Can Jesus believers do any type of excersices like Tai Chi Chinese exercise

[thistle]

All forms of divination are to be rejected.

Tai Chi involves the Tao, the supreme creator. ‘Clearing the mind’ and ‘openness’ is extremely dangerous. Abandonment of those faculties that are given to us by Our Lord to direct and protect our lives: our reason, our emotions and free will.

Each of these practices discussed in this thread has a strong “theological” basis. It does not stop with the ‘simple physical exercises’ – their advocates know the deeper spiritual meaning of what they are doing, these experiences can be seductive.

Letting our defenses down inevitably lead to exposure to demonic powers. Not good for the soul.

That is wrong. The Church allows any of us to practice martial arts whether it is Tai Chi for exercise or Kung Fu, Karate etc for self defence.
I know many Catholics who have practiced these for years and all of them are still strong in their faith.

 

[Porknpie]

All forms of divination are to be rejected.

Tai Chi involves the Tao, the supreme creator. ‘Clearing the mind’ and ‘openness’ is extremely dangerous. Abandonment of those faculties that are given to us by Our Lord to direct and protect our lives: our reason, our emotions and free will.

Each of these practices discussed in this thread has a strong “theological” basis. It does not stop with the ‘simple physical exercises’ – their advocates know the deeper spiritual meaning of what they are doing, these experiences can be seductive.

Letting our defenses down inevitably lead to exposure to demonic powers. Not good for the soul.

Why would anyone want to engage in a practice, even if physically uplifting, that has such serious theological problems?

Better to go for a walk.

 

[thistle]

Why would anyone want to engage in a practice, even if physically uplifting, that has such serious theological problems?

Better to go for a walk.

There are no theological problems with Tai Chi. It can be practiced 100% for exercise only.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

All forms of divination are to be rejected.

Tai Chi involves the Tao, the supreme creator. ‘Clearing the mind’ and ‘openness’ is extremely dangerous. Abandonment of those faculties that are given to us by Our Lord to direct and protect our lives: our reason, our emotions and free will.

Each of these practices discussed in this thread has a strong “theological” basis. It does not stop with the ‘simple physical exercises’ – their advocates know the deeper spiritual meaning of what they are doing, these experiences can be seductive.

Letting our defenses down inevitably lead to exposure to demonic powers. Not good for the soul.

Tao, means “the way.” It’s what Lao Tzu discovered long before Jesus Christ came to earth.

However, there are many things Lao Tzu taught, which are the same as what Jesus taught, and this is because those who seek the truth, God will lead them to it.

A good book on the subject is, “Christ The Eternal Tao,” by Hieromonk Damascene, Lou Shibai, You-Shan Tang. Good read for those who are spiritually ready for it.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Anyway, as usual, the topic becomes a debate between Catholic fundamentalists and others with experience in the subject.

Time to unsubscribe.

Jim

 

[SeekingHisMercy]

The bishop’s letter that BluesPicker posted is spot on. Thank you for posting it.

And to the one with “experience in the subject”, JimR, here’s a little morsel for you to chew on: 道可道﹐非常道；名可名，非常名. But then, who am I…just a Catholic fundamentalist.

Praise God.

 

[Porknpie]

There are no theological problems with Tai Chi. It can be practiced 100% for exercise only.

There are theological problems which is why you are saying it can be practiced for exercise only.

Is that not correct?

 

[Michael_Mayo]

I wonder if the early Christians had such a problem accepting the Greek pagan Logos philosophy into its world view.

 

[SeekingHisMercy]

I think the Early Church had a much easier time in accepting dialogue with Greek philosophers rather than pagans. Pope Benedict XVI’s Wednesday audience which focused on St. Justin Martyr had this to say:

“Overall, the figure and work of Justin mark the ancient Church’s forceful option for philosophy, for reason, rather than for the religion of the pagans. With the pagan religion, in fact, the early Christians strenuously rejected every compromise. They held it to be idolatry, at the cost of being accused for this reason of “impiety” and “atheism”.”

