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claudine
Guest
I’m living in France now again. Everyone wearing a large back pack is suspect from my point of view, unfortunately.
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attaininggrace
Guest
I agree, Rozellelily, that Qantas and its CEO probably have a lot to do with it. They have Emirates as partners - an airline funded by the UAE which punishes gays very harshly!
Also, I think that there is a point that Folau should not receive a greater punishment than the other football players involved in scandals. What about disrespect for women? Many footballers don’t appear to give a darn about that!
Also, I think that there is a point that Folau should not receive a greater punishment than the other football players involved in scandals. What about disrespect for women? Many footballers don’t appear to give a darn about that!
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CRV
Guest
I personally don’t think he did anything wrong - after listing various sinners link to pic/post here, he does say Repent! Only Jesus Saves. Which is a lot different than just flatly stating they are going to hell.
He did not single out homosexuals, yet they are largely the ones who’ve taken offense!
Those Catholic/Christians living that lifestyle I’d guess would already have heard of this Bible passage and would be lapsed in their Faith, and may not care anymore what their Faith or Bible says, but are happy in their lifestyle, so I don’t think it would really matter very much to them.
And as for atheists - well they don’t believe in God anyway or the Bible, so saying they are going to go to hell if they don’t repent, I would think would not matter one whit to them either.
He wasn’t wearing his jersey or at an official function on behalf of his club, so saying that in his personal downtime he can’t express his own opinion using generalities, in my opinion is wrong. It would be different if he “named and shamed” individuals publicly.
I also wonder if perhaps the club may be conscious that they have fans who identify as LGBT and may as a result of this cancel their membership/stop patronizing the sport by not purchasing tickets to their games or purchasing sport memorabilia of the club etc. Social media “black listing” can have a huge financial impact on a business, and it is a business. Businesses are in the game to make a profit. Any threat to this has to be removed. So perhaps the thinking is that the financial damage of a payout to Israel Folau in the long term would be less than the potential financial loss from sources of income impacted as a result or backlash from the community, or their financial backers.
I agree in that you can’t openly state your beliefs publicly on social media where homosexual sexual practices, contraception or abortion is concerned (if it is against and not in support of same) without suffering backlash in one form or another.
He did not single out homosexuals, yet they are largely the ones who’ve taken offense!
Those Catholic/Christians living that lifestyle I’d guess would already have heard of this Bible passage and would be lapsed in their Faith, and may not care anymore what their Faith or Bible says, but are happy in their lifestyle, so I don’t think it would really matter very much to them.
And as for atheists - well they don’t believe in God anyway or the Bible, so saying they are going to go to hell if they don’t repent, I would think would not matter one whit to them either.
He wasn’t wearing his jersey or at an official function on behalf of his club, so saying that in his personal downtime he can’t express his own opinion using generalities, in my opinion is wrong. It would be different if he “named and shamed” individuals publicly.
I also wonder if perhaps the club may be conscious that they have fans who identify as LGBT and may as a result of this cancel their membership/stop patronizing the sport by not purchasing tickets to their games or purchasing sport memorabilia of the club etc. Social media “black listing” can have a huge financial impact on a business, and it is a business. Businesses are in the game to make a profit. Any threat to this has to be removed. So perhaps the thinking is that the financial damage of a payout to Israel Folau in the long term would be less than the potential financial loss from sources of income impacted as a result or backlash from the community, or their financial backers.
I agree in that you can’t openly state your beliefs publicly on social media where homosexual sexual practices, contraception or abortion is concerned (if it is against and not in support of same) without suffering backlash in one form or another.
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There no requirement in the Qur’an, or Sunnah, for Muslim women to wear a face veil (a niqab). Female members of my Moroccan family wear the hijab in public (apart from an aunt, who wears no headcover at all). Very few Moroccan women wear the niqab. Those that do tend to be the wives of puritans; a minority group, not only in Morocco, but in the world-wide Muslim community as a whole. Non-Muslim women are not required to wear the hijab at all; my wife – a Catholic – does not. Nip onto YouTube and watch the Pope’s recent Mass in Rabat. Take look at the women in the congregation. How many are wearing hijab and niqab? None that I can see. They are dressed as all Christian women in that country are dressed. That is their right.
I visited Morocco as a Christian many times. On one occasion I was injured in a fall. A group of young Muslim men came to my assistance. One removed his shirt, and used it to stem the blood from my headwounds. A Muslim taxi driver, who was parked close by, took me – and my wife and son – first to one hospital, and then to another. No charge. This same driver then waited for three hours (I was discharged at around 1am), without being asked. We were unable to pay all of the £345 (equivalent) fee for treatment (there is no NHS in Morocco). The taxi driver paid just under half; again, without being asked. My son pre-booked that same driver to take my wife and I from Rabat to Casablanca airport. My wife had to persuade the driver (firmly) to accept full payment for all that he had done for us. He knew – from the start – that we were not Muslims. That made no difference.
