Can Lucifer Be Saved?

[Pace]

BobCatholic:

His mirror?

Beautiful. And the serpent showed a mirror to Eve. Or taught her how to imagine a mirror?

 

[1962Missal]

Catechism of the Catholic Church

391 Behind the disobedient choice of our first parents lurks a seductive voice, opposed to God, which makes them fall into death out of envy.266 Scripture and the Church’s Tradition see in this being a fallen angel, called “Satan” or the “devil”.267 The Church teaches that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God: "The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing."268

392 Scripture speaks of a sin of these angels.269 This “fall” consists in the free choice of these created spirits, who radically and irrevocably rejected God and his reign. We find a reflection of that rebellion in the tempter’s words to our first parents: "You will be like God."270 The devil “has sinned from the beginning”; he is “a liar and the father of lies”.271

**393 It is the irrevocable character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels’ sin unforgivable. "There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death."272 **

Seems simple enough to me.

Justin

 

[Pace]

kenmraz:

Lucifer cannot ask for forgiveness because his will is fixed in his pride. God will not force him to change because love requires a free response; God will not force anyone to love Him. The only way Lucifer could ask for forgiveness would be if our Lord changed Lucifer’s will. But our Lord respects everyone’s free will to choose. And Lucifer will never change his decision; he doesn’t want to. In the vision, it seems that our Lord is making a point that God doesn’t will damnation on anyone; they chose it freely and once that choice is fixed, they will not change it.

The book I quoted is an excellent resource. It puts things in very simple terms and doesn’t go too deep or too quickly. Obviously a discussion on this topic can go VERY deep and long.

God bless,

Ken

Thank you, Ken. That seems like the answer we needed.

I sometimes wonder if we don’t need, at this time in the world, to seek to simplify our thoughts and language in some way. Even to the point where we don’t talk at all! It’s almost like the Beatific Vision is already here in a way. I wonder if we all didn’t (or don’t still) know the right answer before even the question was posed? I think we live it out each day ourselves, in the deepest part of our souls (which I believe may be exposed to their “deepest part” in our day, where the conditions required for mortal sin to occur are practically ‘set in place’ and no longer hidden).

What does everyone think about this?

 

[Malachi4U]

The Catholic Church teaches that God is a forgiving God.

Protestants are saved by faith alone.

Can lucifer be saved? Why not?

A prisoner of Christ,

 

[Beaver]

No!

 

[Maccabees]

Salmon:

The Catholic Encyclopedia at: NewAdvent

asks: “Were Origen and Origenism anathematized? Many learned writers believe so; an equal number deny that they were condemned; most modern authorities are either undecided or reply with reservations. Relying on the most recent studies on the question it may be held that: …”

7 questionable aspects of the anathemizing follow this point. You can access the link to read them.

Origen wrote about topics long before the Church had declared a position to be held. Hundreds of years later, after the Church had addressed those topics, a few of Origen’s teachings were then declared to be heretical.

He was definitely an interesting guy.

Peace in Christ…Salmon

Origen at times was simply brilliant he took a lot chances theologically and and more often than not was right. He interpretation of scripture is orthodox and simply outstanding until Augustine he was the giant thinker of the church. However when he got away from scipture interpretation and into theological supostions he got into trouble but considiering he was in teh the 200’s the barriers of orthdoxy were wide and not set as they were later to be. That being said he was Orthodox in his time and died in good standing with the church he was not a rebelious memeber of the church such as Tertullians, Arius or Luther. He simply overstepped Orthodoxy before Orthodoxy was defined.
I agree he was interesting even his errors were interesting.

 

[Maccabees]

Malachi4U:

The Catholic Church teaches that God is a forgiving God.

Protestants are saved by faith alone.

Can lucifer be saved? Why not?