 

[agnes_therese]

Why would anyone want to engage in a practice, even if physically uplifting, that has such serious theological problems?

Because if you’re just doing the physical exercises, it has nothing to do with theology.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

I think the Early Church had a much easier time in accepting dialogue with Greek philosophers rather than pagans. Pope Benedict XVI’s Wednesday audience which focused on St. Justin Martyr had this to say:

“Overall, the figure and work of Justin mark the ancient Church’s forceful option for philosophy, for reason, rather than for the religion of the pagans. With the pagan religion, in fact, the early Christians strenuously rejected every compromise. They held it to be idolatry, at the cost of being accused for this reason of “impiety” and “atheism”.”

I wonder though if such a sharp demarcation can be made between philsoophy and religion when metaphysics (a philosophy) is often used to atriculate religion. The Greekc philosophers identified “logos” with the divine animating principle pervading the Universe (kind of sounds like Tao or Chi) and yet John saw fit to use it in the Gospel.

theimaginativeconservative.org/2012/10/stoicism-and-logos.html

 

[SeekingHisMercy]

@Michael Mayo: Sure and if you look at the history of early Christianity in China, you can certainly see that they didn’t just walk in with an apologetics leaflet and say, “take it or leave it”. I think your point is a good point, but I don’t see this as the case with modern day dialogue between Christians and non-Christians because most cultures, Chinese culture included, have the Gospel translated and available in their own languages.

From the beginning level of practicing taijiquan, a player works at qi cultivation. The basic exercises, particularly Zhan Zhuang (the “standing pole” exercise, which is really a system in and of itself) is meant to open the practitioner’s body up to proper qi flow. The practitioner eventually gets into “moving the qi” on his/her own. If we are equating qi with the Holy Spirit, then there are some issues that, as far as I can see, cannot be reconciled:

1. Taiji (and qigong, for that matter) practitioners are taught to manipulate qi and move it to different areas of their bodies and use it execute techniques. We don’t manipulate the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit guides us toward holiness.
2. Chen Xiaowang (one of the most prominent modern-day taiji leaders) published a book, “The Five Stages of Taijiquan”. It’s a great book, very clearly written, which describes the fifth level as a spiritual level. This “spiritual level” is nothing close to what the Gospel preaches and in reality, is a very normal path for someone adhering to tenets recognizable in Eastern religion. Mantak Chia also discusses this in his books on taijiquan and general qi cultivation. Very clearly, the Gospel is distinct and set apart from other religions and calls for us to radical in our choice for Jesus.
3. I think one of the big issues and certainly one that needs to be addressed is that we have a lot of Catholics who pursue taijiquan, Eastern meditation, qigong, and other similar activities, who are looking for mystical experience, as well as health benefits. The above choices shortcut authentic mystical experience and the result is a cheapened, short-lived feeling that does not move the practitioner toward a closer relationship with Jesus Christ. The question for the Church is, how do we steer people away from these things, because they are examples of false spirituality, and help people to move toward authentic mystical experience and contemplation? Not easily solved, mind you, but a question that needs to be addressed.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

@Michael Mayo: Sure and if you look at the history of early Christianity in China, you can certainly see that they didn’t just walk in with an apologetics leaflet and say, “take it or leave it”. I think your point is a good point, but I don’t see this as the case with modern day dialogue between Christians and non-Christians because most cultures, Chinese culture included, have the Gospel translated and available in their own languages.

From the beginning level of practicing taijiquan, a player works at qi cultivation. The basic exercises, particularly Zhan Zhuang (the “standing pole” exercise, which is really a system in and of itself) is meant to open the practitioner’s body up to proper qi flow. The practitioner eventually gets into “moving the qi” on his/her own.

