Can Christians fully practice their beliefs today?

[AngelusDomini]

Folau broke the terms of his contract; he had received a previous warning from his employers about his use of social media which is on a public setting. That is why he is being released. As Catholics we have contracts in Catholic schools etc., if a member of staff was posting on an open public platform their support of abortion, for example, they could be dismissed. Folau’s post took Scripture out of context and was misjudged to say the least.

 

[Padres1969]

You’re not wrong. Most versions of Christianity are homophobic by nature. Hence best not to talk about it in a society that has decided homosexuality is just fine and is to be defended.

 

[Rozellelily]

Thanks for the well thought out answer.
Even if for economical concerns it would seem unfair they would be allowed to place a gag on players this way.
Ive read sometimes even in circumstances not related to religion where employers have asked employees to sign things that seem unreasonable.

Some posters state they should just keep quiet about their religious beliefs or sign the conditions (even if unfair) or not play but then,if everyone did this,then wouldn’t verse John 15.20 about Christians being persecuted etc become irrelevant/obsolete (referring to non african or Middle East countries) because no one would be stating things openly?

Also if a athlete or actor should be prevented from saying unpopular opinion about gay related issues then does this mean for other unpopular topics too such as anti abortion or ivf etc?

It seems they are selectively gagged only if their view is Christian/traditional.
Eg:every second actor in Hollywood is always loudly proclaiming their views in support or extreme feminism and gay marriage etc.

 

[Rozellelily]

I completely agree that is wasn’t loving what he wrote.
I guess he’s just practicing Christianity in the way he thinks it to be and taking things more “literal” interpretation instead of understanding that no one can read souls except God.

On a “human interaction level” I do think what he stated was wrong/misguided but my concern is more about freedom of religious expression (even if the person is wrong or misguided etc).

I think people should have freedom to state how they believe like for example if a Muslim player stated he didn’t believe men should shake hands with women or hug them,while I don’t agree,and think it’s misguided and potentially damaging,I think he should be entitled to openly state it without repercussions.

As long as a person is not directly threatening or insulting someone.Its different if he said “gay people are disgusting” or worse or made a direct threat to someone who was gay.
Just quoting this bible verse (even if too literally) is unloving but I don’t think should qualify for legal discrimination-whether financially through unemployment or otherwise and it’s a bit sad that society has become this way.
I think the distinction needs to be made between opinion (even unpopular opinion) vs insult because if people can face repurcussions just for anything that offends someone through expressing unpopular opinions (but not direct insults) then doesn’t it becomes a politically correct society which doesn’t accept a diversity of opinions?

Being a Christian, practicing one’s Faith is not telling people they will go to hell, it is sharing the love and mercy of Christ.

At the same time,even if Christians phrased it about Jesus’ love and mercy and stated that living gay relationships was just one sin amongst many others and no greater etc wouldn’t it still be the case that the majority would still perceive this as bigoted and homophobia because they perceive the Christians are seeing gay relationships in a negative and non accepting way?

 

[Rozellelily]

My guess is his view( not my view) is that he feels that to be true to God he has to “tell it as it is”.
Maybe he feels this particularly strongly because Australia is a society where in the media everything is currently strongly talked about pro gay relationships so maybe he feels he needs to state how God sees things (as he believes) to provide people a counter view?
I’m not suggesting what he did was loving but it’s important to keep in mind also the background information of current Australia society for context.
Ie:I think in USA there are both pro and anti gay relationship views expressed in media but here in Australia there are only pro views expressed (I hope that made sense).

 

[Calliope]

Organizations that employ people who’s popularity makes them money, will naturally drop people who do things that decrease their popularity. It’s basic economics.

The same company likely doesn’t care what the accounts payable clerks post on their Facebook page because it has no impact on the company’s income.

If the player posted something about being Anti vaccine, or in support of dog fighting, or anti women, he’d likely be warned by the organization. None of those things have anything to do with Christianity. It’s not just Christian views that are gagged. If he posted about loving your neighbor and giving to the poor they probably wouldn’t bother him.

People can publicly support whatever they want, but if your income depends on popularity, what you post has a greater potential to backfire economically.

I worked with a young man who posted on his Facebook page about wanting to boink one of the managers. He lost his job for posting such and using crude language about a co-worker. This was at a retail store. It’s not just posting religious or conservative things that get people in trouble.

 

[Rozellelily]

Thanks.That makes a lot of sense.

 

[TheLittleLady]

my concern is more about freedom of religious expression

Will you show me any tenant of the Gospel, any word of Scripture (as we are talking about non-Catholics so we cannot reach to Tradition) where Christ commanded Christians to “Put memes on Social Media/signs in your yard/t-shirts on your chest or even words in your mouth that say who is going to hell”?

