Can I forge a document?

[constantconvert]

We cannot be reading the same document.

What she proposes does indeed tend to ‘exoneration of the guilty’.

As things currently stand she is guilty - in the sense of being rightly liable under laws which AFAICS are neither unjust nor immoral, liable for a fine for failing to fill in the paperwork which as a responsible buyer she ought to have known she needed to complete.

She was ignorant, which has never been an excuse under the law, as it is always easy to find out what the law is in regard such matters and is surely the duty of any buyer to find out. She can rightly plead for mercy based on that ignorance, which may mean she is not punished. She can rightly get the original seller to complete the paperwork, which will mean she is no longer guilty.

But she cannot rightly seek to evade the fine - exonerate her guilt - by forging someone else’s signature.

I do not think she is guilty. Who has she harmed? Did she acquire the car illegally? What moral law has she broken? I think ignorance of the law does indeed carry some weight, especially when it’s not a moral transgression.

It occurs to me that this is really about money. If the fine were ten dollars she would have no problem paying it. It seems to me that having to pay thousands of dollars for one small (IMO) mistake seems excessive. Doesn’t it seem excessive to you? You may say that that is not the issue, but it’s seems like it’s not right.

Now, granted I do not have the most attuned moral compass (though believe me, I do try). I’m not saying that forging the signature is right (though if you can consider it a moral sin, I don’t see how), and no, two wrongs do not make a right, but they will keep you from being the victim of extortion

 

[pollynova]

Can you just go to the person you bought it from and have them sign it?

 

[davidv]

I do not think she is guilty. Who has she harmed?

Other tax payers in her area.

Did she acquire the car illegally?

Not relevant.

What moral law has she broken?

Disobedience of lawful authority.

I think ignorance of the law does indeed carry some weight, especially when it’s not a moral transgression.

It occurs to me that this is really about money. If the fine were ten dollars she would have no problem paying it. It seems to me that having to pay thousands of dollars for one small (IMO) mistake seems excessive. Doesn’t it seem excessive to you? You may say that that is not the issue, but it’s seems like it’s not right.

Now, granted I do not have the most attuned moral compass (though believe me, I do try). I’m not saying that forging the signature is right (though if you can consider it a moral sin, I don’t see how), and no, two wrongs do not make a right, but they will keep you from being the victim of extortion

I didn’t say is was mortal sin. I said it was grave matter, one of three components of mortal sin. Please explain what extortion is happening.

 

[Fairwinds]

sure, you could forge it. it would wrong though.

just petition the DMV for a fee waiver.

F/

 

[LaSainte]

You might be able to re-register it without the penalty if you opt for a salvage title. You’ll have to look into how this works in your state.

Unfortunately, a salvage title taints the vehicle’s history, even if it was never seriously damaged. However, if neither you nor the next owner cares that it would never be a top-dollar collector’s car, it can be an acceptable alternative.

Thanks for the advice. This would be a last resort. This car is a classic, with so much potential. I would hate to taint it for life. I just want to sell it at a reasonable price to someone who can afford to put the time and money into it that it deserves. I hate to sell it, but I must. 1965 Mustang with red Pony interior. 389 horsepower. Love this car

 

[Fairwinds]

Thanks for the advice. This would be a last resort. This car is a classic, with so much potential. I would hate to taint it for life. I just want to sell it at a reasonable price to someone who can afford to put the time and money into it that it deserves. I hate to sell it, but I must. 1965 Mustang with red Pony interior. 389 horsepower. Love this car

what do you want for it?

 

[LaSainte]

I know its not stealing. The eight commandments forbids false witness, i.e., lying.

False witness AGAINST my neighbor. It is a simple signature that the owner, if it were possible for me to contact him, would gladly give. I don’t see how this breaks a commandment.

 

[LaSainte]

If you decide not to forge the document, maybe you could donate the car to charity. You wouldn’t make money on it, but you wouldn’t lose any by having to pay fines.

In my state, you can’t donate a car without having the darned title. Silly law I’m my opinion. I can’t even take it to a salvage yard. Beocracy at its finest.

 

[LaSainte]

what do you want for it?

Haha! I would take 7000. It’s an amazing car. I paid 12.5k and put 3000 into it so far. It just needs a new wiring harness (500 bucks).

 

[Fairwinds]

Haha! I would take 7000. It’s an amazing car. I paid 12.5k and put 3000 into it so far. It just needs a new wiring harness (500 bucks).

seriously though, ask the DMV to wave the fees.

I worked on cars like that growing up. my first was a '68 Camaro RS and my second a '65 Mustang.

I think yours would be cool to run on the dirt track here at the speedway on saturday nights.