1. Taiji (and qigong, for that matter) practitioners are taught to manipulate qi and move it to different areas of their bodies and use it execute techniques. We don’t manipulate the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit guides us toward holiness.
2. Chen Xiaowang (one of the most prominent modern-day taiji leaders) published a book, “The Five Stages of Taijiquan”. It’s a great book, very clearly written, which describes the fifth level as a spiritual level. This “spiritual level” is nothing close to what the Gospel preaches and in reality, is a very normal path for someone adhering to tenets recognizable in Eastern religion. Mantak Chia also discusses this in his books on taijiquan and general qi cultivation. Very clearly, the Gospel is distinct and set apart from other religions and calls for us to radical in our choice for Jesus.
3. I think one of the big issues and certainly one that needs to be addressed is that we have a lot of Catholics who pursue taijiquan, Eastern meditation, qigong, and other similar activities, who are looking for mystical experience, as well as health benefits. The above choices shortcut authentic mystical experience and the result is a cheapened, short-lived feeling that does not move the practitioner toward a closer relationship with Jesus Christ. The question for the Church is, how do we steer people away from these things, because they are examples of false spirituality, and help people to move toward authentic mystical experience and contemplation? Not easily solved, mind you, but a question that needs to be addressed.

And I think you are making a good start.
You said, " If we are equating qi with the Holy Spirit, then there are some issues that, as far as I can see, cannot be reconciled." For sure! But how about some other natural life giving thing such as oxygen or whatever it is in it that we need and however it may work in our bodies.

It is easy to see how one can get sidetracked and make the manipulation of some physical aspects of our nature somewhat of a god. That can be done with anyhting. I sometimes wonder if people training for the olympics don’t go overboard, or even professional musicians who have practiced for hours on end to the exclusion of other aspects of their lives including religion.

Seeking health benefits is one thing and seeking mystical experience quite another. And yet they can be mistaken when a health benefit might help us to feel very good, maybe even euphoric (like a runners high). It brings us to that relationship between body, mind & spirit. They seem to interpenetrate yet remain distinct. One can indeed be greatless misled in interpreting a physical euphoria for a mystical experience aand then continue to seek it. It then becomes a matter of perfecting a technique rather than a relationship with the Lord. But I think that can be applied to many things.

 

[BluesPicker]

Because if you’re just doing the physical exercises, it has nothing to do with theology.

 After several years of  being sick, my father died at the age of 41 in 1969.  I was in the 9th grade.  So I began swimming, weights, and running.   Upon enterring college after 2 semesters  I moved from home to a off campus private dorm.  I met several orientals there.  They were all my friends.   One of them used to run with me.  He was a refugee from Manchuria whose family came to Hong Kong.  In China, martial arts are an integral part of many family's tradition.  He began training at the age of 4 under a blackbelt who was a student of Gogen Yamaguchi. He taught a small class of karate.

youtube.com/watch?v=V5jAWbuBdhg

   Boxing is an art. Karate is very different than boxing and it was an extreme workout. In Karate we spared with no contact for the first year and only very rarely full contact. There is a lot of displine in Karate.  The Karate style I studied is called "Gojo Kai" which is derived from Gojo Ryu by Gogen Yamaguchi.   Gojo Ryu is one of the main traditional Okinawan styles of karate.  This is a rigorous art  that looks simple but every detail even how to tie your belt is regulated.  The workouts were 3 hours long on alternate nights.  I would run 5 miles daily, and on nights opposite Karate I would swim.

I also integrated yoga stretches in my daily workouts. One of the most hardest exercise was done in a manner similar what we called a backwards pushup. You sit on the floor and then lift yourself off the floor balancing on the first two knuckles of each hand and your heels of your feet. I could do this 10 minutes after years. Try it, just try it I doubt you can hold yourself one minute.

  This exercise I described is to strengthen your hand, wrist, and arm to be able to punch a wooden pole.

