Can Mary be Sinless and Intercede for you?

[adstrinity]

Forget all the Greek dictionary’s, et al. What would happen if one asks a Greek person who knows the language?

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I don’t want this to be missed/go unanswered.

 

[jmcrae]

Forget all the Greek dictionary’s, et al. What would happen if one asks a Greek person who knows the language?

---

I don’t want this to be missed/go unanswered.

I don’t know of any Greek-speaking people who think that Mary was a sinner - they all believe, from reading the Scriptures, that she was without sin.

 

[Good_Fella]

Part 1
This is the issue where we disagree is where you write -“In other words, the grace God had endowed Mary with at an indefinite time before the Annunciation (Luke 1:30) was given to her as a sign of divine favour,…”
To say that because Mary was favored by God to mean that she was sinless her entire life is to read into this verse far more than it says. There is no hint in this verse that this means she was sinless. The angel certainly does not claim that she had to be sinless to bear the Christ.

Agreed.

The apostles never taught this.Interesting you should use Luke 11:28. If there ever was a passage to support the catholic understanding of Mary this would have been the place to do it. Rather Jesus does not point people to Mary but to the Scriptures.

I suggest you take Greek 101 and learn the grammatical meaning of the expression ‘kecharitomene’. Meanwhile bear in mind that Luke wrote his gospel about seven years after Mary’s death and Assumption. He only writes that Mary had found favor with God by the time the angel appeared to her. Nowhere does he even hint that she fell from God’s grace at any point in her life. The grace Mary had received and cooperated with was ongoing throughout her entire existence on earth. If Luke had perceived Mary as an ordinary sinful creature, then he wouldn’t have extolled her the way he did in his Infancy Narrative. Still he may not have been fully conscious of Mary’s spiritual position with God, but he was compelled to write what he did about Mary by the principal author of the scriptures: the Holy Spirit, who would interpret what the evangelist had penned through the apostolic teaching authority of the Catholic Church.

Perceiving otherwise Luke has the angel say: “Hail, full of grace” (Chaire kecharitomene). In the Magnificat (1:46-47) the evangelist has Mary declare: “My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord.” And in the indicative mood: “My spirit rejoices in God my saviour” (I am saved). A sinful person cannot make such a bold and confident claim while yet living. Luke was aware of that, I’m sure. God had looked upon Mary’s lowliness, and so he intervened by preserving her free from the stain of original sin. Her soul was sanctified upon her conception. This is one reason why all generations shall call Mary blessed (1:48). Indeed, she was not blessed simply by being chosen to be the mother of our Lord. The Almighty has done “great things” (plural) for her (1:49). Finally, Luke expresses our belief in Mary’s personal sinlessness by recording the words of our Lord, who alludes to his mother: “Rather blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it” (11:28). Anyone who observes the word of God, unlike Adam and Eve, is sinless. In the words of our Lord, she is perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect (cf. Mt 5:48).

The angel’s greeting at the Annunciation must be taken in context with these other passages in Luke’s gospel. Only then does the full and true meaning of the expression ‘kecharitomene’ come to light. Mary was endowed with an enduring sanctifying and habitual grace by virtue of her Divine Maternity. If she had ever fallen from God’s grace like Eve, then she would have become an unworthy mother of our sinless Lord. Yet Luke portrays Mary after her death and Assumption as having proved herself worthy. There is this constancy with regard to the life of Mary that must not be overlooked. Elizabeth declares with praise in acknowledgement of Mary’s faithful ‘Fiat’: "Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled (1:45). Luke portrays Mary as completely faithful to the word of God. A faithful person is preceived as being sinless. Elizabeth is even presented as being overwhelmed and much honored by her cousin’s visit on account of her position with God (1:43-44). The sound of Mary’s voice causes the child to leap in Elizabeth’s womb.