That is not part of the expression of religion.

Love one another, do good deeds, let your good works shine before men, LOVE YOUR ENEMIES, do good to those who despise you, preach the Good News that Christ has died and risen, do not forsake going to Church, eat my flesh and drink my blood, confess your sins, baptize in the name of the Trinity, those are all things Christ commands in Scripture. Those are the expressions of the Christian Religion.

 

[Rozellelily]

I agree that his statements it’s not the right Christian thing to do as according to my understanding but I make a distinction between what someone does wrong by God vs what should have repercussions by the law or through employment termination etc.
I think people should have free speech to express their beliefs even if expressing it incorrectly,misguidedly,or counterproductively etc.

I don’t know if he decided this is what he felt he’s meant to do as a Christian by forming this opinion himself or it is taught in the church he attends.
Iow I know this isn’t the Catholic belief to do these things but I guess they are taught in some other denoms to believe they are “showing gods ways” by “evangelising” this way.
What I don’t get is why do these standards seem to apply more to Christians whereas some Muslims can follow their practices according to their own understanding (rightly or wrongly) by not shaking hands with women in corporate work settings and not receive any repercussions even though it causes offense to some women.
I don’t particularly think that what they are thinking/doing in this regard is Gods true way either but “we” still allow and tolerate it under freedom of expression.

To put it bluntly,why should a misguided Christian receive repercussions and a misguided Muslim not?
To clarify,I have nothing against Muslims themselves and love them but I just think if there are going to be repercussions it should be across the board and not selective only for certain religions (presumably because that religion is very unpopular currently).

If instead of quoting the Bible verse about hell he had of stated on his Instagram that according to the Bible living out gay relationships is a sin as are many other things,would you still think he should have been sacked?

 

[TheLittleLady]

not shaking hands with women in corporate work settings

There is quite a difference between not shaking hands and telling people they are going to hell.

To draw a comparison, there are different ways to refuse a handshake.

One is to pull back in revulsion and say “Ewwww, I would not touch your hand because you are nasty and vile and beneath me!!” This is the equivalent to saying “homosexuals will burn in hell”.

The other way is to offer a nod, or a bow, and say with a smile “I am pleased to meet you. I do not shake hands for religious (or health, or cultural) reasons.” That is the equivalent to posting “I love you and Jesus loves you! He has come to bring love and peace and forgiveness to all of us!”

according to the Bible living out gay relationships is a sin as are many other things,would you still think he should have been sacked?

Show me where Jesus told us to go into the whole world and tell people they are in sin.

The sacking, that is because he violated a clause in his contract.

My employer has rules about what I can and cannot say/do on social media. I also must live a life that is in according to Catholic teachings. If I decide to go and contradict those things, I fully expect to be fired.

 

[Rozellelily]

One is to pull back in revulsion and say “Ewwww, I would not touch your hand because you are nasty and vile and beneath me!!” This is the equivalent to saying “homosexuals will burn in hell”.

I mean no disrespect but I don’t see it as equivalent that way.
I don’t think when the footballer said homosexuals will go to hell that he meant it as in “homosexuals are nasty and vile and will burn in hell!”
I think he simply wrote the Bible quote as a “matter of fact statement” not meant as an insult/slur.
That still doesn’t make it right but I just think in fairness i should mention how it was stated.
The fact that some people did misperceive it as an insult or threat-is that though the fault of the “author”?
People misperceive things everyday in regards to all sorts of things (whether from other past experiences or simply from misunderstanding or too emotional) but isn’t it more the responsibility of the person who’s misperceiving to correct their understanding/perceptions?
Regarding the situation with the Muslims,they sort of did neither of the two options.Girls mentioned to me that when they extended their hand for a handshake the “office Muslims” in question simply kept their own hand by their side and made no apology,explanation,or greeting smile or nice words.Just a blank stare and eventually the women dropped their own hand/s in embarrassment and “figured out the story”.

As an asides,there have actually been Muslim sportspeople who have come out in support of this Christian footballer and said in their religion they believe the same.

 

[Convert3]

I think people should have free speech to express their beliefs even if expressing it

Many don’t realize that Freedom of Speech only applies to preventing the government from imposing restrictions to free speech. Employers have every right to require their employees to follow certain practices or restrict employees from publicly expressing their personal beliefs that might impact other employees. If the employee doesn’t like it, they can always find another job.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Well, I would find someone telling me that I was going to hell to be quite insulting. YMMV

 

[Shasta-Rose]

Well, this used to be a “Christian country,” and everybody went around wearing the same religion on their sleeves in public.