   My instructor was one of the most outstanding people I have ever met. Honest, humble, and a hard worker and a loyal friend.  At some point he talked about Soft Style martial arts. He claimed that this was very dangerous because this involves "demonic forces" and stated that this is not suitable for Americans.  At the time, sorry to say,  I was not going to Church but  I did pray.   I really didn't understand what he meant by "demonic."   I chalked it up to some peculiar aspect of this stuff and the language barrier.  Also the mindset of associated with the martial arts tradition is hard to understand. 

   If you watched the above video you will see that Gogen Yamaguchi was deep into the occult.  

   Bohidarma, a monk and martial arts master, brought Buddhism and Kung Fu to China at the famous Shaolin Temple.  Kung Fu spread from there to Japan, Korea and surrounding nations along with Buddhism.  Mr. Yamaguchi was a Shinto priest.

   Yes of course physical exercise is good.  Being able to defend yourself is good.  But martial art's roots are in a pagan belief system. 

    Mons. Porteous is a Bishop devoted to the ministry of exorcism.  Every Catholic priest in this ministry who are exorcists harp on the meditations where one empties their mind.  This is the first exercise in Gojo Chi or Gojo Ryu.  The other main point that is not good is the manipulation of "chi."

   For the life of me,  I don't understand why this mental exorcise of meditation whose aim is to keep one calm and collected in times of stress.  For some in the past, these unChristian meditations have caused big spiritual troubles that required the intevention of the Church in the capacity of rites of deliverance and exorcism.

   No one person knows why some people become victims of demonic oppression and possession.   I even argued with my spiritual direction saying that  "I am not like a chicken-brain, my focus is to silence my thoughts etc.etc."  Believe me he was not impressed with my nay saying ramblings.  Since he was my spiritual director, and a very good priest  I listened to him and obeyed.  

  I deeply respect Thistle and Agnes but  I believe and know that some people have been harmed spiritually practicing yoga,  reiki, Tai Chi & other martial art forms. 

  This is very true that physical exercise has nothing to do with anything evil.

The extraordinary attacks of Satan and his apostate hosts are not mental illness & nor are they the sole cause of spiritual woes. Psychiatrists have helped many people some who were and some who were not victims of evil spirits.

God protects His people.  We will all find out at the General Judgement just how very much Christ has intervened in all of our lives.

  I urge people to at least read what  Catholic clergymen warn about this. I also don't believe or suggest that anyone here has spiritual troubles.  

   If not for a few priest's like the late Padre Candido Armantini and others throughout the world we would have lost much of the oral tradition of  liberation of evil spirits. 

   Read what the experts have to say.  I like Fr. Z's blog.  He is profoundly interested in leading people to Christ and he is a very honest priest.

wdtprs.com/blog/2011/10/why-are-we-letting-heretics-teach-this-****-in-our-churches/

  " I don’t think there is any harm to learning how to stretch and strengthen through moves or stances of yoga or tai-chi so long as nothing of the religion/world view is given any “energy”.  (Sorry… I had to.)   The enneagram and labyrinth and reiki stuff is just silly, though that reiki thing is on the edge from what I know about it (which admittedly isn’t much). Channeling?  If you go anywhere near that you are out of your ever-living mind."

So Fr. Z sums it up very well.

Peace,
BP

 

[SeekingHisMercy]

And I think you are making a good start.
You said, " If we are equating qi with the Holy Spirit, then there are some issues that, as far as I can see, cannot be reconciled." For sure! But how about some other natural life giving thing such as oxygen or whatever it is in it that we need and however it may work in our bodies.

It is easy to see how one can get sidetracked and make the manipulation of some physical aspects of our nature somewhat of a god. That can be done with anyhting. I sometimes wonder if people training for the olympics don’t go overboard, or even professional musicians who have practiced for hours on end to the exclusion of other aspects of their lives including religion.

