICITLY that we are not saved by faith alone. If you refuse to back up your claim with proof, that “faith alone” is used elsewhere, I will have to conclude that you are nothing but hot air.I would start with the book of Romans, then go to the book of Galatians. Thereafter, go to the other 11 Epistles of Paul, the four gospel accounts, and the rest of Scripture. Just like the doctrine of the Trinity, justification by faith alone is clearly taught in the Scriptures. Even Pope Benedict knows this too.
2
2nd_Adam
Guest
LOL… you have a funny way to debate and discuss things. When you are able to show me the word “Trinity” in the Bible, I will show use the words “Faith Alone”.
The 21st Century Pope believes in Faith Alone with the If qualifier too. The if qualifier needs to be there since we know that those who have been justified will bear the marks of a true adopted child of God, through charity and love. The redeemed ones will never look like the demons who believe and shudder, because the children God have a living faith in which the Spirit of God dwells in them… producing the good fruit of love through an active living faith.
C
CWBetts
Guest
I said that “faith” and “alone” are never used in concert.(That means together) You say it is debatable. I ask for evidence, and you produce none. Now you try to change the subject. This is not about the use of Trinity, it is about Paul using the phrase “faith alone”, which he does not. The fact is that faith is always followed by obedience. This is how Catholics understand faith. Protestants, on the other hand, including Martin Luther, do not accept that we are still bound by the moral law. “Faith Alone” is true, but only if it is understood that true faith is marked by obedience and fruits of the Spirit. But that is not the typical Protestant understanding of faith. If you accept this then you mare more Catholic than you think.LOL… you have a funny way to debate and discuss things. When you are able to show me the word “Trinity” in the Bible, I will show use the words “Faith Alone”.
2
2nd_Adam
Guest
What do you mean that Catholics are bound to the moral law?
C
CWBetts
Guest
When Jesus forgave anybody of their sins, what did he say? “Go and sin no more” He said “If you love me, keep my commandments” He said “To love the Lord with all you heart, all of your mind, and all of your strength” and “Love your neighbor as yourself” All of this points to moral behavior. We are no longer under the ritualistic laws of the previous covenants. Sacrifices were done. Dietary restrictions were removed. But the moral law is still in full force. If anything, Jesus elevated the standard. We very much are bound to the moral law. Jesus didn’t make sin go away. He paid the price. But we still sin. Without law, there is no sin, if you understand that sin is transgression of the law. Where in your Sola Scriptura theology can you find a scripture passage that says we no longer have any obligation to avoid sin?
2
2nd_Adam
Guest
I agree, the law is good according to Scripture. To love the Lord your God with all of your heart, soul, strength, and mind, and to love you neighbor as yourself is a summary of the 10 commandments (first four commandments is our duty to God, second six commandments is our duty to our fellow man). The law has a purpose for believers and unbelievers alike. As Christians, we grow in personal holiness through the Spirit, conforming to the moral law of God. However, we are not bound to the moral law as a system for salvation. What do you mean that we are bound to the law? Protestant believe that we must put to death the deeds of the flesh through the Spirit. Nobody is proclaiming antinomianism. Your answer to being bound to the law is the difference between a false gospel and the gospel of God which transforms a sinner to the image of Christ.
Justified by Faith
We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.
Paul
In step with the OP, maybe Catholics can learn the gospel of God from Protestants? The gospel needs to be clearly understood and received by all Christians (Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox, Anglicans, etc).
C
CWBetts
Guest
Catholics need to learn the Gospel?? I have seen a lot of arrogance from our Separated Brethren, but this one takes the cake! I need to cool down before I write anything else.
2
2nd_Adam
Guest
When you are saying that we are bound to the law, it appears you are implying that the moral law is a system of salvation through personal obedience to the moral law. Are we justified by faith or through personal obedience to the moral law?
Please see my second signature link. The Catholic Professor is an ex-Reformed Protestant converted to the Catholic Faith. He speaks about how many Catholics who do not know the way of salvation, therefore, Catholics can learn the gospel from Protestants (see OP topic).
Galatians 3
By Faith, or by Works of the Law?
O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?
Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
The Righteous Shall Live by Faith
For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.
R
ron77nyc
Guest
Romans 8, 9 & 10
Romans 8:
1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus
9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you.
38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 9:
16It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.
Romans 10:1Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
**Romans 10:
**9That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.” 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?
S
Sarah_Angel
Guest
Somehow I don’t think that this is the thread for this “faith-alone” debate, seeing as it pops up all over the place on these forums so what difference would it make if it were brought up here?
We have lost track of the intention of the OP, I think.
Can Catholics learn things from Protestants? Well for one, when you know what Protestants believe, Catholics can ask themselves, “How is that different from what Catholics believe? How is it similar/the same?”