 

[ZMystiCat]

Speaking from experience:

I live in an area where many cities, streets, and landmarks have Catholic names. I know of at least two noticeable statues - one of St. Claire and one of Mary - in the area. I don’t drive, but I see plenty of Rosaries hanging from people’s rearview mirrors, and I know one person at my apartment as a Catholic Answers bumper sticker.

In my day-to-day life, I can go to Mass weekly without fear. I frequently take Uber to Mass, Confession, Adoration, etc., and I’ve never once felt uncomfortable. Many of the drivers are Catholic, some even members of my parish. At work, my team knows I’m Catholic, and there’s at least one company-wide Christian and one company-wide Catholic group, each with some local groups. There was also recently a question sent out by internal org (can’t remember which one) that asked how the company could improve its products for Christians.

So…yeah…I think we’re doing pretty well for the time being.

 

[Pattylt]

As a secular agnostic I understand the difficulty that our current society is placing on Christians. In the US as well as Australia and England, society used to be predominantly Christian and white. Now all these societies are multicultural and multifaithed.

I firmly believe everyone has the right to express their beliefs (within the laws regarding threats, etc.) in public. Private employers also have a right to protect their name. There have been dramatic changes within society that has caused Christians to lose their status and privileges and we are all adjusting to this. We sometimes screw up and overstep bounds and in doing so, trample on the religious rights of someone. We also are still navigating the fact that Christianity can no longer be assumed of the person on the street and what was once acceptable to say in public, no longer is.

Sometimes, I think some Christians see a loss of a privilege they once had as religious discrimination. Sometimes they really are being discriminated against…we’re all still learning the ropes.

 

[Rozellelily]

I didn’t know that.
I thought that employers could require employees to sign things with terms but they had to be reasonable terms.
This footballer Folau is fighting the execs on it but I don’t know how the outcome will be.
On one hand I think people in public eye have a personal responsibility to really consider the outcome of their words on people,but at the same I don’t think people should be given gag orders.

 

[Rozellelily]

I’m really sorry to hear that.
I didn’t know that NZ was going to pass Euthanasia laws.
I thought your prime minister was good in showing a compassionate and loving response to the Christchurch shootings but I think she went too far/was misguided when she wore a hijab in other settings apart from the mosque.
It’s respectful to wear it in the mosque but in other settings it seems to me misguided because it’s not necessary to wear others religious clothing to sympathy/show them solidarity.

 

[Rozellelily]

It seems US is very different from Australia.
Here none of those things (except for safety of mass) exist especially the workplace things you mentioned.
I remember last year at office Christmas decoration someone put a display of Jesus in the manger and it was such a big deal because it’s simply unwelcome/politically incorrect/unpopular to do such an open thing here.
Majority of people here,especially younger ones but not exclusive,now just see Christmas and Easter as times to spend with family and have work off and without the religious significance.
Still,thankfully at least it’s nothing like Christians often suffer in Middle East etc.

 

[Rozellelily]

At the same time though,some people would find it offensive just the fact that Christianity is not supportive of gay relationships so while no one (well hopefully most people) don’t like to offend another person,people can’t be responsible for everything a person personally feels offended by.
Isn’t it a reality that Christianity (and not just Christianity) dos mention expressing gay relationships as a sin?

(Of course in saying that there are many other sins and this one is no greater than the others and due to our own individual makeup we might be more prone to different sins such as gossip or vanity or unkind word etc)

What I mean though,is how would Christians tell people “the good gospel of Jesus love and saving cross” in they can’t/don’t outline to people what specific things are sins in the first place because it’s not politically correct/could cause offense?
Wouldn’t the person just thinking “save about what and from what??”
Or do you think everyone already by now knows in the first place what are sins according to bible so it’s not necessary to mention?

While public figures (or anyone) shouldn’t be declaring rigidly or with confidence who “will go to hell” as no one can play God and know individuals circumstance.(For Eg:sadly a man who feels/lives in gay relationship today may have been sexually abused by a man as a child and not make the connection for why he feels attracted to male relationships as an adult and may feel hidden shame etc.)
At the same time isn’t it a reality that the Bible does still talk about gay relationships and hell in generalities but doesn’t it seem these days people have to leave out/ignore/dismiss certain parts of the Bible because in countries which are pro gay marriage it will be received with offense?

Even to say these days in a respectful way that there are some things that are Gods ways like children ideally having a father and mother and not ivf or same sex parents can cause some people to be offense and think the persons a bigot.