Can God Create a Universe that has an infinite past?

[ReapReason]

Your definitions of “creator” and “cause” must be accepted before the discussion of infinite regress is even able to begin. They have not, and you have not explained why they ought to be.

 

[empther]

Quote:
The reason that the temporal predating is relevant is that the term “creation” involves fabrication; something that does not exist cannot create.

If your God has to pre-date the universe in-order to meaningfully create anything, then I’m afraid that your understanding of God is irrational; regardless of whether my argument succeeds or not. A non-physical timeless being necessarily exists simultaneously with the whole universe. There is no before or after time.

There is no “before” God’s creation of time, ( by creating the changing universe ).
God exists eternally.

Think of this way:
Question: How long did God wait before creating the universe, five minutes, or five trillion years?
Answer: Yes!

 

[reggieM]

If your God has to pre-date the universe in-order to meaningfully create anything, then I’m afraid that your understanding of God is irrational; regardless of whether my argument succeeds or not. A non-physical timeless being necessarily exists **simultaneously **with the whole universe. There is no before or after time. If you don’t agree with the idea that God is non-physical and transcends all time, that’s fine. But your disagreement is really irrelevant to the topic of this thread.

Perhaps the confusion is that you’re using time to define God rather than using God to define time.

God does not pre-date anything since God is not bound by time.

Time, however, post-dates the creation event.
There is no before or after in the existence of God.
However, with things bound by time, and even time itself which is bound by limits and conditions (sequence of events) – these things have a starting point.

God is not measured by time. But everything created (including time) is measured as dependent on God.

The fact that God is the origin of time does not mean that “God comes before time in a succession of events” because God does not create through a succession of events.

Time is measure of changeable things so it cannot be a measure of God.

Even when we say “God is eternal”, that doesn’t mean “God has been around for a long time” – since there is no way that time could measure God’s existence.

Everything created must have an origin.
If time was created, then time has an origin or starting point.
If time was not created, then it is self-existing. How would time be self-existing without anything to measure? If time is measuring other self-existing things then all of this remains unexplained. You would have many self-existing, eternal things – and yet none of them possessing the power to give themselves existence.

The fact that “there was never any time before the existence of the universe and of time itself” does not mean that “time is eternal” – because we use the word “eternal” to mean different things.

When we say “God is eternal” it doesn’t mean that “time always existed” because the word “eternal” (in that sense) doesn’t refer to a linear succession of events but merely “not bound by time”.

 

[TheTrueCentrist]

I think this applies here, as I believe only God is infinite, and this world had to have had a beginning, just as it will ultimatley have an end.

Why must this universe have had a beginning?

Perhaps we could rephrase the question to take time out of the equation, and make things a little easier to think about:
Could God create an infinitely long film reel?

If he could, we can imagine that the film reel is a recording of a universe, and it would take an infinitely long time to play back (ignoring what would happen if it were to be played back infinitely fast)

 

[reggieM]

Could God create an infinitely long film reel?

Yes, but I don’t think that’s what you’re looking for.
God creates beings that will live for an infinitely long life (humans, angels).
But those are “relatively infinite” things – they are infinite in the future.

However, the creation event is an origin point – a beginning. If God created it, then it has a beginning and cannot be infinite in the past.

If he could, we can imagine that the film reel is a recording of a universe, and it would take an infinitely long time to play back (ignoring what would happen if it were to be played back infinitely fast)

True – it would be infinite from the point of creation through an endless future. Every human soul is like that. But that’s different than having an infinite past – which means “no beginning”.

In order to have a succession of events, the succession has to begin at some time. Otherwise, the succession does not exist.

So, you can’t have a string of events that has no beginning – since it will never have gotten started.

 

[Viviphilia]

I consider this thread at the undergraduate level; the OP is simply restating what some theologian-philosophers have been saying for hundreds of years with no variation, addition, or any differentiation whatsoever, and also without acknowledging the sources of the argument.

If you’re going to criticize someone for not citing a source, it seems a little ironic that you didn’t cite it either.

 

[Baelor]

You misunderstand the nature of my argument. My argument is not that you should accept my definition of a Creator, but rather my argument is about whether or not the existence of an infinite regress would make God as a creator of all things redundant as a cause.

That is, can an infinite universe exist without God? This is a scientific question. The answer appears to be, yes.

A non-physical God does not pre-exist the universe.

If he fabricated the universe, then he does, in fact, pre-date the universe, because there was nothing except God, and then there was something.

God is not a temporal entity (in space-time), and thus it is meaningless to claim that he **pre-**exists anything accept as an analogy describing necessity and contingency. There was not a time before the creation of physical reality.

Can you justify this statement?

There is an obvious problem – God can predate time if he existed before time existed. If there was not always space-time, and he caused it to exist, he pre-existed causally. It is not only a matter of temporal existence, but also of causal positioning.

Of course, all this presupposes that the concept of time beginning at a discrete point.

If your God has to pre-date the universe in-order to meaningfully create anything,

One cannot create something that has always existed. God cannot create a universe that regresses infinitely, because it was simply always there.

