S
SuperLuigi
Guest
I would also like to add that feigned ignorance only adds to the gravity of sin. :thankyou:
- Status
LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
Whenever you cite a website as saying this or that, it would be helpful if you included a link to the web page where you found the quotation, so that someone could easily check it for themselves. That’s what the button is for that looks like a globe with two links of a chain in front of it.
I
ishii
Guest
Yes Leafbyniggle - I’m aware of how to link to a web page. I didn’t think anyone would be challenging me on it but since you asked, here it is:
usccb.org/bible/1john/5/#70005016-l
Ishii
S
saintjohnxxiii
Guest
Excellent clarification Ishii.
LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
It’s not to challenge you. It is to see with wider context from which that quote came. Thanks for the link.
But I am having trouble finding the quote that defines blasphemy as in your quote on the USCCB website.
R
Ridgerunner
Guest
It does no good. My wife had a party office on the state level and delivered a speech in which she encouraged inclusion and support of prolife Dem candidates. She was told never to do that again because it’s “divisive”.
The Dem party is pretty resolved that there can only be one party position on abortion, and that’s pro-abortion.
Since that time (and it was developing even then) the party changed in other ways as well. It no longer does anything for the poor and working people, so there’s really no reason for a Democrat to remain a Democrat.
Z
zz912
Guest
Rep Pelosi has been personally instructed by her bishop AND the Pope about her support of abortion. She knows what the Church teaches and still continues her support of abortion.
S
steve_b
Guest
As an observation,
Re: “probably referring to” … that statement from the USCCB doesn’t negate what I’ve said earlier.
Allow me to explain
The Greek word (from the Greek NT) used in that passage 1 Jn 5:16…] for “leading to death” ,θάνατον i.e. mortal can mean physical as well as spiritual death
θάνατον, = “thánatos (derived from 2348 /thnḗskō, “to die”) – physical or spiritual death; (figuratively) separation from the life (salvation) of God forever by dying without first experiencing death to self to receive His gift of salvation.”
And the Church teaches, one who is in mortal sin is spiritually dead 1033 . If that person dies (physically) in mortal sin then they won’t inherit heaven, i.e. won’t be saved.1035
The USCCB which you quote for the source of your quote here, doesn’t contradict what I previously wrote.
From USCCB which you quote (all emphasis mine)
“* 5:13–21] As children of God we have confidence in prayer because of our intimate relationship with him (1 Jn 5:14–15). In love, we pray (1 Jn 5:16–17) for those who are in sin, but not in deadly sin (literally, “sin unto death”), probably referring to apostasy or activities brought on under the antichrist; cf. Mk 3:29; Heb 6:4–6; 10:26–31. Even in the latter case, however, prayer, while not enjoined, is not forbidden. The letter concludes with a summary of the themes of the letter (1 Jn 5:18–20). There is a sharp antithesis between the children of God and those belonging to the world and to the evil one. The Son reveals the God of truth; Christians dwell in the true God, in his Son, and have eternal life. The final verse (1 Jn 5:21) voices a perennial warning about idols, any type of rival to God.”
iow, John is saying [1 Jn 5:16-21] we can know if “a brother” sins mortally, or not mortally. Otherwise he would have said nothing on this.
So Catholics need to be pro active with “a brother” or “a sister” in faith to not sin mortally, through any of the usual means, but also through voting
I
ishii
Guest
You’re way overthinking this. Whatever Ms. Pelosi’s guilt regarding mortal sin (which is for God to judge, not us), I am for voting her and anyone else who advocated legal abortion out of office. It is also not inappropriate to point out that support for legal abortion could constitute grave matter - one of the pre-requisites for a sin to be mortal.
Me - I will leave it up to the bishops to decide on the appropriate action regarding Ms. Pelosi et al and concentrate on my own conscience & actions.
Ishii
S
stinkcat_14
Guest
Where did I say anything different?
L
Lapey
Guest
Right there. You’re welcome.
S
stinkcat_14
Guest
So tell me, how do you know the extent of her knowledge and how much free consent she had. I must say, it does make you wonder what they are teaching these days.
R
ringil
Guest
It is not our job to declare she is in mortal sin.
Not that we should, but what would be the point in even wanting to do so.
We could certainly say that she is guilty of scandal.
S
stinkcat_14
Guest
It would seem that pointing out that something is a grave matter should be sufficient, especially when we have no knowledge of the other two requirements for a mortal sin. I know a young teenager who had an abortion. She didn’t want to have one, but because she was underage her parents forced her to have one. Even she knew it was grave matter and she was upset about it, but did she commit a mortal sin? That is well beyond my paygrade.
L
Lapey
Guest
I said nothing more than judging actions. Which is proper teachings and thankfully still being taught.
Many join the two, judging souls & actions. The two are completely separate. But I hope you would see that judging an action is not judging a soul. It appears you and many who “justify” their actions seem to want me to do neither.
I cannot and must not oblige. Remember what Ezekiel had to say about that?
Ezekiel Chapter 3:
- If I say to the wicked, You shall surely die—and you do not warn them or speak out to dissuade the wicked from their evil conduct in order to save their lives—then they shall die for their sin, but I will hold you responsible for their blood.
- If, however, you warn the wicked and they still do not turn from their wickedness and evil conduct, they shall die for their sin, but you shall save your life.
L
Lapey
Guest
What part of your posts contradicts anything I said??? I said we should judge actions; in this case her action cause serious public scandal and is public support of intrinsic evil by formal participation.
We must speak out against her actions and also do everything in our power to keep her and those who go along with her actions, out of office and especially out of power.
Again, a vote for any democrat in the US House of Representatives, puts her one more vote closer to being back in power with control to further the evil which the party stands for as illustrated by the platform. We cannot do that without participating in some way with that evil.
S
stinkcat_14
Guest
In other words, I was never wrong in the first place. I said nothing about actions, I was talking about mortal sin that involves more than actions. So tell me, where did I say anything about judging actions?
You seem to have a hard time with the nuances of a statement. I said nothing about nancy’s actions. I said, and all I said is that we cannot judge whether or not she is guilty or mortal sin? We can both agree that what I said was consistent with Church teaching, I have said absolutely nothing against Church teaching.
All I am after is accuracy. We agree that we cannot judge whether or not nancy is guilty of mortal sin. I have not claimed that her actions were not wrong.
You cannot confuse actions and mortal sin. There is nothing wrong with judging actions, but in my original post I said nothing about actions and focused my comments on the topic of mortal sin.
S
stinkcat_14
Guest
Can you cite the Church teaching that says that one cannot vote for a pro-life politician because of their party affiliation?
L
Lapey
Guest
That’s not above yours or my pay grade. Yes she is in mortal sin for direct participation in an intrinsic evil. It’s okay, you can speak truth; don’t be afraid!
Here’s where the paid grade comes in, is she culpable? Because of the coercion by her parents, I would say they are culpable and not her, but this doesn’t change the fact that the three factors were in this situation.
Grave matter = no doubt
Full knowledge = she admits that she knows it is wrong
Free will = she could have fought, she had that choice even though it would have caused great pain and suffering on her part with her family she could have rejected it. You will not convince me that they dragged her to the doctor bound hand and foot and strapped her to the table and forced the abortion; that didn’t happen.
The culpability of her actions is what is in question, was she completely sane and cognizant of the actions? We could go on, but no matter what, she participated in grave sin. We can surely agree that her parents would face the greater amount of the guilt of these actions.
L
Lapey
Guest
Doesn’t exists in the request you make and as you already know it is not needed, you can use your head to figure it out on your own.
1 + 1 = 2 it’s quite simple.
- Status