Can doing what I Assume is wrong be a sin?

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edward_george said:
I’m not saying that you can sin by accident. What I am saying is that certain actions are not objectively sinful, even if we might think they are. If I think that eating a candy bar is a sin, even though it is not under the circumstances, then it is still not a sin. If I do an action, whether sinful or not, and intend to offend God in so doing, my intention is sinful. For every action there is the gravity of the action and the disposition of the agent.

-ACEGC
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read my post above…
 
edward_george said:
I’m not saying that you can sin by accident. What I am saying is that certain actions are not objectively sinful, even if we might think they are. If I think that eating a candy bar is a sin, even though it is not under the circumstances, then it is still not a sin. If I do an action, whether sinful or not, and intend to offend God in so doing, my intention is sinful. For every action there is the gravity of the action and the disposition of the agent.

-ACEGC
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One should add that one need not “intend to offend God” but only do what one believes is sinful (for whatever reason)…with the needed awareness and consent…and such can be mortal or venial depending…

but see my post above for more important aspects.
 
edward_george said:
I’m not saying that you can sin by accident. What I am saying is that certain actions are not objectively sinful, even if we might think they are. If I think that eating a candy bar is a sin, even though it is not under the circumstances, then it is still not a sin. If I do an action, whether sinful or not, and intend to offend God in so doing, my intention is sinful. For every action there is the gravity of the action and the disposition of the agent.

-ACEGC
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If you believe that an action is sinful, then by default you know that that action will offend God and if you go ahead and perform that action, then it is a sin. To say otherwise, is to call Romans 14:14 a false teaching – " … to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it IS unclean … "
 
Lesson learned then: nothing is a sin and I shall do whatever I want because as long as I believe it is not a sin and can rationalize it, then it is not sinful. Thank you Catholic forums for teaching me this.

I am being very sarcastic and still reiterate my original post that NO NO NO, it is is not sinful.
 
So how do you confess a sin that you later found out was not a sin? Surely the priest will give you a lecture on being scruptulous for confessing such a non sin. Likewsie, confessing sins that are not sins before you find out they are not sins will raise similar concerns.

However, I think your earlier post that you reposted summed this dilemma up sufficiently so I will leave it at that.
 
wjp984 said:
So how do you confess a sin that you later found out was not a sin? Surely the priest will give you a lecture on being scruptulous for confessing such a non sin. Likewsie, confessing sins that are not sins before you find out they are not sins will raise similar concerns.

However, I think your earlier post that you reposted summed this dilemma up sufficiently so I will leave it at that.
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You say it simply: I accuse myself of X - I thought it was a grave matter and I committed a mortal sin 1x -I know now it is not (for the future)…

A person with scrupulosity or a difficulty to some degree with scruples should follow their confessor and the principles given them…they as noted just above…tend to see sin where sin is not…or mortal sin for venial etc…they take their “fears” for their conscience…and need instead with the help of their confessor etc to learn to …well read the post above 🙂
 
edward_george said:
I’m not saying that you can sin by accident. What I am saying is that certain actions are not objectively sinful, even if we might think they are. If I think that eating a candy bar is a sin, even though it is not under the circumstances, then it is still not a sin. If I do an action, whether sinful or not, and intend to offend God in so doing, my intention is sinful. For every action there is the gravity of the action and the disposition of the agent.

-ACEGC
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Hi 🙂
I was thinking about your candy bar example. If you ate the candy bar thinking it was wrong, then aren’t you by default kinda doing it to offend God? Because you perceived it to be offensive? Sorry if I confused you, I guess what I’m trying to say is that I don’t see a difference between when it’s a sin and when it’s not, by your logic.
 
WAIT, NEW THOUGHT:

As I mentioned earlier, I know that for something to be a mortal sin it has to fit three criteria/thing/bullets whatever, and they are: the action itself has to be very bad, you have to know it is bad, and choose to do it anyways. SO, knowing that a candy bar is bad and choosing to eat it anyways matches two of the rules, but to be a mortal sin you HAVE to match the three. So, there is no mortal sin there.

Which got me to thinking, maybe there’s a different criteria to venial sins…

BUT, then again, a sin also constitutes a thought/emotion against God too, right? Kinda/sorta?

