Can Catholics learn things from Protestants... things they need to learn?

[nsper7]

See the topic of the thread; you obviously know it all and what God has said makes no difference to you; unless you change you will not see heaven and you can put that in the bank.
JB

I am rejecting what you say, not what God says. Since when do you speak for God? You can quote Scripture, but that doesn’t mean you’re quoting it properly. After all, if you were, you’d be Catholic.

 

[nsper7]

Is Jesus the living Word? Is the Bible the Word of God? A simple yes or no will suffice on both questions…thank you.
JB

Is the Church the pillar and foundation of Truth? A simple yes or no will suffice…

 

[PeterMuz]

I agree with 1ke. I’d also like to point out that being “born again” does not give you a straight ticket to Heaven. Those people still go to purgatory like most everyone else.

 

[JohnnyBeth]

Thats your interpretation. Mine is that when St. Paul speaks of “works of the law” it is in reference to dietary restrictions, sacrifices, ritual purification, etc. He is not speaking of obedience to the moral law. If if you say obedience is irrelevant, I know someone who might disagree…His name is Jesus. “If you love me, keep my commandments” When he taught us to pray, we are instructed to pray for the ability to do God’s will. Thats what the whole “thy will be done” means. It is not meant to suggest that any mere mortal can truly thwart God’s will. The key to salvation is obedience. Again, saying a prayer is not like buying a plane ticket. True salvation requires a true change in heart. Not just acting differently, but becoming a different person.

Who said obedience was not necessary; He is both King and Savior. Focus on the issue, which is being declared righteous before God, which is the beginning of salvation. Santification is where the obedience begins and will never end until we are in perfect obedience, which happens at one’s glorification. Water baptism will not give you justification or infuse any salvivic grace.

Works of the Law; what is the law? The ten commandments would certainly fall into that category. You are missing the entire point; justification is based on faith alone; period.

 

[nsper7]

Who said obedience was not necessary; He is both King and Savior. Focus on the issue, which is being declared righteous before God, which is the beginning of salvation. Santification is where the obedience begins and will never end until we are in perfect obedience, which happens at one’s glorification. Water baptism will not give you justification or infuse any salvivic grace.

Works of the Law; what is the law? The ten commandments would certainly fall into that category. You are missing the entire point; justification is based on faith alone; period.

Nice bit of opinion there. For the first paragraph, I can find Protestant writings that will disagree with you on multiple accounts. ‘Free Grace’ theologians will disagree that obedience is necessary for Salvation. Anglicans and Lutherans will disagree that Baptism imparts no grace for they both believe in infant baptism. I am giving an oversimplification here, but needless to say, just about anything you say can be challenged by another Protestant’s writings, all of whom point to Scripture as their authority.

 

[JohnnyBeth]

Is that talking about the Bible…or is it talking about the Living Word of God, Jesus Christ the God-Man? It is talking about Jesus, not the printed Word. How do we know? Next verse down:
And before him no creature is hidden, but all are open and laid bare to the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
“and before him” not “it”, “him”. Oh wait theres more! In verse 14 inspired author is talking about the High Priest! We know that is Jesus. You have misidentified the use of “word” to simply be referring to a book, when in fact, it is Jesus. You really need to check into context. It can help your interpretation a great deal.

Do a word search on the phrase “it is written”; then come back and make your point, but I will help you from the mouth of Jesus.
Mt 4:4 But He answered and said, "It is written, ‘MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.’ "

Where do we find what proceeded from the mouth of God? The Catholic Church?

 

[CWBetts]

Can you be saved apart from the sacraments? If so how? If not why?

The Sacraments are not human works. Sacraments are signs instituted by Christ that confer Grace, not by our own merit, but by the mercy of God. The ordinary means of salvation requires partaking of the Sacraments, but let me explain why they are not human works. Simply put, we aren’t doing anything. We present ourselves, but God is doing the work.

1. Baptism: God is washing away our sin. All we are doing is getting wet. I am not washing my own sin away. The minister is only acting as a “stand in” for Christ (In persona Christi).
2. Confirmation: God is bestowing the fullness of the Holy Spirit. I am not ordering the Holy Spirit to come down.
3. Holy Communion: The priest is not “taking Jesus out of Heaven,” but rather God is causing heaven and earth to intersect as a memorial to the crucifixion, which we participate in with the re-presenting of the sacrifice in a bloodless manner.
4. Confession: God is forgiving our sin. The Priest is acting in persona Christi. All we are doing is repenting of our sin, as we are instructed to in the Scriptures.
5. Anointing of the Sick: God heals us and prepares us to meet Him.
6. Holy Orders: God provides the grace for Priests to live according to their vows.
7. Holy Matrimony: God sanctifies the marital union.

Also keep in mind that 1, 2, 6, and 7 places an indelible mark on the soul. Once these Sacraments are received, they cannot in any way be “undone”. Also keep in mind that Catholics don’t talk about “doing” the Sacraments, but “receiving,” further showing that it is not what we do, but what God does.