Your attitude to Moroccans reminds me of the tale of a monk who was travelling from London to Edinburgh. Just short of York he met a man from Edinburgh who was travelling to London. They got talking. ‘Tell me,’ said the monk. ‘What are Edinburgh folk like? ‘Dreadful!’ replied the man. ‘Hate filled liars; cheats; rogues of blackest hue!’ ‘Ah, said the monk. ‘I’m sorry to say that you will find Londoners every bit as dreadful!’
The monk walked on. Near Newcastle he met another Edinburgh man, heading for London. They got talking. ‘Tell me,’ said the monk. ‘What are Edinburgh folk like? ‘Wonderful!’ replied the man. ‘Honest; loving; kind; the very best of folk! ‘Ah, said the monk. ‘I’m delighted to say that you will find Londoners every bit as wonderful!’
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Rozellelily
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There are many warm,good hearted and lovely Muslims without doubt.
At the same time,I don’t think it makes @claudine experience/concerns not valid because your experience in Morocco was from a mans point of view but hers was from a woman’s.
This might sound controversial,but in my opinion unfortunately there is a excessive focus from some muslims to view all male female interaction through the eyes of “potential sexual relationship” so even something like buying groceries could feel uncomfortable for a woman.
Even something widely accepted as a “formal greeting” in European and “western” counties like shaking hand is not seen in a “innocent way” by some Muslims if done with the opposite sex.
So when some Muslims immigrate from Algeria,Tunisia etc to such a liberal country like France it can be a real culture shock & some respond negatively.
It’s debatable how much is due to actual Islam vs cultural factors as all my experiences with Turkish people have been positive and there are also Muslims in my background-Bosnian-and are not this way.
“Those mentalities” seem to come more from some people from Middle East,or Africa.
At the same time,I don’t think it makes @claudine experience/concerns not valid because your experience in Morocco was from a mans point of view but hers was from a woman’s.
This might sound controversial,but in my opinion unfortunately there is a excessive focus from some muslims to view all male female interaction through the eyes of “potential sexual relationship” so even something like buying groceries could feel uncomfortable for a woman.
Even something widely accepted as a “formal greeting” in European and “western” counties like shaking hand is not seen in a “innocent way” by some Muslims if done with the opposite sex.
So when some Muslims immigrate from Algeria,Tunisia etc to such a liberal country like France it can be a real culture shock & some respond negatively.
It’s debatable how much is due to actual Islam vs cultural factors as all my experiences with Turkish people have been positive and there are also Muslims in my background-Bosnian-and are not this way.
“Those mentalities” seem to come more from some people from Middle East,or Africa.
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Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut.
Your comments on buying groceries struck a chord. Some years ago, my wife and I were visiting our family in Salé (adjacent to Rabat). Near the family home is a string of shops. One morning my wife announced her intention to ‘pop out’ to buy something. My daughter-in-law (Sara) advised against it. She insisted on accompanying my wife. The streets of Morocco are (in the main) the preserve of young men; some of whom view Western women as fair game for the kind of harassment UK women can receive from building-site workers (cat-calls; suggestive remarks, etc); and – more rarely – physical contact. Sara – and other female members of my family – do shop alone, and never experience harassment. One reason – perhaps the major reason – is that (of course) they speak Arabic, and know exactly how to shame a man whose behaviour is unacceptable! Most Western women (tourists in the main) are not in this position. It is also the case that lone Western women are more likely to be the subject of aggressive begging. Such behaviour is illegal in Morocco, but remains a nuisance.
I need to close now. God willing, I’ll return to the matter of male/female relationships.
Have a great day, and God bless.
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claudine
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I’m sorry you feel that way about me. I lived in a medium sized town with no christian church in it. More southerly and more eastern Morocco where a lot of women wore their faces veiled.
I chose to wear a full jilbab and niquab because I was sexually harrassed. when I was harassed, every time it happened and the whole time I was in morocco I was wearing what is considered world wide as muslim cover for women, loose fitting full length garment and hijab fully covering all my hair and neck, but not my face and hands. In order to prevent the harasment I purchased niquab and floor length loose fitting thick fabric jilbab and gloves. My niquab had three veils and the last had a guaze over the eye area so that also covered my eyes with a gauze so my skin colour (is very white ) was also covered. I wore that from then on while I lived in Morocco and no men harassed me or gave me any trouble at all ever again.
Perhaps my experince is unusual. I can’t think it is though. One thought I leave with you sir is that ‘white women’ may have more harrasment by muslim men than muslim women experience because perhaps sadly they are seen as some kind of a target. I can think of a few reasons for why white women would be harassed in muslim countries, all of which are not very nice for you to hear.