SO, if you ate a candy bar thinking it would offend God, then you have not sinned in eating the candy bar, the sin SPLITS, you can’t say that eating the candy bar is now a sin (as one of our friends is interpreting the Romans quote) but you CAN say that you have sinned in having the desire to offend God, and trying to do so. Can Romans be interpreted that way?

Therefore (to the two of you), your arguments are combined. A sin DOES take place, but not the one you were thinking of - which lead the other one of you to try to make a distinction.

What do you think? 😃
 
Brighitte said:
WAIT, NEW THOUGHT:

As I mentioned earlier, I know that for something to be a mortal sin it has to fit three criteria/thing/bullets whatever, and they are: the action itself has to be very bad, you have to know it is bad, and choose to do it anyways. SO, knowing that a candy bar is bad and choosing to eat it anyways matches two of the rules, but to be a mortal sin you HAVE to match the three. So, there is no mortal sin there.

Not so…for ones “willing to do what one believes is mortal” is grave matter…

ALL THREE are met.

Grave matter: It is enough for one to believe it is grave matter…then your “will” is choosing something you believe is grave …which of course is grave…
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Compendium of the Catechism --Issued by Pope Benedict XVI
  1. When does one commit a mortal sin?
1855-1861
1874

One commits a mortal sin when there are simultaneously present: grave matter, full knowledge, and deliberate consent. This sin destroys charity in us, deprives us of sanctifying grace, and, if unrepented, leads us to the eternal death of hell. It can be forgiven in the ordinary way by means of the sacraments of Baptism and of Penance or Reconciliation.
  1. When does one commit a venial sin?
1862-1864
1875

One commits a venial sin, which is essentially different from a mortal sin, when the matter involved is less serious or, even if it is grave, when full knowledge or complete consent are absent. Venial sin does not break the covenant with God but it weakens charity and manifests a disordered affection for created goods. It impedes the progress of a soul in the exercise of the virtues and in the practice of moral good. It merits temporal punishment which purifies.

vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html

In the case of the person who believe that Z is a grave matter…and goes ahead and does it with deliberate consent and full knowledge…such fits the three requirements for mortal sin for they are doing what they believe to be a mortal sin…and thus are willing to in effect do what is grave.

Z represents for them a grave thing and they do it willingly with full knowledge…

(again…those with scruples …see my posts above)
 
Brighitte said:
SO, if you ate a candy bar thinking it would offend God, then you have not sinned in eating the candy bar, the sin SPLITS, you can’t say that eating the candy bar is now a sin (as one of our friends is interpreting the Romans quote) but you CAN say that you have sinned in having the desire to offend God, and trying to do so. Can Romans be interpreted that way?

What do you think? 😃
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One does not need to “desire to offend God” to sin or sin mortally…but only to do (knowing and willingly) the thing that is disordered or they believe to be disordered etc…
(those with scruples…do not launch into scruples over this…but follow ones confessor etc)

it can be done for any reason…

If one eats a candy bar believing it is a mortal sin (grave matter)…and one does it with full knowledge and complete consent…yes that is a mortal sin by definition (all things being equal). For one does with knowledge and with full consent what one believes is grave.

This is Catholic Moral Theology.

Again…those with scruples…read my posts above…and obey your confessor 🙂 (and do not scruple about candy or other things 👍)
 
Bookcat said:
One does not need to “desire to offend God” to sin or sin mortally…but only to do (knowing and willingly) the thing that is disordered or they believe to be disordered etc…

it can be done for any reason…

If one eats a candy bar believing it is a mortal sin (grave matter)…and one does it with full knowledge and complete consent…yes that is a mortal sin by definition (all things being equal). For one does with knowledge and with full consent what one believes is grave.

This is Catholic Moral Theology.