A prisoner of Christ,

Good Point if someone is saved by faith alone that would be Satan no one has more faith in Christ and knows who Christ is more than Satan. As James says even the Demons believe. Intellectual assent to who Christ is is not enough.
Revelation makes it clear Satan is bound forever in his own personal hell. No get of jail card for him.

 

[RobedWithLight]

Once the rebellious angels made their choice in opposing God, their choice was made for all eternity. They knew perfectly well what they were rejecting, what they were opposing, and yet went forward with their revolt. Their hatred for God and all His creation burns eternally within them, as unquenchable as the fires of hell itself. Salvation for the devil himself under these circumstances is simply out of the question.

Besides, the book of Revelation makes it perfectly clear that the devil and his minions are already destined for the lake of fire (Revelation 20:10).

Gerry

 

[RobedWithLight]

Malachi4U:

The Catholic Church teaches that God is a forgiving God.

Protestants are saved by faith alone.

Can lucifer be saved? Why not?

A prisoner of Christ,

Even God’s mercy could not find any excuse for Lucifer’s sin. The devil knew perfectly well what he was doing, and what he was rejecting. With him there was no such thing as “temptation”, or ignorance, unlike Adam or Eve when they had sinned in paradise. The devil’s sin was thoroughly deliberate, and their wills are thus fixed permanently in their rebellion.

Gerry

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Carl:

Should we pray for Satan? Would that be a truly senseless and laughable effort from Satan’s point of view?

Who knows…

Here is a story for you from an old Patericon (a Patericon is a book of the collected sayings of the monks of old.)

Now, don’t swoop on me…!! I know the theological
pitfalls in this story – but I still like it so much!
It resonates in my old Irish heart.

…With the Sign of the Cross, the old monk Abba
Joseph trapped in his cell a dark and miserable demon
who had come to tempt him. “Release me, Father, and let
me go,” pleaded the demon, “I will not come to tempt you
again”. “I will gladly do that, but on one condition,”
replied the monk. “You must sing for me the song that
you sang before God’s Throne on high, before your fall.”

The demon responded, “You know I cannot do that; it will
cause me cruel torture and suffering. And besides, Father,
no human ear can hear its ineffable sweetness and live,
for you will surely die.” “Then you will have to remain
here in my cell,” said the monk, “and bear with me the
full struggle of repentance.” “Let me go, do not force me
to suffer,” pleaded the demon." “Ah, but then you must
sing to me the song you sang on high before your fall
with Satan.”

So the dark and miserable demon, seeing that there was
no way out, began to sing, haltingly, barely audible
at first, groping for words long forgotten. As he sang,
the darkness which penetrated and surrounded him began
slowly to dissipate. The song grew ever louder and
increasingly stronger, and soon the demon was caught
up in its sweetness, his voice fully lifted up in worship
and praise. Boldly he sang of the power and the honour
and the glory of the Triune God on High, Creator of the
Universe, Master of Heaven and Earth, of all things visible
and invisible. As the song sung on high before all ages
resounded in the fullness of its might, a wondrous and
glorious light penetrated the venerable Abba’s humble cell,
and the walls which had enclosed it were no more. Ineffable
love and joy surged into the very depths of the being
of the radiant and glorious angel, as he ever so gently
stooped down and covered with his wings the lifeless body
of the old hermit who had liberated him from the abyss of hell.
-oOo-

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Now we all know that it is the common opinion of theologians that the fallen angels have had their eternal fate decided, and have irrevocably chosen for God or against God.

So the theologians certainly have their common opinion but the Saints, always much better theologians, may be at odds with them.

For example, Saint Isaac the Syrian (7th century)wrote:
**
“What is a merciful heart? It is a heart that burns with love for the whole creation — for men, for birds, for beasts, for demons and for every creature.” **

Saint Isaac is not only wonderful and holy. He is also disturbing. I have no answers to this puzzle, but I do cherish the suspicion that our Lord expects us to mull it over a bit. Perhaps He has left us this Saint as a kind of gentle question mark placed over some of our certainties. Not over the essential ones, for Isaac himself is proof of those, but perhaps over others that we - not God - have declared certain.