 

[nsper7]

Do a word search on the phrase “it is written”; then come back and make your point, but I will help you from the mouth of Jesus.
Mt 4:4 But He answered and said, "It is written, ‘MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.’ "

Where do we find what proceeded from the mouth of God? The Catholic Church?

Funny…when Jesus uttered those words, the only Scripture at that time was the Old Testament. And, yes Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium are authoritative. Where in Scripture does it say ONLY Scripture is authoritative? Catholics would agree that Scripture (which includes those OT books that Luther rejected) is authoritative, but so is Tradition and the Magesterium (the teaching/interpreting authority of the Church).

 

[JohnnyBeth]

I will quote from the Catechism of St. Pius X, published ca. 1880.

Do you personally believe that…again a simple yes or no will suffice; you seem to have trouble saying yes or no.

 

[nsper7]

Do you personally believe that…again a simple yes or no will suffice; you seem to have trouble saying yes or no.

Yes.

 

[JohnnyBeth]

I am rejecting what you say, not what God says. Since when do you speak for God? You can quote Scripture, but that doesn’t mean you’re quoting it properly. After all, if you were, you’d be Catholic.

I am repeating what God has already said and in accurate context; you reject God, not me. You can tell yourself otherwise, but still does not change the reality and the facts. You will be without excuse because you have been told the truth and you willingly exercised your own free-will in denying it.

 

[nsper7]

I am repeating what God has already said and in accurate context; you reject God, not me. You can tell yourself otherwise, but still does not change the reality and the facts. You will be without excuse because you have been told the truth and you willingly exercised your own free-will in denying it.

That fact that you are not Catholic proves that you are misquoting and misusing Scripture.

 

[nsper7]

I am repeating what God has already said and in accurate context; you reject God, not me. You can tell yourself otherwise, but still does not change the reality and the facts. You will be without excuse because you have been told the truth and you willingly exercised your own free-will in denying it.

But you have articulated arguments that many Protestants would disagree with. Are you saying they are all wrong too?

 

[CWBetts]

I am repeating what God has already said and in accurate context; you reject God, not me. You can tell yourself otherwise, but still does not change the reality and the facts. You will be without excuse because you have been told the truth and you willingly exercised your own free-will in denying it.

In context? Sorry, wrong answer. I pointed out one of your misuses (in Hebrews) to show that the “word of God,” taken in context, is a reference to Jesus, and not the written word. You never responded to that post though. I wonder why?

 

[JohnnyBeth]

Is the Church the pillar and foundation of Truth? A simple yes or no will suffice…

no

1Co 3:11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Eph. 2 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, 20 **having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner {stone,} **21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord

themelios=foundation 1. laid down as a foundation, the foundation (of a building, wall, city) 2. metaph. the foundations, beginnings, first principals
a) of institution or system of truth

1Ti 3:15 but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.

**hedraiōma=support **1. a stay, prop, support

Dispite what is before you; you still will refuse the truth.

 

[nsper7]

no

1Co 3:11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Eph. 2 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner {stone,} 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord

themelios=foundation 1. laid down as a foundation, the foundation (of a building, wall, city) 2. metaph. the foundations, beginnings, first principals
a) of institution or system of truth

1Ti 3:15 but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.

**hedraiōma=support **1. a stay, prop, support

Dispite what is before you; you still will refuse the truth.

If only Scripture is authoritative, then how do I know your interpretation is correct? And you definitely have an interpretation as do all the myriad of Protestant denominations.

 

[JohnnyBeth]

I agree with 1ke. I’d also like to point out that being “born again” does not give you a straight ticket to Heaven. Those people still go to purgatory like most everyone else.

If you find yourself in a place or state of purgatory; don’t plan on leaving.

 

[nsper7]

If you find yourself in a place or state of purgatory; don’t plan on leaving.

Better hope you’re interpretation of Scripture is correct.

 

[CWBetts]

If you find yourself in a place or state of purgatory; don’t plan on leaving.

Purgatory is in the Scriptures. Don’t you find it funny, that at the end we will be judged by our works? Anything not done for God will be consumed by fire…interesting

 

[JohnnyBeth]

Nice bit of opinion there. For the first paragraph, I can find Protestant writings that will disagree with you on multiple accounts. ‘Free Grace’ theologians will disagree that obedience is necessary for Salvation. Anglicans and Lutherans will disagree that Baptism imparts no grace for they both believe in infant baptism. I am giving an oversimplification here, but needless to say, just about anything you say can be challenged by another Protestant’s writings, all of whom point to Scripture as their authority.

I agree with that, but nothing I have said can be challended in light of God’s word; you cannot successfully challenge what God has said. It is just as God said things would be; most religious people will be in hell forever; that’s a fact Jack! Matt. 7

JB