Can Mary be Sinless and Intercede for you?

[Good_Fella]

St.Thomas Aquinas discusses the meaning of the angelic salutation at the Annunciation:

*"We must now consider concerning the first part of this prayer (“Hail Mary”) that in ancient times it was no small event when Angels appeared to men; and that man should show reverence was especially praiseworthy. Thus, it is written to the praise of Abraham that he received the Angels with all courtesy and showed them reverence. But that an angel should show reverence to a man was never heard of until the Angel reverently greeted the Blessed Virgin saying: ‘Hail.’

"In olden time an Angel would not show reverence to a man, but a man would deeply revere an Angel. This is because Angels are greater than men, and indeed in three ways. First, they are greater than men in dignity. This is because the Angel is of a spiritual nature: ‘Who makest Thy angels spirits.’ But on the other hand, man is of a corruptible nature, for Abraham said: ‘I will speak to my Lord, whereas I am dust and ashes.’ It was not fitting, therefore, that a spiritual and incorruptible creature should show reverence to one that is corruptible as is man. Secondly, an Angel is closer to God. The Angel, indeed, is of the family of God, and as it were stands ever by Him: ‘Thousands of thousands ministered to Him, and ten thousand times a hundred thousand stood before Him.’ Man, on the other hand, is rather a stranger and afar off from God because of sin: ‘I have gone afar off.’ Therefore, it is fitting that man should reverence an Angel who is an intimate and one of the household of the King.

"Then, thirdly, the Angels far exceed men in the fullness of the splendor of divine grace. For Angels participate in the highest degree in the divine light: ‘Is there any numbering of His soldiers? And upon whom shall not His light arise?’ Hence, Angels always appear among men clothed in light, but men on the contrary, although they partake somewhat of the light of grace, nevertheless do so in a much slighter degree and with a certain obscurity. It was, therefore, not fitting that an Angel should show reverence to a man until it should come to pass that one would be found in human nature who exceeded the Angels in these three points in which we have seen that they excel over men – and this was the Blessed Virgin. To show that she excelled the Angels in these, the Angel desired to show her reverence, and so he said: ‘Ave ("Hail).’

"The Blessed Virgin was superior to any of the angels in the fullness of grace, and as an indication of this the Angel showed reverence to her by saying: ‘Full of grace.’ This is as if he said: ‘I show thee reverence because thou dost excel me in the fullness of grace.’ "*
‘The Hail Mary’

The angelic doctor continues by explaining how Mary was full of grace in three ways.

PAX :tiphat:

 

[RobGentner]

Are you referring Job prays for his friends? If so, that is a biblical thing to do. It is a biblical thing for for fellow believers in this world to pray directly to God through the Lord Jesus. What’s not biblical is to ask a departed believer to pray for you.

Hi rinnie, :tiphat:

Didn’t you know JA4T1T doesn’t believe in the communion of saints? Let me explain. Some of the counterfeit denominations didn’t have time to “borrow” all our teachings. They ran through the night with only what they could carry…That was “most” of the real Bible. :bible1: The police report listed as missing:
Number of books from the Bible: 66
Chapters: 1189
Verses: 31101
Words: 783,137
Letters: 3566480
Number of promises from the Bible: 1260

Lucky, we had more copies and so much more of God’s words than the 783,137 then they “borrowed”. It is the Christian thing to say they “borrowed”. I mean, they may return them after they make their own book. I know the Mormans didn’t but they still might some day! Anyway, bottom line, the CC didn’t press charges!
We have explained the Communion of Saints many times both on this and many other threads. But JA4 keeps looking in the NT (I think they lost part of the OT that they had) Does that help explain it to you?

They aren’t really dumb, just confused. That is understandable! You try to understand the Bible without the CC to interpret it for you and see what happens! It is confusing!

Oh well, I will stop being serious for now.:extrahappy:

It is now Joke time! Kids aren’t the only ones who like potty humor. That’s was the topic of:

The World’s Oldest Recorded Joke-- – 1900 B.C.
The joke, told by the Sumerians, a people who lived in what is now southern Iraq in one of the earliest known civilizations of the world, was found inscribed on stone tablets. According to researchers from Britain’s University of Wolverhampton, It went like this:

“Something which has never occurred since time immemorial; a young woman did not fart in her husband’s lap.”