I made friends with a Southern Evangelical Baptist on another forum. When I found out about his denomination, all I knew about Baptists was that they were very different from Catholics, although I didn’t know how exactly. This encouraged me to research the differences between Southern Baptists and Catholics, which also encouraged me to sign up on these forums. Because of this friendship I actually know a lot more about the Catholic faith and how it is simply truer than Evangelicalism. I now love Catholicism even more now and I pray that maybe one day he will too.
We have lost track of the intention of the OP, I think.
Can Catholics learn things from Protestants? Well for one, when you know what Protestants believe, Catholics can ask themselves, “How is that different from what Catholics believe? How is it similar/the same?”
I made friends with a Southern Evangelical Baptist on another forum. When I found out about his denomination, all I knew about Baptists was that they were very different from Catholics, although I didn’t know how exactly. This encouraged me to research the differences between Southern Baptists and Catholics, which also encouraged me to sign up on these forums. Because of this friendship I actually know a lot more about the Catholic faith and how it is simply truer than Evangelicalism. I now love Catholicism even more now and I pray that maybe one day he will too.
B
Bill_Pick
Guest
Cathloic need to learn to interpreter the bible as the protestant do, that is a joke. You do not need to cool down, just think who is the one saying this,LOL
R
Reuben_J
Guest
Absolutely cool and which I agree wholeheartedly.
If I have to learn, it will be from Catholic saints. There is so much to learn and to improve that I can never say I have enough. I don’t have a capacity to learn from Protestants that will not dilute my Catholic knowledge and belief.
Having said that, Protestant can be my good friends and I love them but heck, I have to have enough of what Catholicism can offer before perhaps I would turn to others. But not likely, if I have enough of Catholicism then I would just end up with it.
Bible, fellowship, paryers? Excuse me, where have we been if we do see these in our good ole Catholic Church?
God bless.
R
ron77nyc
Guest
Maybe we should not learn Protestant interpretation but we should learn Catholic interpretation. The Catholic Church has always neglected the teaching of the bible.Absolutely cool and which I agree wholeheartedly.
If I have to learn, it will be from Catholic saints.
Bible, fellowship, paryers? Excuse me, where have we been if we do see these in our good ole Catholic Church?
God bless.
novaresearch.eu/index.php/news_events/3/4
“In the beginning was the Word – but the Italians don’t read it” said La Stampa as a response to a recent survey done by Eurisko for the Catholic Biblical Federation. The survey showed that only 14% of Italians questioned were able to answer questions about the Bible correctly. Only 27% had read a passage from the Bible in the past year (compared with 75% in the USA) and only a small minority knew whether or not the Gospels were part of the Bible. Even first class honours students of Philosophy confused Paul with Moses and thought that Jesus wrote Genesis. Yet 88% of Italians describe themselves as Roman Catholics, three quarters claimed they kept a Bible at home, 79% felt their lives were “protected by God” although only 32% described themselves as “regular churchgoers”, compared with 45% in the US and 55% in Poland. However, 6 out of 10 Italians thought the Bible should be taught at schools.
Monsignor Vincenzo Paglia, Bishop of Terni and head of the Catholic Biblical Federation in Italy, said the survey “offers a challenge to which we must respond”. Monsignor Gianfranco Ravasi, head of the pontifical Council for Culture would have liked to see the Vatican included in the survey where “it might well have produced some surprising results”.
The XII Ordinary General Assembly of the Synod of Bishops, was held from 5th-26th October 2008 and, presided over by Pope Benedict XVI, took as its theme “The Word of God in the Life and Mission of the Church”. On the evening of Sunday the 6th October, Pope Benedict kicked off a Bible-reading marathon that lasted for seven days and needed 1,200 people to complete the task. Orthodox and Evangelical church leaders also participated in the reading that finished with the Book of Revelation a week later. The Pope may have read the first verses from Genesis, Andrea Bocelli may have sung excerpts, but it remains to be seen whether the Italian Roman Catholic public begin reading the Bible in more earnest.
According to the Venetian philosopher Massimo Cacciari, the Roman Catholic Church is to blame for this lack of biblical knowledge as it has kept a monopoly on the teaching of the Bible and imposes Episcopal authorisation upon those who teach religious education. So despite the fact that the 40 years following Vatican II have seen a steady increase in the number of homes possessing a Bible and the onset of the Internet age and multimedia communication, for many Italians the Bible remains a closed, mysterious book.
Source: La Stampa online, TimesOnline, ADNKronos international
Do you think it’s any different in Mexico, Spain, Brazil, Argentina, Colombia, Africa, Ecuador, France, Germany, Phillipines, Australia or Ireland?
- Status