One reason is that for some reason white westerners are not respected, maybe movies and the internet and advertisements show white women as targets for activities muslim men can’t get away with in their own culture because they would get severe punishment by their laws or families? White women are considered more loose, many drink alcohol dress immodestly and are friendly, outgoing and open, so to speak? Two of my harassers thought it extremely funny to make me feel afraid. You may have some understanding of why that sort of disrespect happened to me than I do, I just don’t know why they found it amusing.
For sure I met nice moroccans. But many men, both professionals and businessmen were not respectful. I am a married, American, well educated woman who is turning 70 years old this fall and has lived most of my life in Europe speaking several languages.
I don’t know why people insist that women don’t have to wear face and all body coverings when it is such a good protective measure for women in muslim countries whether they are muslim or not. Especially for women of white skin!
Please try to open your mind a little to think what life might be like for others who are doing their best to fit in to a muslim culture!
I chose to wear a full jilbab and niquab because I was sexually harrassed. when I was harassed, every time it happened and the whole time I was in morocco I was wearing what is considered world wide as muslim cover for women, loose fitting full length garment and hijab fully covering all my hair and neck, but not my face and hands. In order to prevent the harasment I purchased niquab and floor length loose fitting thick fabric jilbab and gloves. My niquab had three veils and the last had a guaze over the eye area so that also covered my eyes with a gauze so my skin colour (is very white ) was also covered. I wore that from then on while I lived in Morocco and no men harassed me or gave me any trouble at all ever again.
Perhaps my experince is unusual. I can’t think it is though. One thought I leave with you sir is that ‘white women’ may have more harrasment by muslim men than muslim women experience because perhaps sadly they are seen as some kind of a target. I can think of a few reasons for why white women would be harassed in muslim countries, all of which are not very nice for you to hear.
One reason is that for some reason white westerners are not respected, maybe movies and the internet and advertisements show white women as targets for activities muslim men can’t get away with in their own culture because they would get severe punishment by their laws or families? White women are considered more loose, many drink alcohol dress immodestly and are friendly, outgoing and open, so to speak? Two of my harassers thought it extremely funny to make me feel afraid. You may have some understanding of why that sort of disrespect happened to me than I do, I just don’t know why they found it amusing.
For sure I met nice moroccans. But many men, both professionals and businessmen were not respectful. I am a married, American, well educated woman who is turning 70 years old this fall and has lived most of my life in Europe speaking several languages.
I don’t know why people insist that women don’t have to wear face and all body coverings when it is such a good protective measure for women in muslim countries whether they are muslim or not. Especially for women of white skin!
Please try to open your mind a little to think what life might be like for others who are doing their best to fit in to a muslim culture!
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Many thanks for your reply. God willing, I’ll respond before - or during - the weekend. Stuff to do in the meantime.
I’m 74 this Winter, by the way; so have a few years on you
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pulchraesamicamea
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As a person living in South Korea and Korean by ethnicity, South Korea has freedom of religion but the unstable situation with SK’s government and the increasing threat by North Korea are making Christians lose values of Christianity. South Korea has been ranked as one of the most prosperous countries in Asia, but the situation in SK is not very good right now.
We have a Catholic president. However, due to the rebelling Liberty Korea Party (i.e. the opposition party) that has been continuously causing riots, protests, and disorder in South Korea, the presidency is not in a good reputation. I’m not entirely sure why they’re causing so much protests and calling the president to end his presidency. I won’t go into detail but there has been quite a dispute. This is not the only time that the Liberty Korea Party has caused problems, even if it was not the main party.
Also, North Korea fired projectiles to the ocean to threaten the US and South Korea very recently. The South Korean supreme court just ruled against anti-abortion laws.
I’m not really sure what’s going on anymore.
We’re just not stable politically or in our Catholic values right now.
We have a Catholic president. However, due to the rebelling Liberty Korea Party (i.e. the opposition party) that has been continuously causing riots, protests, and disorder in South Korea, the presidency is not in a good reputation. I’m not entirely sure why they’re causing so much protests and calling the president to end his presidency. I won’t go into detail but there has been quite a dispute. This is not the only time that the Liberty Korea Party has caused problems, even if it was not the main party.
Also, North Korea fired projectiles to the ocean to threaten the US and South Korea very recently. The South Korean supreme court just ruled against anti-abortion laws.
I’m not really sure what’s going on anymore.
We’re just not stable politically or in our Catholic values right now.
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TheLittleLady
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Read forums here, some Catholics have exactly the same ideas!
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claudine
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Everything is good and for the best.
I am in good health and get lots of walking excersize, so that is something to be very grateful for along with faith and to be given the freedom to exist at all by The Creator of All.