OK, maybe you had to be there.

 

[RobGentner]

Nevertheless, I think rinnie’s idea is very reasonable: if God uses angels as messengers to speak to us, doesn’t it make sense that he would also have them bring our prayers to him?

Hi PeteJ, :tiphat:

When has Justasking4 been logical? Look in our version of the NT. You know they are going to ask you “Where does it say that in the NT”. My advise pull a “JA4 trick” and ask them:

“Not sure what you are saying. Can you clarify?”
God Bless, keep up the battle! Reinforcements are coming! All the Angels and Saints in heaven!

 

[happilycatholic]

I can’t think of any teaching in the Scriptures where this is said. Do you have a reference?

Here’s your reference JustAsking: The angel Gabriel.

In the Gospel of Luke, Gabriel reveals to the Jewish Pharisee and Priest Zechariah that John the Baptist will be born to Zechariah’s wife Elizabeth (Luke 1:5-20) and visits Elizabeth’s cousin Mary to reveal that she will give birth to Jesus.

So let’s see, as far back as before the birth of Jesus at God’s command, angels and saints have been interceding for us on His behalf.

To Intercede: To plead on another’s behalf and/or to act as mediator in a dispute.

And so if angels can intercede for us, that means that there is definitely life in Heaven, living beings that can not only hear us but they can certainly communicate with us at God’s will.

When you finally give up your misinformed notion that God is only an “entity” that lives somewhere in the sky with some limited magic power that can’t cross over to “our world” and that there’s no one up in the sky with him that can hear or see us, you may just have a fuller life in Jesus Christ.

God’s Grace is omnipresent. God’s Grace is a mystery. Nothing in the Bible can explain it or give you an example of it. Most of all, God doesn’t need your approval or your belief to give the rest of us His gift of Grace. It’s not something you “find” it’s a gift. It’s already been given to you, you just need to accept it in all it’s forms. Whether you like it or not there are saints in Heaven at this moment praying that you’ll let God’s Grace come into your life and that you will only believe and not require proof.

When you stop looking for proof and just believe you will be more at peace.

Today is All Saints Day. My prayer to the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit and all the saints in Heaven on your behalf is that they will continue to pray for you and bring you closer to God, who is not confined between the pages of a Book. I pray that you will stop requiring proof of God’s Grace and realize that you already have God’s Grace. That it is a gift, not a verse that says it’s a gift.

Lord, Hear Our Prayer. Amen.

Peace Be With You JustAsking4

 

[RobGentner]

hi happily,:tiphat:

You do realize you wasted too much time on your reply with JustAsking4The100thTime? But I know you did it because you think it might help. I will join my prayer with your that it does, but don’t wait for the sun to stand still in the sky!

I just received this. It says it all. All I can add is Amen!

Church is not Wal-Mart

[NB. Permission to repost/copy with proper attribution is given.]

1. The Roman Catholic Church isn’t WalMart or Burger King; it’s the Body of Christ.

2). Catholic priests, nuns, sisters/brothers and laity aren’t
employees; we are members of the Body of Christ.

3). The doctrine and dogma of the Catholic Church are not consumer products that the Church’s employees sell to those who want them; Catholic doctrine and dogma express the unchanging truth of the faith.

4). Life in a Catholic parish is not a trip to Disney Land or Target or McDonald’s where your consumer needs and whims are catered to by the whimpering clergy and lay staff; parish life is the life of Christ for the local Catholic family.

5). You do not come into the Catholic Church because you like the building better than you like the Methodist chapel; or because the priest at the Catholic parish is cuter than the Baptist preacher; or because you heard that the homilies are shorter at St. Bubba’s by the Lake than they are at the Unitarian Church. You come into the Catholic Church because you believe that the Catholic faith is the truth of the gospel taught by Christ himself and given to his apostles.