Seeking health benefits is one thing and seeking mystical experience quite another. And yet they can be mistaken when a health benefit might help us to feel very good, maybe even euphoric (like a runners high). It brings us to that relationship between body, mind & spirit. They seem to interpenetrate yet remain distinct. One can indeed be greatless misled in interpreting a physical euphoria for a mystical experience aand then continue to seek it. It then becomes a matter of perfecting a technique rather than a relationship with the Lord. But I think that can be applied to many things.

I’m in agreement with you that people can be misled in interpreting physical euphoria for a mystical experience, which is why we rely on the Church’s teaching and the writings of the saints in navigating what can be very tricky water when it comes to prayer and mystical experience. In the past threads on this topic, which we’ve both been participants in, the pastoral letter “Jesus Christ: The Bearer of the Water of Life” invariably comes up. The fact that a somewhat lengthy letter like this is produced is evidence that confusion exists and that guidance is needed from the Church regarding the problems of its members, intentionally or under the guise of something seemingly innocuous, becoming involved in New Age practices.

The point with taijiquan is that several of its basic premises involve cultivation and manipulation of qi and that it finds it roots in Daoism. It is foundational to the practice and cannot be separated from it. The discussion by some in the thread about just doing the movement, but not being involved in the spiritual aspect is one with which I continue to disagree because of my experience with this as a teacher and practitioner. It opens a door to potential demonic influence. I would also continue to affirm Fr. John Hardon’s thoughts on yoga as applicable to taijiquan for the same reasons. There are plenty of other ways to exercise that do not present inherent spiritual conflicts the way that taijiquan does.

In many ways, I think 1 Maccabees 1 is somewhat appropriate in its discussion of the construction of a gymnasium and that the Israelites abandoned the holy covenant. Plenty of activities and things in the world exist which distract Catholics from the straight and narrow. We are called to be discerning in determining whether or not something we are considering participating in is appropriate. We may draw the ire of people who would complain that we are throwing the baby out with the bathwater or that we are not being “open-minded” enough. Life isn’t about gaining everyone else’s approval. Things exist which are inherently harmful to our faith and we’re called to steer clear of them. My experience with taijiquan is that it has problems at its core which preclude it from being compatible with the Catholic Faith.

I’m aware that we differ on this, but I do take your points seriously and appreciate your willingness to dialogue. Hoping we can keep each other in prayer.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

I’m aware that we differ on this, but I do take your points seriously and appreciate your willingness to dialogue. Hoping we can keep each other in prayer.

I am not so sure we differ. The more I learn the more I realize how ignorant I am. And that is especially true when it comes to that psycho/spiritual overlap. And I must also admit that I am too lazy to maintain any practice of Tai Chi or yoga. So I quess my interest is curiosity. My main exercise is walking the dog at least three times each day.

Now, at this point, just what do you (or whoever wants to answer) think Chi or Qi is?

Does it actually exist?

If so, is it natural and something we can actually influence or “supernatural” and beyond our control?

I especailly appreciate hearing from those of you who have studied and practiced.

 

[SeekingHisMercy]

My conclusion at this point is that is doesn’t exist and that spiritual insights gained through it could be of a dubious nature. Again, I arrived at this through much prayer, much consultation with clergy, martial artists (both Christian and non-Christian), and faithful laypersons, and much reading and research. The bishop’s article posted in this thread is continued confirmation that I made the right decision.

I think one of the questions that I’ve asked myself is, what harm does it do? My take is that at the very least, it distracts people with a lot of metaphysical nonsense that isn’t from God, is a waste of time, and ends up keeping people away from seeking God through authentic ways. It puts ideas, such as chakras and Eastern meditation, into the forefront as components of a well-balanced spiritual life. If those things were necessary in our spiritual life, they would be part of the deposit of Faith. The fact that a pastoral letter was written which decries a whole genre of this type of thing and that several well-known Catholic clergy (I’ll again cite Fr. Hardon) have spoken out against these as false spirituality leads me to conclude that they are apt to lead people away from the authentic Gospel of Jesus Christ rather than toward it.