 

[LaSainte]

I do not think she is guilty. Who has she harmed? Did she acquire the car illegally? What moral law has she broken? I think ignorance of the law does indeed carry some weight, especially when it’s not a moral transgression.

It occurs to me that this is really about money. If the fine were ten dollars she would have no problem paying it. It seems to me that having to pay thousands of dollars for one small (IMO) mistake seems excessive. Doesn’t it seem excessive to you? You may say that that is not the issue, but it’s seems like it’s not right.

Now, granted I do not have the most attuned moral compass (though believe me, I do try). I’m not saying that forging the signature is right (though if you can consider it a moral sin, I don’t see how), and no, two wrongs do not make a right, but they will keep you from being the victim of extortion

Yes! It’s extortion because I cannot legally sell it without the title in my name. I have the signed title. The main problem is that I bought it on EBay and had it delivered to me. The person I bought it from “skipped” the title. He apparently bought it from the guy whose name is on the title and turned around and sold it to me. I am just trying to rectify what HE did wrong.

 

[yellowbird]

I would sign and date it today. Pay the appropriate taxes for the sales price and not worry about it. The fine is ridiculous - especially since the car didn’t even run.

 

[LaSainte]

Why not try contacting the person you purchased it from and say, “remember that car I bought from you? You actually didn’t sign the title. Could you sign it? Oh thanks, great”

Forging his name is lying.

I would, but he sold it to me illegally because he himself sold it to me without transferring the title into his own name. Otherwise it would be fairly simple.

 

[LaSainte]

I totally agree with you. Don’t agree that it is a mortal sin. YOU own the car. The only reason they have the law is to extort money FROM YOU. They absolutely don’t have a right to your money, just because they say you do.

Yes!!!

 

[LaSainte]

One that requires you to act immorally.

You should have thought of the consequences before not keeping the records expected of you.

Properly enacted taxes and fees are not stealing.

Wouldn’t that be an “immoral law” and not an “unjust” one? An unjust law is simply a law that does not serve justice, which this one does not in this situation. This law is unfair here because it fines me a massive amount of money for not knowing about a technicality. Is that just? I think not.

 

[LilyM]

I would, but he sold it to me illegally because he himself sold it to me without transferring the title into his own name. Otherwise it would be fairly simple.

Sounds like a classic scam. This is why you do NOT buy valuable items on eBay. And this is why you always check that the required paperwork is in order before agreeing to any sale. All stuff we have all been warned about many times.

Sounds like you made a mistake, and want to scam others in turn and get Joe Public to pay for your errors.

 

[yellowbird]

Sounds like you made a mistake, and want to scam others in turn and get Joe Public to pay for your errors.

How are we being asked to pay anything? She is paying the original tax. Who is being scammed? Not me. Not you. Who?

 

[constantconvert]

Other tax payers in her area.

Seriously? How in the world is she harming other tax payers? By not allowing them to benefit from the revenue that the city/state won’t receive? I’d hardly call that harm.

I didn’t say is was mortal sin. I said it was grave matter, one of three components of mortal sin.

Well, she has full knowledge, now. And no one is compelling her to do it-- though she’s obviously struggling with the decision. In any case, I don’t see that it’s a grave matter.

 

[LilyM]

Seriously? How in the world is she harming other tax payers? By not allowing them to benefit from the revenue that the city/state won’t receive? I’d hardly call that harm.

Well, she has full knowledge, now. And no one is compelling her to do it-- though she’s obviously struggling with the decision. In any case, I don’t see that it’s a grave matter.

Great - you heard it here first, tax cheating is not immoral! The governments provide no services and so deserve no money from you! Let’s disband the IRS! How long would your city or state or country function - continue to maintain roads, collect garbage, run your public schools and hospitals and provide all those other essential services you need - if everyone thought like you. All you need do is look at Greece - the economy is a basket case because its citizens are notorious tax dodgers.

Who cares that your duty as a citizen is to pay all lawful taxes and fines? And that there are ample ways of challenging or trying to change the law if you think the fine is extortionate rather than avoiding it by forgery.

 

[constantconvert]

Great - you heard it here first, tax cheating is not immoral! The governments provide no services and so deserve no money from you! Let’s disband the IRS!

Don’t hyperbolize. It adds nothing to the discussion. And if you think Greece is in trouble because they don’t pay taxes, you might want to read up more about the situation.

Who cares that your duty as a citizen is to pay all lawful taxes and fines? And that there are ample ways of challenging or trying to change the law if you think the fine is extortionate rather than avoiding it by forgery.

I don’t think it’s my lawful duty to pay fines, which is what this is, not a tax. Yes, I agree other avenues of rectification would be better, if they will work. But I certainly would sign the document before I gave up $$$. So I guess we will have to agree to disagree.