6). Leaving the Catholic Church because a priest was mean to you, or because sister whacked you with a ruler, or because the church secretary looked at you funny is as stupid as giving up on the truths of math because you hate your high school algebra teacher. Why would anyone let a crazy priest or a cranky nun or anyone else for the matter drive you out of the faith you believe is true? My only conclusion: you never thought it was true to begin with; or, you have a favorite sin the Church teaches against and crazy priests and cranky nuns is as good an excuse as any to leave and pursue your sin all the while feeling justified b/c Father and/or Sister are such jerks.

7). Anyone who comes in the Catholic Church thinking that they will find clouds of angels at Mass dressed as parishioners; hordes of perfect saints kneeling for communion; seminaries packed with angelic young men burning to be priests; a parish hall stacked to the ceiling with morally pure people eager to serve; and a priest without flaw or blemish, well, you’re cracked and you probably need to go back and try again.** Telling Catholics that they aren’t perfect makes as much sense as telling fish they’re wet. We know already. Move on.**

8). Of the hundreds of priests and religious I know, I know two whocould count as saints right now. The rest of us are deeply flawed, impure, struggling creatures who know all too well that we fail utterly to meet the basic standards of holiness. For that matter: so do you. Get in line.

9).** The Catholic Church owes no one a revision of her doctrine or dogma. She didn’t change to save most of Europe from becoming Protestant, why would you imagine that she would change just to get you in one of her parishes?**

10). If you want to become Catholic, do it. But do it because you think the Church teaches the true faith. If a cranky priest on a blogsite is enough to keep you from embracing the truth of the faith, then two things are painfully clear:

1. you do not believe the Church teaches the faith;
2. and you care more about expresssing your hurt consumer feelings than you do for your immortal soul.

Fr. Philip, OP

 

[janw]

Thanks Rob, I really like “Church is not Walmart” and I’m sure it speaks to the heart of many.

 

[happilycatholic]

Thanks Rob, I really like “Church is not Walmart” and I’m sure it speaks to the heart of many.

Ditto. Thanks Rob.

 

[justasking4]

rinnie;4363169]But thats not what was said. God told job’s friends to have him pray for them. It has nothing to do with a biblical thing. I have never heard of a biblical thing. You either listen to the word of God or you do not. Now would you not consider Job praying for his friends intercession or not?

Yes

Why did God not tell Jobs friends to pray for themselves. Because according to you we cannot intercede for others. But In Job it plainly states otherwise. Now how in the world could it be okay for job to intercede for us and not the Mother of CHrist?

We are to pray for each other. That is taught in Scripture. Paul asked for the prayers from people in the churches he was working with. What you never find in Scripture is prayer being said to deceased person. You never find any teaching or exhortation of imploring the living of those who are in the next world for help here. The only One we are to pray to is God. It is the Lord Jesus Who is the “bridge” between us here and the Father. The deceased saints and Mary are not given this role.

 

[jmcrae]

Ditto. Thanks Rob.

I saved it to my hard drive.

 

[Gamera]

Yes

We are to pray for each other. That is taught in Scripture. Paul asked for the prayers from people in the churches he was working with. What you never find in Scripture is prayer being said to deceased person. You never find any teaching or exhortation of imploring the living of those who are in the next world for help here.

Sure we do. Heb 12:23 says we have access to the “spirits of just men made perfect.”

In contrast, what we don’t find in Scripture is any suggestion that everything true must be found in Scripture.

The only One we are to pray to is God. It is the Lord Jesus Who is the “bridge” between us here and the Father. The deceased saints and Mary are not given this role.

Exactly. Mary and the saints are not given a role of being a “bridge” to God. Nobody says they are. They are intercessors, not mediators. Jesus is the mediator between God and man.

 

[justasking4]

happilycatholic;4364711]
Here’s your reference JustAsking: The angel Gabriel.

In the Gospel of Luke, Gabriel reveals to the Jewish Pharisee and Priest Zechariah that John the Baptist will be born to Zechariah’s wife Elizabeth (Luke 1:5-20) and visits Elizabeth’s cousin Mary to reveal that she will give birth to Jesus.