A non-physical timeless being necessarily exists simultaneously with the whole universe.

Agreed, but there is no reason that it cannot also exist independent of the existence of the universe.

There is no before or after time.

In which case time has always existed, is different from saying that the universe has always existed.

 

[Baelor]

If you’re going to criticize someone for not citing a source, it seems a little ironic that you didn’t cite it either.

I am always happy to provide citations.

For Aquinas’ discussion on this very issue, see here.

 

[ReapReason]

I am always happy to provide citations.

For Aquinas’ discussion on this very issue, see here.

The point is that you didn’t and neither do you have to cite anybody when having a philosophical debate.
Does a mathematician have to cite the founder of every equation in-order to do mathematics? That was a rhetorical question.

Ridiculous.

 

[ReapReason]

That is, can an infinite universe exist without God? This is a scientific question. The answer appears to be, yes.

That is not a scientific question. It is a philosophical question.

 

[ReapReason]

because there was nothing except God, and then there was something.

There is no time before time, and so what you are saying is meaningless.

In which case time has always existed, is different from saying that the universe has always existed.

Physical reality is space-time and energy; these qualities comprise the universe. There was no time before it; and God as I understand it is not physical.

 

[ReapReason]

Agreed,

If you agree that God exists simultaneously with the whole universe, then you should agree that this is also true of Gods creative act. God is timeless (does not change from one state to another potential state). Since there is no temporal division in Gods act or nature, Gods existence is therefore one with his will to create (God timelessly creates; he does not begin to create). This has to be the case in order to speak of Gods creative act rationally, otherwise God cannot logically create anything given the fact that God does not change into other potential states.

but there is no reason that it cannot also exist independent of the existence of the universe.

Did I say that God is not distinct from the universe?

 

[ReapReason]

If you’re going to criticize someone for not citing a source, it seems a little ironic that you didn’t cite it either.

 

[Baelor]

That is not a scientific question. It is a philosophical question.

No, it is not exclusively in the realm of philosophy – if the universe is physically capable of sustaining itself, and this is demonstrably true at a mathematical level, then the answer is both yes and within the realm of science.

There is no time before time, and so what you are saying is meaningless.

I never said that time at some point did not exist, so pointing this out is meaningless. Furthermore, causality exists in the case of creation, and this creation is necessarily temporal: something is not, then is.

Physical reality is space-time and energy; these qualities comprise the universe. There was no time before it; and God as I understand it is not physical.

Time is a concept. It is a measure that we can use to describe changes in state. It is also a property that is present within our universe.

To say that there was no “time” before it is misleading because “time” has not been adequately defined. When you provide the definition that you are using, we can progress with greater efficiency.

Say that the universe came into being, thereby starting time. It is clear that it is then finite. This is because it did not exist, and then existed. We need not understand how it came into being or what happened before it began to exist, nor does science even allow answers to the questions given our current technology and understanding. And yet, the concept of pre- and post-creation exists because the fact that time did not necessarily exist before the universe does not mean that the universe always existed.

If you agree that God exists simultaneously with the whole universe, then you should also agree that this is also true of Gods creative act.

Not at all. That does not follow.

God is timeless (does not change from one state to another potential state).

That is not the definition of timelessness, but rather of stability of state, unless you wish to define “state” as inclusive of time, in which case the statement is tautological anyway. Furthermore, you must define what change of state means before this statement has any meaning itself.

Since there is no temporal division in Gods act or nature, Gods existence is therefore one with his will to create. God timelessly creates; he does not begin to create.

That is largely irrelevant, in fact, and your definition of “creation” remains problematic even given its current vagueness. Nevertheless, it is clear that His will manifests itself in discrete time. There is temporal division in God’s act because the universe operates within the confines of time. Not all conceptions, for example, happen simultaneously. This does not mean that God is bound by time, but rather that any creation of his that is physical is.

This has to be the case in order to speak of Gods creative act rationally, otherwise God cannot logically create anything given the fact that God does not change into other potential states.

That does not follow. God’s creation need not affect God. Either you reject the notion of time completely, arguing that all events happen simultaneously, or you accept the possibility of God existing outside of time in some way while his creation exists within time.

Did I say that God is not distinct from the universe?

I certainly did not claim you did.

 

[Qoeleth]

True reality (i.e. God) ‘exists’, and therefore is Being, not becoming, and therefore changeless, and therefore timeless.

Time is only a perspective, a medium, an interpretation, which we give to this reality, an illusion of diachronicity. Time, like historicity, is a mythology.

Not only God, but WE could re-interpret our mythology of time to give the Universe an infinite past. The only thing real is absolute Being, the Eternal Present, and the history of the Universe is merely a ornament, and interpretative aid, to the present.

But again, like historicity and time, this is also only a fiction. But an equally plausbile one.

Those who say it is illogical- does logic rule God? What is logic if not rules of a language game? Does not God provide both the origin, and an escape-chute, from the hegemony of this language-game?

