Can Lucifer Be Saved?

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Carl, be careful that you do not let certain questions you have take you down the “neverending path.” Keep in mind, there are some questions that we may never fully understand here in this life.

The bottom line with Lucifer is that he was with God, he did not have to operate on faith as we do. When he made his prideful choice to attempt to rise to the level of God, he did it with full knowledge. We on the other hand, are operating with faith. The Lord is testing us now so that we may overcome these tempations now, with His Grace, so that we may enter Heaven pure. Remember, nothing will enter Heaven impure. Suffice it to say, God has arranged it so that sin will not enter Heaven again! This is why God, in his mercy, has created purgatory for those of us that have been saved but need further purging of any imperfection that would keep us from entering the Kingdom.
 
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Carl:
If there was no devil before Lucifer, who tempted Lucifer?
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His mirror? 🙂
 
Here’s something thats always bothered me… I have one of the earlier copies of Sister Faustinas book of visions… I dont know if the NEWER reprintings contain this vision, but its in the one I have… could this be a very bad translation to english or can someone else who has studied mystical theology answer this for me?

Sister Faustina has a vision of the devil, Jesus, a condemned soul… now to make it short…the subject was Jesus explaining how GREAT his mercy was and how far it extends… Jesus says to the devil…“Lucifer, have you ever thought about asking me for forgivness”?.. to this he responds…'No NEVER! That I WILL NOT DO"!!!.. then Jesus turns to Sister Faustina and says…“see my child… if even Lucifer would ask for forgivness, HELL ITSELF WOULD CEASE TO EXIST”. HUH??? :eek:

Now, I gotta tell ya,… this makes NO SENSE to me… I accept that the church has authorized Sister Faustinas revelations… etc… Divine Mercy, etc… but HOW is that sequence explained? Could Jesus have been guilty of using a BAD ANALOGY? It CANT be that… so HOW is this explained? Any help would be appreciated.

If hell itself ceased to exist… then where would the condemned go? Do THEY get another shot? Of course not… so how is what the Lord explained justified? That would like null and void everything in apocolypse! Why would Jesus make an offer to the devil like that? Did the lord do it just to annoy Satan? Could the lord be a prankster and jerk the devils chain just to make him angrier? Hey, that actually sounds funny… but I dont think Jesus is spending time jerking satans chain so to speak. THIS has been my biggest head scratcher of ALL mystical revelations I have read over the last 10 years!
 
Faithful 2 Rome:
Here’s something thats always bothered me… I have one of the earlier copies of Sister Faustinas book of visions… I dont know if the NEWER reprintings contain this vision, but its in the one I have… could this be a very bad translation to english or can some else who has studied mystical theolgy answer this for me?

Sister Faustina has a vision of the devil, Jesus, a condemned soul… now to make it short…the subject was Jesus explaining how GREAT his mercy was and how far it extends… Jesus says to the devil…“Lucifer, have you ever thought about asking for forgivness”?.. to this he responds…'No NEVER! That I WILL NOT DO"!!!.. then Jesus turns to Sister Faustina and says…“see my child… if even Lucifer would ask for forgivness, HELL ITSELF WOULD CEASE TO EXIST”. HUH??? :eek:

Now, I gotta tell ya,… this makes NO SENSE to me… I accept that the church has authorized Sister Faustinas revelations… etc… Divine Mercy, etc… but HOW is that sequence explained? Could Jesus have been guilty of using a BAD ANALOGY? It CANT be that… so HOW is this explained? Any help would be appreciated.

If hell itself ceased to exist… then where do the condemned go? Do THEY get another shot? Of course not… so how is what the Lord explained justified? That would like null and void everything in apocolypse! Why would Jesus make an offer to the devil like that? Did the lord do it just to annoy Satan? THIS has been my biggest head scratcher of ALL mystical revelations I have read over the last 10 years!
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As far as I can understand, being in the Byzantine Catholic Church, my pastor says that the Byz perspective is one that, Yes, Lucifer can be saved only when he submits to Jesus and says that he was wrong to try to ‘overthrow’ God the Father. I do not know all the details about this thinking but with God anything is possible, so could God even in His ultimate Will have Satan confess?

Just a thought!

Go with God!
Edwin
 
“Carl, be careful that you do not let certain questions you have take you down the “neverending path.” Keep in mind, there are some questions that we may never fully understand here in this life.”