I mentioned my age to demonstrate what I felt was a sort of absurdity in being harassed. Probably with all the layers of modest clothing over my body and neck, all that fabric and the childish face I seem never to have lost it didn’t occur to them I could have been their grandmother, even a great grandmother!
I am in good health and get lots of walking excersize, so that is something to be very grateful for along with faith and to be given the freedom to exist at all by The Creator of All.
I mentioned my age to demonstrate what I felt was a sort of absurdity in being harassed. Probably with all the layers of modest clothing over my body and neck, all that fabric and the childish face I seem never to have lost it didn’t occur to them I could have been their grandmother, even a great grandmother!
ROFL. Excellent! I have good health, too, thank God…but am rather lazy outside of work! My idea of exercise is raising and lowering my eyelids 50 times every morning before getting out of bed. Add extra weight - in the form of paperclips - and I could probably manage 25. Here’s the thing: About a year ago my wife bought me a rather nice rowing machine that I keep in my study. I haven’t used it for quite a while…but I step over it TWICE A DAY to get - and to return - my work clothes! How crackers is that!!! Ttfn. Stuff to do.Everything is good and for the best.
I am in good health and get lots of walking excersize, so that is something to be very grateful for along with faith and to be given the freedom to exist at all by The Creator of All.
I mentioned my age to demonstrate what I felt was a sort of absurdity in being harassed. Probably with all the layers of modest clothing over my body and neck, all that fabric and the childish face I seem never to have lost it didn’t occur to them I could have been their grandmother, even a great grandmother!
God bless you and your husband…and have a great day.
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Pattylt
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I have one of those thingy’s too! I dry my laundry on it.
Wonderful. Now that’s what I call style.
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Salibi
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This is a bit…excessive. And I don’t think it was necessary in a country like Morocco, which, unlike Saudi Arabia where I lived for three years, actually has Christian churches. When we lived in Arabia, my mother used to go out with an uncovered head all the time- no one would say a word to us except a few conservatives who were in no way officials. My mum did wear the abaya, however.
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Salibi
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Indeed, this is problem even where I live in the Middle East. The Arabs come here to drink and party and have sex, things they can’t easily do in their countries, and consequently they started seeing us as a loose country, a loose people. In Arabia I had to bear with several Saudis claiming that women of my country are all whores, simply because we are non-Muslim and are extremely Westernized in their opinion (although in my opinion we would benefit from more Westernization).
I have several female friends who got catcalled and verbally shamed by some Arab tourists when they were wearing clothes that were quite unremarkable: tank tops and some shorts, in the summer.
I see you are French. It’s a pleasure to make your acquaintance. We partially share French heritage, it would seem; my country, Lebanon, is (regrettably) a former French territory. In Lebanon we still consider France as “la mère du Liban. “
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claudine
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I thought I would try the full cover with niquab because of the rude attention I had gotten. It worked, I was treated with respect when totally covered. I had the sense I was no longer a target of any kind as long as my white skin completely covered and I never used my voice, because I know i have an accent when speaking french. I encoirage women to cover when in muslim culture, out of respect for their culture and for safety.
Yes what you say about arabs escaping to another country to do things they could get severely punished for in their own is definately true. Sad.
I wish Islam worked better than it does.
Yes what you say about arabs escaping to another country to do things they could get severely punished for in their own is definately true. Sad.
I wish Islam worked better than it does.
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CJS
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In my opinion what you describe is not practicing Christianity, in fact I feel it is just the opposite.
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claudine
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Where I was in the souther area at the edge of the desert and when we traveled to Merrakesh there were many women and even men who wore their faces covered. Women wore jilbab and niquab everywhere, more the further south and east we were. In many near desert towns Berber clothes were a lot of large fabrics draped over and around the body with the face covered below the eyes, by men and women. Men used turbans fashioned from scarves usually with an end left loose for covering the lower face. I think its typical desert attire, but even when the dust and sand is not blowing both men and women cover their faces.
I have not been to any other muslim country except morocco. Living in muslim neighborhoods in europe, in spain and in france, I see full cover with just a small part of the face showing to be standard here. There are a few younger women who wear western clothes with head scarves, but there aren’t that many in the neighborhoods that are majority muslim. Muslim neighborhoods in europe are clearly muslim, there isn’t as much integration here as there seems to be in north america.
You describe Saudi Arabia as much more tolerant than anything we experienced so far.
I have not been to any other muslim country except morocco. Living in muslim neighborhoods in europe, in spain and in france, I see full cover with just a small part of the face showing to be standard here. There are a few younger women who wear western clothes with head scarves, but there aren’t that many in the neighborhoods that are majority muslim. Muslim neighborhoods in europe are clearly muslim, there isn’t as much integration here as there seems to be in north america.
You describe Saudi Arabia as much more tolerant than anything we experienced so far.
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