So let’s see, as far back as before the birth of Jesus at God’s command, angels and saints have been interceding for us on His behalf.

What you have in Luke is an angel sent by God to Zechariah to announce to him what is about to happen to him. This passage is not about a prayer.

To Intercede: To plead on another’s behalf and/or to act as mediator in a dispute.

And so if angels can intercede for us,

Where is the angel in Luke 1:5-20 interceding for Zechariah? Did Zechariah ask for help for help from the angel?

that means that there is definitely life in Heaven, living beings that can not only hear us but they can certainly communicate with us at God’s will.

There is no indication in the passage that this angel heard some prayer from Zechariah.

When you finally give up your misinformed notion that God is only an “entity” that lives somewhere in the sky with some limited magic power that can’t cross over to “our world” and that there’s no one up in the sky with him that can hear or see us, you may just have a fuller life in Jesus Christ.

What you are doing is speculating that angels and saints can hear your prayers when such a thing is not taught in Scripture. The above example is a case in point. This passage is not about prayer or any intercession from a prayer.

God’s Grace is omnipresent. God’s Grace is a mystery. Nothing in the Bible can explain it or give you an example of it.

The Lord Jesus is the greatest example of God’s grace. In fact John 1:17 makes this very point when it says— For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.

Most of all, God doesn’t need your approval or your belief to give the rest of us His gift of Grace. It’s not something you “find” it’s a gift. It’s already been given to you, you just need to accept it in all it’s forms. Whether you like it or not there are saints in Heaven at this moment praying that you’ll let God’s Grace come into your life and that you will only believe and not require proof.

You can make this claim that “there are saints in Heaven at this moment praying” but you cannot ground such a belief in the Scriptures. What I do know is that Lord Jesus Christ alone is out Great High Priest Who intercedes before the Father for us. He alone has this role.
14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.
16 Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
Hebrews 4
You don’t need Mary or any saint in heaven to pray for you. You have the Lord Jesus Who alone has this power to intercede for you. He is more than sufficient.

When you stop looking for proof and just believe you will be more at peace.

We must never just accept a teaching from the church or anyone unless it can be shown to be firmly grounded in the Scriptures. If its not grounded in the Scriptures it’s a teaching of men and men can and do err. We are to examine all things carefully as I Thess 5:21 exhorts us. Don’t just accept something because its been taught for a long time or because it sounds reasonable but compare it to the Scriptures. Do the Scriptures teach it?

Today is All Saints Day. My prayer to the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit and all the saints in Heaven on your behalf is that they will continue to pray for you and bring you closer to God, who is not confined between the pages of a Book. I pray that you will stop requiring proof of God’s Grace and realize that you already have God’s Grace. That it is a gift, not a verse that says it’s a gift.

Lord, Hear Our Prayer. Amen

.

Peace Be With You JustAsking4

Ditto

 

[justasking4]

I saved it to my hard drive.

I’m save it to mine to…somethings are priceless View attachment 4466

 

[jmcrae]

What you have in Luke is an angel sent by God to Zechariah to announce to him what is about to happen to him. This passage is not about a prayer.

Zechariah is communicating with a being who resides in Heaven; how is it not prayer?

 

[Gamera]

What you are doing is speculating that angels and saints can hear your prayers when such a thing is not taught in Scripture. The above example is a case in point. This passage is not about prayer or any intercession from a prayer.

Sure it is “taught in Scripture.” Rev. 8:3 shows an angel bringing “the prayers of all the saints” to God.

You don’t need Mary or any saint in heaven to pray for you. You have the Lord Jesus Who alone has this power to intercede for you. He is more than sufficient.

“Need?” Nobody ever said we “need” Mary or the saints to pray for us. That isn’t a Catholic teaching.

We must never just accept a teaching from the church or anyone unless it can be shown to be firmly grounded in the Scriptures. If its not grounded in the Scriptures it’s a teaching of men and men can and do err. We are to examine all things carefully as I Thess 5:21 exhorts us. Don’t just accept something because its been taught for a long time or because it sounds reasonable but compare it to the Scriptures. Do the Scriptures teach it?