Luke surely perceives Mary as someone extraordinary among all human creatures. And he wants us to know this. Mary is portrayed as someone intimately united with the Holy Spirit, who overshadowed her at the Annunciation after sanctifying her soul in her mother’s womb, and closely associated with her divine Son in his salvific mission. It was her “Let it be done to me according to your word” (1:38) that brought the Saviour into the world, without which we would not have been saved according to God’s wise plan. Sinful Eve incurred our death. The sinless New Eve helped bring about our redemption. It’s hard to imagine that someone who was not the antithesis of Eve (sinful and disobedient to God) could help restore fallen mankind to friendship with God. How could the fall be fully reversed without woman’s complete participation, since woman initially contributed to the fall by rejecting the word of God and accepting the word of the serpent? Mary had to have been Eve’s sinless anti-type in order to have been associated with her Son, the New Adam, in the redemption of mankind (Gen 3:15; Lk 1:42).

You agree with me that “no person can find favor with God apart from the reception of his divine grace”, but still you contend that Mary was sinful although she was found to be in God’s favor by the angel Gabriel. Are you implying that someone is sinful while being in a state of grace? Your erroneous Protestant misconception of justification and sanctification is blinding you to the truth of Mary’s sinlessness. We are not a pile of dung covered with snow as Luther morbidly believed.

To be continued

 

[Good_Fella]

You are asserting something here that the Scriptures do not support. We do not find in any passage or verse in Scripture that mandates Mary to be sinless for Jesus to take on human flesh. What was necessary for Jesus to come into the world and to possess His deity was that the HS had to overshadow Mary. There had to be a divine involovement otherwise if Jesus was concieved by normal human means He would have only been a man and not the God-man.

The relationships that are in the next world are not the same as in this world. Jesus said as much when He was challenged by the Sadducees in Matthew 22:23-32 about the woman who was married 7 times and who will be her husband in heaven. He says in verse 30 that there is no marriage in heaven. This should tell us that the relationships we have here do not carry on in the same way to next.

Original sin is contracted from both parents, not only from the father. If Mary had been conceived in a state of original sin, Jesus would have been tainted with the effects of concupiscence. In other words, he would have struggled with lust, avarice, and all other human vices. But John tells us in his epistle that “sin was not in him.” And Paul tells the Hebrews that Jesus was “like us in all things but sin.” Jesus would have had a sinful nature through Mary notwithstanding his divinty. He took his flesh from her, not from the Holy Spirit ( cf. Jn 1:14; Gal 4:4). The Holy Spirit is the active-separate principle effecting the generation of the Son of Man, says Aquinas. Mary serves as the passive-joined principle, as any woman does in a natural capacity. Perhaps you’re a Monophysite who believes that Jesus was just an appearance of a man in the flesh while only divine, or you share the belief of E.G. White, the founder of the Seventh Day Adventists, that Jesus had a sinful physical human nature. (For this reason she rejects the Catholic dogma of the Immaculate Conception.) You must espouse one of these views if you refuse to believe that the Son of Man, who was a divine Person with the power to forgive sins, could have contracted the taint of original sin from his mother Mary.

Matthew 22: 23-32 strictly refers to the marital relationship. A man can have more than one wife, provided the relationship isn’t polygamous, as in the case of a widower remarrying. But a man can have only one natural mother. She cannot be replaced after she dies. Formally speaking our parents, the subject of the Fourth Commandment, will still be who they rightfully are to us after the resurrection.

So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them was taken up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.
Mark 16, 19

They said, “Men of Galilee, why are you standing there looking at the sky? This Jesus who was taken up from you into heaven will return in the same way as you have seen him going into heaven.”
Acts 1, 11

Christ’s resurrection was not a return to life in the temporal order, as were the resurrections of Jairus’ daughter and Lazarus, who were miraculously restored to life by Jesus. Our Lord’s resurrection differs significantly. He passed from the state of death to another life beyond physical time and space. At his resurrection Jesus’ body was filled with the power of the Holy Spirit. Our Lord shares the divine life in his glorious bodily state, having retained his human soul, mind, and will acquired by his incarnation through Mary his mother. Thus Paul can declare that Jesus is “the man of heaven” (Cf. 1 Cor 15: 35-50). To reject Mary’s Divine Maternity by the event of Christ’s resurrection is tantamount to denying that the risen Lord has retained his human soul, mind, and will in his heavenly glory. In other words, one may as well claim that Jesus is no longer human, for his humanity comes from his mother. If he has no mother, he cannot be human. But a human being does not necessarily have to have a spouse. I believe Paul remained celibate though he was a man.

