Can Mary be Sinless and Intercede for you?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Truthfaithlove
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Gamera said:
But you’ve already condede that this refers to original sin, not personal sin. You already conceded that babies can’t commit personal sin. And the Bible says not all adults have, either. Luke 1:6 says Zechariah and Elizabeth never committed personal sin. The text of Romans shows that Paul is discussing original sin, saying all peoples, not all individuals, have sinned. Repeating theses verses does nothing to advance your argument that every person has committed personal sin. Luke 1:28 says Mary was “full of grace,” and you say she wasn’t. I believe Luke 1:28.

By the way, if “all” means “all” then why doesn’t “men” mean “men”? You can’t have it both ways. Why are you so literal about “all” but not so literal about “men?”
Click to expand...
1 - Yes, babies don’t commit personal sins, they have original sin.

2 - Luke 1:6 does not say Zechariah & Elizabeth had no sin either. They would at least have original sin. It merely says they were righteous. Righteous does not mean sinless as I have already shown you. It means God deems them righteous. Romans 4:5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

3 - I never said everyone has personal sin. I merely said everyone has sin.

4 - Mankind is meant to denote both genders. All men means all of mankind. It does not mean half of mankind. All of course means all. All never means partial. If it were, it would have been written thus.
 
Scientiphic said:
1 - Yes, babies don’t commit personal sins, they have original sin.

2 - Luke 1:6 does not say Zechariah & Elizabeth had no sin either. It merely says they were righteous. Righteous does not mean sinless as I have already shown you. It means God deems them righteous. Romans 4:5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

3 - I never said everyone has personal sin. I merely said everyone has sin.

4 - Mankind is meant to denote both genders. All men means all of mankind. It does not mean half of mankind. All of course means all. All never means partial. If it were, it would have been written thus.
Click to expand...
Did God choose Mary to be his mother?

Did God need a woman to be born as a man?

How much sin do you think God would allow his mother to commit?
 
Gamera said:
Scientiphic, I think it’s now fair to ask, have you read the entire Bible, cover to cover? I ask because you continue referring to just a select handful of verses.
Click to expand...
Gamera, believe it or not. I have read the bible 5 times in my entire life. 3 times cover to cover in chronological order of print, 2 times scheduled according to my selection (ie not chronological).
 
Scientiphic said:
1 - Yes, babies don’t commit personal sins, they have original sin.

2 - Luke 1:6 does not say Zechariah & Elizabeth had no sin either. They would at least have original sin. It merely says they were righteous. Righteous does not mean sinless as I have already shown you. It means God deems them righteous. Romans 4:5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

3 - I never said everyone has personal sin. I merely said everyone has sin.

4 - Mankind is meant to denote both genders. All men means all of mankind. It does not mean half of mankind. All of course means all. All never means partial. If it were, it would have been written thus.
Click to expand...
Are you insinuating that the Mother of Jesus was wicked???
 
Scientiphic said:
1 - Yes, babies don’t commit personal sins, they have original sin.
Click to expand...
Okay, good. So, “all have sinned” doesn’t mean everyone has committed personal sin. I’m glad we’ve settled that.
Scientiphic said:
2 - Luke 1:6 does not say Zechariah & Elizabeth had no sin either. They would at least have original sin. It merely says they were righteous. Righteous does not mean sinless as I have already shown you. It means God deems them righteous. Romans 4:5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.
Click to expand...
But that isn’t what it says. Luke 1:6 says Zechariah and Elizabeth “followed all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blamelessly.” It doesn’t say they had faith and their faith was credited as righteousness. On the contrary, it specifically says they obeyed all the Lord’s commandments blamelessly (and as you would say, “all” means “all”). Yes, they still inherited original sin, but they never commited personal sin.
Scientiphic said:
  • I never said everyone has personal sin. I merely said everyone has sin.
Click to expand...
But you seem to suggest that Mary committed personal sin because “all have sinned.” Did I misunderstand you?
Scientiphic said:
4 - Mankind is meant to denote both genders. All men means all of mankind. It does not mean half of mankind. All of course means all. All never means partial. If it were, it would have been written thus.
Click to expand...
But see, this is a total double standard. You’re accusing us of not really believing the Bible because we don’t take “all” to mean “all,” yet in the same verse, you don’t take “men” to mean “men.” So instead of assuming we “don’t believe the Bible” perhaps you might accept the proposition that two readers can “believe” equally yet not have identical interpretations.
Scientiphic said:
…All of course means all. All never means partial. If it were, it would have been written thus.
Click to expand...
So when Luke 1:6 says Zechariah and Elizabeth obeyed ALL the commandments of the Lord, “all” really means “all” there too, right?
 