No, that’s totally un-Biblcial. Nowhere does the Bible teach that all teachings must be “firmly grounded in the Scriptures.” That is a manmade tradition. The Bible says that Apostolic Tradition is “the word of God,” not the word of man (1 Thes 2:13).

 

[Peter_J]

You don’t need Mary or any saint in heaven to pray for you.

I don’t think I need your prayers either, JA, but I appreciate them nevertheless.

We must never just accept a teaching from the church or anyone unless it can be shown to be firmly grounded in the Scriptures.

I don’t mean to nit-pick, but I’d like to point out that if a teaching is false, then it isn’t really from the church. That is to say, it isn’t from the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church that we all profess in the creed.

 

[RobGentner]

I’m save it to mine to…somethings are priceless View attachment 4466

Well, JA4, at least one of you has a touch of intelligence. :flowers: I hope it is the female!
Fr Philip made me angry.

I wanted to say those things first!

). Anyone who comes in the Catholic Church thinking that they will find clouds of angels at Mass dressed as parishioners; hordes of perfect saints kneeling for communion; seminaries packed with angelic young men burning to be priests; a parish hall stacked to the ceiling with morally pure people eager to serve; and a priest without flaw or blemish, well, you’re cracked and you probably need to go back and try again. Telling Catholics that they aren’t perfect makes as much sense as telling fish they’re wet. We know already. Move on.

9). The Catholic Church owes no one a revision of her doctrine or dogma. She didn’t change to save most of Europe from becoming Protestant, why would you imagine that she would change just to get you in one of her parishes?

AMEN TO THAT!

 

[adrift]

I can’t think of any teaching in the Scriptures where this is said. Do you have a reference?

Matthew
Chapter 18
10
"See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven always look upon the face of my heavenly Father.

Daniel 10
20
When he spoke to me, I grew strong and said, “Speak, my lord, for you have strengthened me.” “Do you know,” he asked, "why I have come to you? Soon I must fight the prince of Persia again. When I leave, the prince of Greece will come;
21
but I shall tell you what is written in the truthful book. No one supports me against all these except Michael, your prince,

Tobit
Chapter 5
4
Tobiah went to look for someone acquainted with the roads who would travel with him to Media. As soon as he went out, he found the angel Raphael standing before him, though he did not know that this was an angel of God.
5
Tobiah said to him, “Who are you, young man?” He replied “I am an Israelite, one of your kinsmen. I have come here to work.” Tobiah said, “Do you know the way to Media?”
6
3 The other replied: “Yes, I have been there many times. I know the place well and I know all the routes. I have often traveled to Media; I used to stay with our kinsman Gabael, who lives at Rages in Media. It is a good two days’ travel from Ecbatana to Rages, for Rages is situated at the mountains, Ecbatana out on the plateau.”
7
Tobiah said to him, "Wait for me, young man, till I go back and tell my father; for I need you to make the journey with me. I will, of course, pay you.

 

[happilycatholic]

JustAsking:

If you hold to your “teachings of men” theory, then why do you still believe in sola scriptura? Show me where in the Scripture it says to take these words and believe that they are a whole message from God and to believe in these words and only these words.

Sola scriptura is a man-made doctrine made a doctrine of Reformation when Martin Luther added the word “alone” to Romans 3:28. If you don’t think this is a “teaching of man” what do you think it is? (This is not rhetorical, please post an answer.)

And if you don’t think an angel sent from Heaven who speaks to Mary and then she replies to him is an intercession between Heaven and us, then you lack simple vocabulary skills.

I don’t mean to be confrontational, but you seem to lack common sense as well. If an angel comes to me and says, “The Holy Spirit is going to give you a child”, and then I answer back, “Okay”, then I’m thinking that angel has just interceded between God and I.

Intercession does not require a prayer or even an appeal from you, that’s where you are totally confused. God intercedes at His will. We pray for the intercession. We can pray to angels, saints or our own Grandmother to intercede between us and God. I mean she’s (my Grandmother) there and I’m not.