Mary, who shares in our Lord’s divine glory, by her Assumption into heaven, is the Mother of our Lord and God for all eternity. For this reason especially Jesus resurrected his mother from the dead akin to his own resurrection, and preceding ours, within days of her death according to oral Tradition originating from Palestine. Bishop Juvenal, the Patriarch of Jerusalem, confirmed this tradition at the time of the Council of Chalcedon when the Emperor Marcion requested to be granted the remains of Mary for the purpose of veneration but had to be denied. Mary is now in heaven body and soul together with her divine Son, who is still the God-Man but forever now in his glory. And he alone is still Mary’s offspring - the Word made fesh.

PAX :tiphat:

 

[PJM]

Mark 10:18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.

Is Mary, god? No. she’s a mortal. So how can she be good or sinless when Jesus says ONLY GOD IS GOOD?

My dear friend in Christ,

I can tell that you have given the topic a great deal of thought. The only thing better is to give it a great deal of prayerful thought.

I seem to recall Jesus telling us: Isaiah 55: " 8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. "

Why do you suppose God said this? Could it be that God was giving us a “heads up” that we will not be able to either comprehend or understand everything that He thinks, every thing that He does. Common sense tell’s it that it must be so! The created cannot be more, or better, or even equal to the Creator.

A lot of Catholics do not understand why, since Mary can give birth to Jesus how could she have sin? And since Jesus is God, therefore Mary must be the mother of God.

Close, but not quite. Mary is human

The Holy Spirit is God and impreginates Mary miraculously, because it is His Will, and God’s Will, will be done. Amen?

Mary MUST BE PERFECT inorder to be the Mother of God, becaue God is perfect and will accept nothing less. If God accepted (name removed by moderator)erfection, then God could not, would not be God.

God decided to become human

Therefore inorder to accomplish His Divine Will, He choose a human mother, who had to be perfect, or God could not be perfect.“A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good friut.”

So God became human, with a human will and a human nature, just like us in every way “but sin.” Because God can neither sin, nor tollerate sin.

When God became “fleash” (human) did He stop being God? No he did not.

So now we have “One Person” with two distinct natures and two distict wills. Jesus is, was and continues to be both true God and true Man. Why? Because it was (is) God’s Will. And God can do ANYTHING that God Wills so long as it is "good."

The Bible clearly states, where God says ‘I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end’. This means that God does NOT have ANYBODY else before Him

Yea we agree completely on something! We Catholics do not believe that Mary "is before Him, or for that matter even Equal to Him. All Salvation is through the Merits of Jesus! Amen?

IN OTHER WORDS, He does NOT have parents. So, how can Mary be God’s mother?

So if He, (I assume you mean Jesus) does not have parents (plural) just how did He get here? If He didn’t have parents, how could Jesus be human. If Jesus wasn’t human, how could He die for our sins? If Jesus was not human then there is NO SALVATION! There is No Heaven and there is no Hell! Amen?

And if Jesus was “only God” what is the entire New Testament about. Sure God could have Redeemed us diferently, BUT GOD choose not too, as is His right. Amen?

Well, Mary did indeed give birth to Jesus. But Jesus is BOTH Man & God. The fleshly body of Jesus is Man, the Spirit that is in Him is God. Mary was used as a vessel to give birth to the FLESH that God used while He was on earth. There is no way that a mortal being can give birth to the immortal God.

recall please the Isaiah quote above. Human logic simply cannot comprehend the Love, Mercy and Will of God.

Do you not believe what the bible say’s? The KJV say’s the same thing.

Luke Chapter 1:"26 In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, 27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. 28 And he came to her and said, “Hail, full of grace, * the Lord is with you!” * 29 But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and considered in her mind what sort of greeting this might be. 30* And the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31* And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, 33* and he will reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there will be no end.” 34* And Mary said to the angel, “How shall this be, since I have no husband?” 35* And the angel said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born * will be called holy, the Son of God.