It took a long time–years–for me to come to this conclusion and it was not easy to walk away. Yet, when I did, I knew I had done the right thing. Maybe the reason God let me get so involved was so that one day I’d be able to talk about it in this way, I don’t really know.

 

[cjforJesus]

My conclusion at this point is that is doesn’t exist and that spiritual insights gained through it could be of a dubious nature. Again, I arrived at this through much prayer, much consultation with clergy, martial artists (both Christian and non-Christian), and faithful laypersons, and much reading and research. The bishop’s article posted in this thread is continued confirmation that I made the right decision.

I think one of the questions that I’ve asked myself is, what harm does it do? My take is that at the very least, it distracts people with a lot of metaphysical nonsense that isn’t from God, is a waste of time, and ends up keeping people away from seeking God through authentic ways. It puts ideas, such as chakras and Eastern meditation, into the forefront as components of a well-balanced spiritual life. If those things were necessary in our spiritual life, they would be part of the deposit of Faith. The fact that a pastoral letter was written which decries a whole genre of this type of thing and that several well-known Catholic clergy (I’ll again cite Fr. Hardon) have spoken out against these as false spirituality leads me to conclude that they are apt to lead people away from the authentic Gospel of Jesus Christ rather than toward it.

It took a long time–years–for me to come to this conclusion and it was not easy to walk away. Yet, when I did, I knew I had done the right thing. Maybe the reason God let me get so involved was so that one day I’d be able to talk about it in this way, I don’t really know.

I think you made a very wise decision . Trying to manipulate an “energy force” through exercises has never once been mentioned by any saint or blessed. Chakras do not exist,they are only created in your mind through faith in them.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

My conclusion at this point is that is doesn’t exist and that spiritual insights gained through it could be of a dubious nature.

What kept you believing all the years that you practiced?

 

[SeekingHisMercy]

That’s a great question. In earlier threads, I shared that I left the Church during the time I practiced taiji. I want to emphasize that it had to do with a lot of things, unrelated to taiji, but practice itself was a good distraction from facing the reality that I had left the Church. I also want to apologize for leaving–it was a bad decision on my part and I regret it to this day. Things would have been much different had I not left and I would have not wasted so much time had I stayed and worked things out.

While living in China, I became aware of an American missionary priest who lived in my city and celebrated Mass for expats at a local church. I made my way to Confession and Mass and began to make a very long journey back to living out my faith. I should say that my practice began to drop off more as I made my way back and, on returning to the U.S. to live, the issue of whether or not to continue practicing came up almost immediately.

I had been listening to a Catholic radio program one day while driving and the topics of yoga, Eastern spirituality, etc. came up. I knew that this was something that I needed to consider–whether or not I could continue practicing taiji and be faithful. As much as I tried to find ways to reconcile it with the Faith, I couldn’t. Each time I would try to move forward with it, the whole notion of it being rooted in Eastern religion and spirituality hit me like a freight train–real conviction. As I began to read, seek counsel, and pray, I became more and more convinced that I needed to leave it behind.

I should say that I had a lot of friends–a whole community of people–that I left, along with the prospects of moving forward with being successful as a teacher. These people are still my friends, but most of them are aware of my reasons for not continuing training. They are respectful of my decision and we remains friends to this day.

Also in this period of time, I went through two serious medical issues-a heart attack and a kidney stroke, both within three years of each other. Both were genetic and both changed the whole ballgame for me and gave me significant time to reflect on where my life was headed. I knew that despite my reversion to the Faith, I still had much baggage to get rid of that I’d picked up along the way. Taiji was among the things I got rid of.

So, not a perfect story by any means, but rather an earnest attempt on my part to use the knowledge and experiences I’ve had to do the right thing. That’s where things are at. I honestly don’t have all the answers, but this is the conclusion that has resounded over and over again. Thanks for letting me share.