Look, even as a Catholic, besides praying to God of course, I’ve only prayed to the Virgin Mary. Mostly because like her, I sent my son into battle with people that didn’t like him and wanted nothing better than to see him dead. I’ve never prayed to any other saint. Not because I don’t believe, but just because I have a very strong bond with Mary. He came home safe in spite of being hit by four IED’s in one day. On another day, the humvee in front of him was hit, but he was safe.

Any woman who sees her son scorged, beaten and nailed to a cross and says nothing because she believes it is His destiny to do this for all mankind, I have no problem asking her for a little favor every now and then.

And for my son and I, Mary was with him. Not just in prayer. I also used to tell him that God was in his boots with him.

It seems like you have this belief that there is some kind of imaginary boundry between Heaven and us. The only boundry between Heaven and us is the one we create. Heaven is wide open and alive with all those that have gone before us that were pure of heart.

 

[justasking4]

happilycatholic;4366090]JustAsking:

If you hold to your “teachings of men” theory, then why do you still believe in sola scriptura? Show me where in the Scripture it says to take these words and believe that they are a whole message from God and to believe in these words and only these words.

If the inspired-inerrant Scriptures are not the complete message from God then what else is inspired-inerrant? ( If there is a message from God outside it would have to be inspired-inerrant)Do you you have some specific examples from Sacred Tradition that your church calls inspired-inerrant?

Sola scriptura is a man-made doctrine made a doctrine of Reformation when Martin Luther added the word “alone” to Romans 3:28. If you don’t think this is a “teaching of man” what do you think it is? (This is not rhetorical, please post an answer.)

True he did add it. However it is still true that salvation is found only in Christ alone.

And if you don’t think an angel sent from Heaven who speaks to Mary and then she replies to him is an intercession between Heaven and us, then you lack simple vocabulary skills

.
Does your church call Mary’s encounter with the angel a prayer?

I don’t mean to be confrontational, but you seem to lack common sense as well. If an angel comes to me and says, “The Holy Spirit is going to give you a child”, and then I answer back, “Okay”, then I’m thinking that angel has just interceded between God and I.

Intercession does not require a prayer or even an appeal from you, that’s where you are totally confused. God intercedes at His will. We pray for the intercession. We can pray to angels, saints or our own Grandmother to intercede between us and God. I mean she’s (my Grandmother) there and I’m not.

Where has your church defined intercession in the way you are stating it here?

Look, even as a Catholic, besides praying to God of course, I’ve only prayed to the Virgin Mary. Mostly because like her, I sent my son into battle with people that didn’t like him and wanted nothing better than to see him dead. I’ve never prayed to any other saint. Not because I don’t believe, but just because I have a very strong bond with Mary. He came home safe in spite of being hit by four IED’s in one day. On another day, the humvee in front of him was hit, but he was safe.

Good to hear he was safe and i pray he continues to be. What would you say to a Mormon who prays to Joseph Smith for help and has a close connection with him?

Any woman who sees her son scorged, beaten and nailed to a cross and says nothing because she believes it is His destiny to do this for all mankind, I have no problem asking her for a little favor every now and then.

This still would not justify in doing so. The Scriptures never mention any powers attributed to her to intercede. The only One is the Lord Jesus.

And for my son and I, Mary was with him. Not just in prayer. I also used to tell him that God was in his boots with him.

The Scriptures only mention that she was at the crucifixion site. The Passion of the Christ is not totally accurate biblically if this is where you are getting this idea.

It seems like you have this belief that there is some kind of imaginary boundry between Heaven and us. The only boundry between Heaven and us is the one we create. Heaven is wide open and alive with all those that have gone before us that were pure of heart.

The “boundary” are what the Scriptures teach and say. It alone is revelation from God and there is no other. To go beyond what is written is to speculate.

 

[Gamera]

If the inspired-inerrant Scriptures are not the complete message from God then what else is inspired-inerrant? ( If there is a message from God outside it would have to be inspired-inerrant)Do you you have some specific examples from Sacred Tradition that your church calls inspired-inerrant?

The preaching of Christ and the Apostles, which Scripture calls “the word of God,” (1 Thes 2:13).