Again…those with scruples…read my posts above…and obey your confessor 🙂 (and do not scruple about candy 👍)
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Do they have to truly believe that what they are doing, or does it apply to being unsure, as well?
 
wjp984 said:
Lesson learned then: nothing is a sin and I shall do whatever I want because as long as I believe it is not a sin and can rationalize it, then it is not sinful. Thank you Catholic forums for teaching me this.
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One is also required to have a fully developed conscious
wjp984 said:
I am being very sarcastic and still reiterate my original post that NO NO NO, it is is not sinful.
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Then kindly explain what the Apostle Paul is talking about in Romans 14:14 = " … to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it IS unclean … "
 
Alright, if it is a sin to wrongfully believe something is sinful and therefore do it anways because one has though, wrongfully, believed they were offending God. . .

Is it a sin to be not sure if something is a sin and therefore do it thinking it may or may not be a sin with the knowledge that if it is, then I guess you will have to Confess it.

I think a good example here would be the meat examples. There is no real clear teaching anymore on whether it is sinful to eat meat on Fridays. One does not have to abstain but one is supposed to substitute this with an act of penance. Well what defines that act of penance? What if one chooses to just do nothing and figure what the heck, it’s not enforced anways. Perhaps there are better examples but you get the point.
 
wjp984 said:
Alright, if it is a sin to wrongfully believe something is sinful and therefore do it anways because one has though, wrongfully, believed they were offending God. . .

Is it a sin to be not sure if something is a sin and therefore do it thinking it may or may not be a sin with the knowledge that if it is, then I guess you will have to Confess it.
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But aren’t we suppose to avoid sin at all costs? We pray that we will even attempt to avoid the near occasion of sin. Thus, is we SUSPECT that something MIGHT be a sin, then that should be avoid as well until we get positive clarification one way or the other.
wjp984 said:
I think a good example here would be the meat examples. There is no real clear teaching anymore on whether it is sinful to eat meat on Fridays. One does not have to abstain but one is supposed to substitute this with an act of penance. Well what defines that act of penance? What if one chooses to just do nothing and figure what the heck, it’s not enforced anways. Perhaps there are better examples but you get the point.
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If you know that you are suppose to do something and you do nothing, then that IS a sin of omission. If, on the other hand, you do do something, that’s where the grey area is.
 
Just want to mention again for those out there with scruples …

A person with a difficulty with scruples or with various degrees of scrupulosity needs to follow their confessor and the principles given them for their scruples!

I am again noting this…cause there are a number of persons out there whose posts I have read etc which are in this category… they really need to not “scruple” about the content of this tread…

They are in a different boat than one with a regular conscience…and need to follow their confessor and those principles given them.

For they fear or even believe all sorts of things are grave or are sinful all the time…when such are not…they need to not be thinking everything is a sin …or a mortal sin…or even “fearing it” unreasonably…for they mistake their “fear” for their conscience. They must learn to act against their scruples…their fears…and to even do what they fear is sin but is actually NOT --with the guidance of their confessor / director…and thus they do not “act against conscience here” (as Paul was referring to)…and sin…but act under the advice -direction of their confessor (or other good formation-direction)…and are doing a good thing…conquering their scruples!

Let us all live in Christ!

BC
 
I think choosing to do something you believe is wrong is a sin, but not the action itself, just the choice. (if the action was indeed not sinful to begin with)

And that that action, whatever it may be, can never be mortal if it’s not bad to begin with. (one of the three criteria)
 
wjp984 said:
Lesson learned then: nothing is a sin and I shall do whatever I want because as long as I believe it is not a sin and can rationalize it, then it is not sinful. Thank you Catholic forums for teaching me this.
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If you truly, in all sincerity believe that what you are doing is not wrong then your sins will be punished lightly.

If you choose to believe that everything is right when you already know that there is evil in the world, don’t believe you’re going to fool God with any of it.
 
Brighitte said:
I think choosing to do something you believe is wrong is a sin, but not the action itself, just the choice. (if the action was indeed not sinful to begin with)

And that that action, whatever it may be, can never be mortal if it’s not bad to begin with. (one of the three criteria)
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Catholic Moral Theology would say that yes the choice is mortal sin…and if it carried to action that yes that is a mortal sin. For it is a grave matter (you are afterall doing what you believe is mortal sin) done with full knowledge and deliberate consent.

But Yes of course “objectively” the action does not become “a grave matter” when it is not…

Subjectively the person commits a mortal sin…

(again those with scruples…read forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7279585&postcount=29…and follow your confessor etc…)
 
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