See the web article
orthodoxeurope.org/theospirit/000013.php
“The Spiritual World of Isaac the Syrian”
by Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev

Hilarion Alfeyev, The Spiritual World of Isaac the Syrian. Cistercian Studies Series, Number 175. Kalamazoo MI and Spencer MA: Cistercian Publications, 2000. Pp. 321.

 

[John_Henry]

I cannot read through all the posts. I am sure someone else has raised this point, but from the CCC:

[393](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/393.htm’) It is the *irrevocable *character of [the fallen angels’] choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels’ sin unforgivable. "There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death."272

 

[John_Henry]

I cannot read all the posts but I am sure someone else has brought this up, from the CCC:

[393](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/393.htm’) It is the *irrevocable *character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels’ sin unforgivable. "There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death."272

 

[jrabs]

John_Henry:

I cannot read all the posts but I am sure someone else has brought this up, from the CCC:

393 It is the *irrevocable *character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels’ sin unforgivable. "There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death."272

I think you have summed this up for all of us. When in doubt, check the CCC. Thanks

 

[awalt]

Malachi4U:

The Catholic Church teaches that God is a forgiving God.
Protestants are saved by faith alone.
Can lucifer be saved? Why not?

The Bible also says people’s hearts can become hardened so they can never be saved/believe in Jesus ChHrist as their Savior. So I have always assumed that’s analogous to what happened to Satan.

An interesting Biblical entry that has long made me wonder, in Revelation it states that Satan will be sent to the ring of fire for 1000 years, and (paraphrasing) “he will then be allowed out for awhile”. The Bible doesn’t say what he does then (implies tempts people some more, maybe tempts those that were born in the 1000 year reign?), or what happens next - God has not chosen to enlighten us on that yet.

While I don’t believe any other ending, it does leave the door open that some other scenario could happen for Satan (like being saved). But I don’t believe it, I believe either his heart was eternally hardened against God, he is being eternally punished for prior transgressions against God (think how many billions of people throughout history he has caused to be destroyed from a life with God!), or both.

It’s interesting to find these kinds of places in the Bible where the full story has not been exposed to us yet.

 

[BibleReader]

There was a theologian made cardinal, von Balthazar, who *before *he was made cardinal, maintained, and was much criticized for maintaining, that there is a chance that Hell will be empty at the end of time.

The logic (which I don’t necessarily agree with) was this: Scripture was written to be ambiguous on this subject; the ambiguity may reflect the way God works: He doesn’t force us to do anything, in the salvation department. When God decides to save mankind, why should He be inefficient? Why should He succeed in confronting evil and overwhelming evil in the case of some folks only, not all?

Some, in response, extended the logic to the evil angels.

Although I personally think that images like the dragon in the Book of Revelation sweeping a third of the stars from the sky is a picture of about a third of mankind being lost to the kingdom of Hell, I don’t think that we should toss out Cardinal von Balthazar’s analysis as the analysis of an idiot. Is has some logic to it.

 

[Sean.McKenzie]

jpleporte:

Sure I’ll jump on this.

Lucifer or “Light-bearer” is the name of the leader of the angels who rebeled against God. (I mention this so that the meaning of the quoted scriptural passage can be seen to clearly apply to Lucifer/Satan/The Devil.)

After being tempted by a devil during his 40 days of fast, Christ commands “Depart from me ye cursed into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels.” Matt XXV, v41.

Now the “everlasting fire” reffered to is of course Hell. And the adjective “everlasting” used here clearly indicates the duration of their stay there. Therefore, noone who goes to Hell has any hope of salvation from there.