Be so kind as to read post #17 again.

Carl
 
I didn’t read every single post, but it looks like the majority of answers to the question, “Can Satan be saved” is no. And rightly so.

The devil is an actual spiritual being–a fallen angel (or demon). Both the Bible and Tradition of the Church teach that the devil (also called Satan–meaning “adversary,” or Lucifer–“light bearer”) was the most glorious of the angels, but pride and envy caused him and his followers to rebel against God. As a result of this rebellion, Satan and the other fallen angels (or demons) were cast from God’s presence, a separation that will exist for all eternity.

(read Matthew 25:41 and 1 John 3:8).
 
One answer given was that Lucifer never had the Beautific Vision before his fall. What would be the scriptural passage to support this?
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Scripture is clear that there can be no sin in heaven. Lucifer sinned. Therefore he was never, strictly speaking, in “Heaven,” i.e. with the Beatific vision. This is not an opinion, but a theological certainty, a necessary deduction from the Scriptural data.

If you want a more exhaustive proof, see what Saint Thomas Aquinas wrote about the subject in his Summa. Here’s a concise summary, given by the Angelic Doctor:
To be established or confirmed in good is of the nature of beatitude. But the angels were not confirmed in good as soon as they were created; the fall of some of them shows this. Therefore the angels were not in beatitude from their creation.
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As to Lucifer’s possible salvation:
I didn’t read every single post, but it looks like the majority of answers to the question, “Can Satan be saved” is no.
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Its not true because “the majority” say it is. Its true because the Church ays it is. See the post from the Catechism above.
 
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Carl:
I am posing this question on behalf of someone who does not have access to the Internet.
Why do we never see any reference in Scripture to the possibility that Lucifer, like humans, might be offered Redemption? Is there any indication in Scripture that this is impossible, or highly improbable?
Should we pray for Satan? Would that be a truly senseless and laughable effort from Satan’s point of view?
How might God view such prayers?
Any takers?
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Historical note: One of the early Fathers, Origen, wrote that all creatures, including Satan, would eventually be reconciled with God, after aeons of time. This particular view was condemned by one of the early Councils. Joe
 
Historical note: One of the early Fathers, Origen, wrote that all creatures, including Satan, would eventually be reconciled with God, after aeons of time. This particular view was condemned by one of the early Councils. Joe
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Yes; that would be the Second Ecumenical Council of Constantinople, held in 553. From “The Anathematisms of the Emperor Justinian against Origen”:
IX. If anyone says or thinks that the punishment of demons and of impious men is only temporary, and will one day have an end, and that a restoration (apokatastasis) will take place of demons and of impious men, let him be anathema.
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Anathema to Origen and to that Adamantius, who set forth these opinions together with his nefarious and execrable and wicked doctrine and to whomsoever there is who thinks thus, or defends these opinions, or in any way hereafter at any time shall presume to protect them.
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Could it be any clearer than that? :cool:
 
We can’t sin in Heaven because there we see God “face to face,” or to put it in philosophical terms, we have the beatific vision. Our minds won’t just know God by having an idea of him, but will be directly plugged in to him. The human will tends toward the good. In the presence of infinite good, it cannot sin.

In the Garden, Adam & Eve had knowledge of God, but not the beatific vision, so they were capable of being tempted by something that only seemed good.
 
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DominvsVobiscvm:
Yes; that would be the Second Ecumenical Council of Constantinople, held in 553. From “The Anathematisms of the Emperor Justinian against Origen”:

Could it be any clearer than that? :cool:
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The Catholic Encyclopedia at: NewAdvent

asks: “Were Origen and Origenism anathematized? Many learned writers believe so; an equal number deny that they were condemned; most modern authorities are either undecided or reply with reservations. Relying on the most recent studies on the question it may be held that: …”

7 questionable aspects of the anathemizing follow this point. You can access the link to read them.

Origen wrote about topics long before the Church had declared a position to be held. Hundreds of years later, after the Church had addressed those topics, a few of Origen’s teachings were then declared to be heretical.

He was definitely an interesting guy.