Did God choose Mary to be his mother?
Answer: God chose Mary to be His vessel. God does not have a mother. Even if there’s no Mary, God can pick another. You mean without Moses, the Jews will be permanently stuck in Egypt??? God can always raise up another.

Did God need a woman to be born as a man?
Answer: No, God does not need that. In the book of Genesis 32, we see God wrestling with Jacob, and we all know that God walked in the garden of Eden. Like you said, nothing is impossible. Of course God can come as a man without the need of a woman.

How much sin do you think God would allow his mother to commit?
Answer: Mary’s conception of Jesus had nothing to do with any impregnation of any man since it is the Holy Spirit that caused it to form and to grow. There is therefore NO REASON to believe why the baby would have any sin EVEN IF MARY HAD SIN.

“The thought that the host must be clean in order for the birth to be clean is flawed because the conception of the birth itself has nothing to do with the host. It is the work of the Holy Ghost.”

.
 
Scientiphic said:
Gamera, believe it or not. I have read the bible 5 times in my entire life. 3 times cover to cover in chronological order of print, 2 times scheduled according to my selection (ie not chronological).
Click to expand...
I believe you. We sometimes get visitors telling us to “read our Bibles” who quickly turn out to be nearly Scripturally illiterate but for a few memorized verses, so please don’t be offended that I ask – I’ve asked it of many people.
 
Do you deny that Jesus is God?
Answer: I do not. God is a spirit, not a man. John 4:24 God is Spirit. The man Jesus is called Jesus because God came to live amongst man (Emmanuel). It is not the flesh of Jesus that makes Him God, it is God’s Spirit. John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing

Can you explain to us how God could be born as a man without a mother?
Answer: God can come as a man just like He can make Adam. There is no need for a woman as I have already shown you in the book of Genesis 32. The reason why there was a use for a woman here is because God had to die on the cross as a man, and not as a specially made being just for sacrifice because that will fail the fulfilment of the law.

You didn’t answer the question, of course.
Answer: I have already answered you. Mary is not sinless. Her righteousness is determined by God.

.
 
Scientiphic said:
Do you deny that Jesus is God?
Answer: I do not. God is a spirit, not a man. John 4:24 God is Spirit. The man Jesus is called Jesus because God came to live amongst man (Emmanuel). It is not the flesh of Jesus that makes Him God, it is God’s Spirit. John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Scientiphic said:
Do you deny that Jesus is God?
Answer: I do not. God is a spirit, not a man. John 4:24 God is Spirit. The man Jesus is called Jesus because God came to live amongst man (Emmanuel). It is not the flesh of Jesus that makes Him God, it is God’s Spirit. John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing

Can you explain to us how God could be born as a man without a mother?
Answer: God can come as a man just like He can make Adam. There is no need for a woman as I have already shown you in the book of Genesis 32. The reason why there was a use for a woman here is because God had to die on the cross as a man, and not as a specially made being just for sacrifice because that will fail the fulfilment of the law.

You didn’t answer the question, of course.
Answer: I have already answered you. Mary is not sinless. Her righteousness is determined by God.

.
Click to expand...
So you believe either:

a) The flesh that Jesus took on from the new Ark of the covenant was tainted with the stain of Original sin.

or

b) Mary cooperated with evil. When the Word of God clearly states that He would put enmity between her and Satan.

which is it? Or is it both?
 
Scientiphic said:
“The thought that the host must be clean in order for the birth to be clean is flawed because the conception of the birth itself has nothing to do with the host. It is the work of the Holy Ghost.”

.
Click to expand...
Really? Was it the Holy Ghost’s flesh or Mary’s flesh?
 