Now angels are purely spiritual beings. They have not the impediments to intellect that man has, thus there guilt is immeasurably greater than mans. Therefore God showed mercy to men when they sinned, though he spared not the angels when they sinned:

Gen II “THey rebelled against God - Lucifer, their leader, saying: “We shall be like unto the Most High; we will place our throne above the stars.” Then there was a great strife in heaven. Micheal and the otherangels who remained faithful to God, fought against the bad and rebellious spirits, whose chief is now called Satan, or the devil. The bad angels were conquered, and cast from heaven down to hell.”

Christ came specifically to redeem man, not the angels, who had no need, nor devils (fallen angels) who had already been judged and condemned to hell, but only for man. “For God so loved the world, that He sent His only Son . . .” Man needed redemption. God became man to redeem Man, not to redeem spiritual beings. Jesus died on the cross that Man might live, not that devils would be restored to life.

Finally, it would be pointless to pray for one in Hell, and since we know Satan is in Hell, we know we cannot help him by our prayers. But our prayers for someone who is deceased will be applied by God in a manner befitting the prayers. Thus you may pray for any deceased human, and though they might be in Hell, your prayers will not be wasted.

JPL

I thought Lucifer mean morning light, light or star, that was my understanding, In revelation, thre dragon swept 1/3 of the stars out of the sky (angels) this is the great schism in heaven, if you will the rebellion, so if the stars are angels Lucifer was the highest angel.

 

[Sean.McKenzie]

jpleporte:

Sure I’ll jump on this.

Lucifer or “Light-bearer” is the name of the leader of the angels who rebeled against God. (I mention this so that the meaning of the quoted scriptural passage can be seen to clearly apply to Lucifer/Satan/The Devil.)

After being tempted by a devil during his 40 days of fast, Christ commands “Depart from me ye cursed into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels.” Matt XXV, v41.

Now the “everlasting fire” reffered to is of course Hell. And the adjective “everlasting” used here clearly indicates the duration of their stay there. Therefore, noone who goes to Hell has any hope of salvation from there.

Now angels are purely spiritual beings. They have not the impediments to intellect that man has, thus there guilt is immeasurably greater than mans. Therefore God showed mercy to men when they sinned, though he spared not the angels when they sinned:

Gen II “THey rebelled against God - Lucifer, their leader, saying: “We shall be like unto the Most High; we will place our throne above the stars.” Then there was a great strife in heaven. Micheal and the otherangels who remained faithful to God, fought against the bad and rebellious spirits, whose chief is now called Satan, or the devil. The bad angels were conquered, and cast from heaven down to hell.”

Christ came specifically to redeem man, not the angels, who had no need, nor devils (fallen angels) who had already been judged and condemned to hell, but only for man. “For God so loved the world, that He sent His only Son . . .” Man needed redemption. God became man to redeem Man, not to redeem spiritual beings. Jesus died on the cross that Man might live, not that devils would be restored to life.

Finally, it would be pointless to pray for one in Hell, and since we know Satan is in Hell, we know we cannot help him by our prayers. But our prayers for someone who is deceased will be applied by God in a manner befitting the prayers. Thus you may pray for any deceased human, and though they might be in Hell, your prayers will not be wasted.

JPL

I thought Lucifer mean morning light, light or star, that was my understanding, In revelation, thre dragon swept 1/3 of the stars out of the sky (angels) this is the great schism in heaven, if you will the rebellion, so if the stars are angels Lucifer was the highest angel. :banghead:

 

[gladtobe]

If you believe the bible, the bible states clearly that the devil and his demons will someday be placed in the eternal lake of fire where they will be tormented forever and ever.Revelation chapter 20. Do you believe what the bible says?

 

[Sean.McKenzie]

gladtobe:

If you believe the bible, the bible states clearly that the devil and his demons will someday be placed in the eternal lake of fire where they will be tormented forever and ever.Revelation chapter 20. Do you believe what the bible says?

Absolutlely, i believe what the Bible teaches. I eblieve that St. Michael will chain Satan up for all eternity!!!