 

[ReapReason]

No, it is not exclusively in the realm of philosophy – if the universe is physically capable of sustaining itself, and this is demonstrably true at a mathematical level, then the answer is both yes and within the realm of science.

It is not demonstrably true on a mathematical level, and mathematics by itself does not comprise a scientific theory. So no, it is not a scientific theory. You cannot measure an infinite regress through the empirical method. Infinite regression is a philosophical idea.

 

[Jehannette]

I think God can. But only if we stop considering creation in temporal terms.
If we understand Gods creative act to be outside of time, and also that God is the very act of reality in which and through which physical essences have their being, then it would not matter if the universe has an infinite regress, since God is the reality by which all physical events are sustained in being, and therefore all physical events have an existential beginning. All potential events would be contingent upon Gods act of reality in order to exist and remain real because they have no intrinsic reality of their own. This is a form of creation. This of course would require people to understand that there is a objective distinction between the act of reality and the essence of any potential nature.

From Saint Thomas:

As God, in accordance with the perfection of the divine power, can do all things, and yet some things are not subject to His power, because they fall short of being possible; so, also, if we regard the immutability of the divine power, whatever God could do, He can do now. Some things, however, at one time were in the nature of possibility, whilst they were yet to be done, which now fall short of the nature of possibility, when they have been done. So is God said not to be able to do them, because they themselves cannot be done. (Summa Theologica, Ia q. 25 a. 4, ad 2)

 

[Baelor]

It is not demonstrably true on a mathematical level,

“If…”

and mathematics by itself does not comprise a scientific theory.

You are correct; mathematics is more binding than observation-based science, although the former is used in the latter.

You cannot measure an infinite regress through the empirical method. Infinite regression is a philosophical idea.

Infinite regression is by definition immeasurable, even in a philosophical context. Furthermore, infinity exists in mathematics all over the place. Consider the set of real numbers. Consider the set of natural numbers. These are examples of two different expressions of infinity. One set is actually larger than the other.

For the record, the current common scientific belief is that the universe is ~13.8 +/- .11 billion years old, although estimates differ. There is a common point, however: all estimates are of finite ages. Source? Here.

 

[ReapReason]

I never said that time at some point did not exist, so pointing this out is meaningless.

You assert that what I am saying is meaningless. But if there is no time before time, it is meaningless to say that something pre-dates it.

Furthermore, causality exists in the case of creation, and this creation is necessarily temporal: something is not, then is.

You are talking about qualities or natures emerging within the framework of space-time and energy.

Time is a concept. It is a measure that we can use to describe changes in state.

Time is a word we use to describe and measure physical change.

It is also a property that is present within our universe.

It is not a property of God. God is absolute. God does not change from one state into another potential state. God is timeless.

To say that there was no “time” before it is misleading because “time” has not been adequately defined.

It has been adequately defined. You simply don’t like the definition.

Say that the universe came into being, thereby starting time. It is clear that it is then finite.

It is irrelevant, since I am not arguing for the existence of an infinite regress.

This is because it did not exist, and then existed.

There is no time before time.

…that time did not necessarily exist before the universe does not mean that the universe always existed.

I never said that it always existed in the sense of an infinite regress. However, there is no point in time where time does not exist, and there is no before time where time is absent and then begins to exist. Before and after is a temporal concept. God is not a temporal being.

Not at all. That does not follow.

Assertion.

That is not the definition of timelessness, but rather of stability of state.

Timelessness is not a physical state.

Nevertheless, it is clear that His will manifests itself in discrete time. There is temporal division in God’s act because the universe operates within the confines of time.

I don’t understand what you are talking about here. What is discrete time?
Also, God does not change, and thus there is no temporal division in God’s creative act.

That does not follow. God’s creation need not affect God.

I never said that it did. However, God cannot do that which contradicts God’s nature or existence.

Either you reject the notion of time completely, arguing that all events happen simultaneously, or you accept the possibility of God existing outside of time in some way while his creation exists within time.

I never said that there is no change in the Universe. I said that there is no change in God because he is not physical. God being non-physical means that he transcends all space-time, since God is neither confined or defined by physical qualities.
God, being non-physical, exists simultaneously with the entirety of space-time. From Gods perspective, the universe does not change because God is not limited to the dimensions of space-time and thus his being is not limited to any distinct point in space-time. His timeless being is eternally present to all space-time, and there was never a time when he was not. However, the universe changes for us because we are in space-time.

I certainly did not claim you did.

 

[ReapReason]

“If…”

You are correct; mathematics is more binding than observation-based science, although the former is used in the latter.

Irrelevant.

Infinite regression is by definition immeasurable

Irrelevant

Furthermore, infinity exists in mathematics all over the place. Consider the set of real numbers. Consider the set of natural numbers. These are examples of two different expressions of infinity. One set is actually larger than the other.

Irrelevant.

For the record, the current common scientific belief is that the universe is ~13.8 +/- .11 billion years old, although estimates differ. There is a common point, however: all estimates are of finite ages. Source? Here.

So? What has that got to do with this discussion?