Scientiphic said:
Did God choose Mary to be his mother?
Answer: God chose Mary to be His vessel. God does not have a mother. Even if there’s no Mary, God can pick another. You mean without Moses, the Jews will be permanently stuck in Egypt??? God can always raise up another.

Did God need a woman to be born as a man?
Answer: No, God does not need that. In the book of Genesis 32, we see God wrestling with Jacob, and we all know that God walked in the garden of Eden. Like you said, nothing is impossible. Of course God can come as a man without the need of a woman.

How much sin do you think God would allow his mother to commit?
Answer: Mary’s conception of Jesus had nothing to do with any impregnation of any man since it is the Holy Spirit that caused it to form and to grow. There is therefore NO REASON to believe why the baby would have any sin EVEN IF MARY HAD SIN.

“The thought that the host must be clean in order for the birth to be clean is flawed because the conception of the birth itself has nothing to do with the host. It is the work of the Holy Ghost.”

.
Click to expand...
You believe God can do anything but yet you don’t believe He could make the Mother of the Word made flesh without sin?
Oh ye of little Faith!

Why do you despise your Mother so?
 
jam070406 said:
You believe God can do anything but yet you don’t believe He could make the Mother of the Word made flesh without sin?
Oh ye of little Faith!

Why do you despise your Mother so?
Click to expand...
Modern Protestants don’t recognize Mary to be their mother, although we see Mary’s motherhood of all believers clearly in Rev. 12:17 and John 19:27, a proposition with which even the first Protestant Reformers agreed.
 
40.png
CHESTERTONRULES:
God is a Spirit.

Just because God came in the form of a man does not make the one who gave birth to the man the mother of God. That is blasphemy. The woman merely provided a host for the form that has the abidance of God.

Put it another way, by your same logic. The president of USA decided finally that he shall try his hand at plumbing. In order to do so, he had to find out more about plumbing from a lady plumber who also washes toilets. After 2 hours of learning, he finally comes out and able to service his toilet problems.

Now, does that make the toilet washer the Teacher of the President? And will henceforth all who sees her Hail her as the President’s Lecturer?

So, she is the Queen of the American Presidency?
  • Do you finally see the absurdy of your claims?
  • Think. The only people in this world who will hail her as the president’s lecturer are those who have everything to gain by elevating her to cult status because they will otherwise have no connection with the president whatsoever.
.
 
Jam says: “You believe God can do anything but yet you don’t believe He could make the Mother of the Word made flesh without sin? Oh ye of little Faith!”

Answer: Correction. Its not even a question of faith! It’s a question of following scripture and being obedient unto God’s word.

Since Scripture clearly declared that nobody is good and none righteous, I take God’s word for it. That’s the difference between us. Why should I believe in something that is not even written and then tell myself to have faith for it? That’s pure nonsense.

Why would anybody believe Mary was sinless when the bible never says so?
 
Scientiphic said:
Did God choose Mary to be his mother?
Answer: God chose Mary to be His vessel. God does not have a mother.
Click to expand...
But according to Isaiah 9:6 God the Son does have a mother. And His mother is the Virgin (Isaiah 7:14) Mary (Luke 1:27). To claim that Jesus was not born but merely carried in a vessel, is to deny the Incarnation. And we know too well the consequencies for such a denial.
 
placido said:
But according to Isaiah 9:6 God the Son does have a mother. And His mother is the Virgin (Isaiah 7:14) Mary (Luke 1:27). To claim that Jesus was not born but merely carried in a vessel, is to deny the Incarnation. And we know too well the consequencies for such a denial.
Click to expand...
Nobody can deny that Christ was born. That is not even the point of contention. Never was. I do not know where you got that idea from. I repeat myself here:

God is a Spirit.

Just because God came in the form of a man does not make the one who gave birth to the man the mother of God. That is blasphemy. The woman merely provided a host for the form that has the abidance of God.

Put it another way, by your same logic. The president of USA decided finally that he shall try his hand at plumbing. In order to do so, he had to find out more about plumbing from a lady plumber who also washes toilets. After 2 hours of learning, he finally comes out and able to service his toilet problems.

Now, does that make the toilet washer the Teacher of the President? And will henceforth all who sees her Hail her as the President’s Lecturer?

So, she is the Queen of the American Presidency?
  • Do you finally see the absurdity of your claims?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top