Peace in Christ…Salmon
 
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BobCatholic:
His mirror? 🙂
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This is the nth time I’ve seen you write this, and I couldn’t stand it any more: I had to chuckle 😃

It seems so funny to me. To bad it seems to be a fairly accurate summary. I almost feel guilty chuckling…
 
Faithful 2 Rome:
… a vision of the devil, Jesus, a condemned soul… now to make it short…the subject was Jesus explaining how GREAT his mercy was and how far it extends… Jesus says to the devil…“Lucifer, have you ever thought about asking me for forgivness”?.. to this he responds…'No NEVER! That I WILL NOT DO"!!!.. then Jesus turns to Sister Faustina and says…“see my child… if even Lucifer would ask for forgivness, HELL ITSELF WOULD CEASE TO EXIST”. HUH??? :eek:

Now, I gotta tell ya,… this makes NO SENSE to me… I accept that the church has authorized Sister Faustinas revelations… etc… Divine Mercy, etc… but HOW is that sequence explained? Could Jesus have been guilty of using a BAD ANALOGY? It CANT be that… so HOW is this explained? Any help would be appreciated…
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I guess I don’t necessarily have a problem with this. I haven’t read any of Sister Faustina’s writings, but on the surface it seems fairly self explanatory. If Lucifer, who has the greatest pride of any creature, angelic or human, could and would ask our Lord for forgiveness, then surely every creature could and would. If all creatures did, Hell would cease to exist, because there would be no one in it.

Remember, Hell is not necessarily a physical place to be in; it could almost be described as a condition the spirit is in since a spirit doesn’t occupy physical space.

From Theology for Beginners (F.J.Sheed) [Chap 10, pg 76]:
The angels who sinned were separated from God. They must have known that this would mean suffering. God had made them, as he has made us, for union with himself. Their nature, like ours , is a great mass of needs, needs which only God can meet. All spiritual beings need God, as (and immeasurably more than) the body need food and drink and air. Deprived of these the body knows torment, and at last dies. Deprived of God a spirit knows torment, and cannot die. It is deprived of God by its own will to reject God, but this will not change; its self-love is too monstrous. The lost will not have God, who alone can meet their needs, but who by the greatness of his glory shows their own self for the poor thing it is. Union with him would be self-love’s crucifixion, and self-love has become their all
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(Side note: From our perspective, I think Hell is NOT a physical place, and won’t be until after our Lord comes and everyone is resurrected. At that point, I could see a need for a “physical place”, since those condemned to Hell will have their bodies back. But from our point of view (temporal), Hell doesn’t even need to exist as a physical place right now. The dead who have chosen Hell are there spritually; their bodies are in the ground.)

Lucifer cannot ask for forgiveness because his will is fixed in his pride. God will not force him to change because love requires a free response; God will not force anyone to love Him. The only way Lucifer could ask for forgiveness would be if our Lord changed Lucifer’s will. But our Lord respects everyone’s free will to choose. And Lucifer will never change his decision; he doesn’t want to. In the vision, it seems that our Lord is making a point that God doesn’t will damnation on anyone; they chose it freely and once that choice is fixed, they will not change it.

The book I quoted is an excellent resource. It puts things in very simple terms and doesn’t go too deep or too quickly. Obviously a discussion on this topic can go VERY deep and long.

God bless,

Ken
 
Hi, this is my first post…

with regard to post #23, on Sister Faustina’s vision. I think that Jesus said that more to emphasize the permanence of Hell, because as we know, the angels were perfect spiritual beings and once they made the decision to turn against God, they could never go back and since they could never go back on that decision, it lends all the more weight that Hell is a place that is real and will exist for all time, out of time itself.

just my 2 cents worth…

ADRIAN
 
Carl said:
"…the sin of satan is pride, most os us here on earth do not need to be tempted to be overly proud…"

Apparently Adam and Eve did.
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I said most not all, adam and eve were tempted but they still had a choice as to whether to sin or not…
 
No, Lucifer cannot be saved and doesn’t want to you pray for him either. He isn’t going to pray for you.
 
Where do you even come up with this question? Arent we supposed to have the mind of Christ. Why are you letting satan infiltrate your mind? Dont let the spirit of doubt enter in. :confused:
 
Thanks for all your very interesting comments. I will pass them on to the asker.

Pax,
Carl
 
Tyler Smedley:
Angels have two choices, they can serve God or they are cast out. We when we get to heaven we are eternally united with God and will not want to rebel against God so no we once in heaven will not be able to choose against God, or while we are in purgatory for that matter.
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Theophilis,

Where is this in Scripture?:hmmm:

I must admit, I never have thought of turning my back on God after I am saved someday I ‘hope’.

A prisoner of Christ
 
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