John 3:6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Insisting that God was born by Mary is B-L-A-S-P-H-E-M-Y.

My dear friend in Christ, your argument is not with us Catholics, no, it is with Your God. Please read your bible. Or do you think the bible is just an old novel?

Pray my friend, pray:shrug:

PJM m.c

 

[justasking4]

Sorry now I didn’t ask you to quote scripture for me, I asked you if you can fall from grace. What are you saying yes or no, Thats probally easier. Sometimes I can be so dense. So lets make it easy Yes or no. Besides that scripture you quoted is silly. Of course if you are in the Grace of God you are assured of salvation, but that is not what I asked you. Are you saying we are all going to heaven if we believe in God. Then again scrap that you tell me what you mean.

Those who believe that Christ died for their sins and rose again will go to heaven. Mere belief in God is not enough.

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by rinnie
Sorry now I didn’t ask you to quote scripture for me, I asked you if you can fall from grace. What are you saying yes or no, Thats probally easier. Sometimes I can be so dense. So lets make it easy Yes or no. Besides that scripture you quoted is silly. Of course if you are in the Grace of God you are assured of salvation, but that is not what I asked you. Are you saying we are all going to heaven if we believe in God. Then again scrap that you tell me what you mean.

Yes you can!

It’s your choice, not God’s…

God’s awesome He even lets us screw up!

God bless, PJM m.c.

 

[davidv]

Those who believe that Christ died for their sins and rose again will go to heaven. Mere belief in God is not enough.

Since Jesus is God, what is the difference?

 

[guanophore]

Those who believe that Christ died for their sins and rose again will go to heaven. Mere belief in God is not enough.

Don’t you think that the demons also believe that Christ died for the sins of mankind and rose from the dead? Do you think they will be in heaven?

What has your statement to do with Mary and intercession?

Mary believed that Jesus gave His life for her sins.

 

[justasking4]

Help me out here ja4

gal:18 But when you are led by the spirit you are not under the law. When self-indulgence is at word the results are obvious sexual vice, impurity and sensuality, the worship of false gods, sorcery antagonisms and rifalry, jealousy bad temper, and quarrels disagrements factions and malice drunkenness orgies and all such things. And about these I tell you now as I have told you in the past that people who behave in these ways will not inherit the kingdom of God.
What does that mean?

Are you referring to Galatians 5:19-21 which says:
19
14 Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness,
20
idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions,
21
occasions of envy, 15 drinking bouts, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
???

Behavior is a result of belief. If these Galatians truly believed in Christ and were committed to Him in living their lives in conformity to His they would not be manifesting these fruits in their lives. The fact that they are showing these kinds of fruit i.e. moral corruption is evidence they are not truly believing in Christ and not committed to Him and so will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

 

[justasking4]

]

Originally Posted by justasking4
Those who believe that Christ died for their sins and rose again will go to heaven. Mere belief in God is not enough.

davidv;
Since Jesus is God, what is the difference?

Many people claim to believe in a God but that does not mean it’s the God of Christianity i.e. the True God. Muslims claim to believe in God but it is not the God of the Lord Jesus Christ. There are certain and specific facts a person must believe if he-she is to enter heaven and that is to believe in the “name” and all that it entails if that person is to be saved. Acts 4:12 is a case in point:
“ There is no salvation through anyone else, nor is there any other name under heaven given to the human race by which we are to be saved."

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;4421512]It is best not to take names to yourself, ja4. It is unscriptural to call your self by names that the scripture does not. Therefore, since you cannot find a place in scripture that tells you you are stupid, then I would say you are out of order doing this.

Not so. Sometimes i think i have the same power that you do --able to read minds over the net that makes me think this.

guanophore
This question does not make any sense, and seems to be off topic. Mary, like all of us, can forgive people who sin against her. I pray that she will forgive you for biting and tearing at her Son’s Body.

guanophore
I think that is a decision that is up to God, don’t you think? All authority and power comes from him, and He can distribute it as He wills.

I think even you would agree that God does not need the church to let Him do something without telling it to the church. It certainly follows from all that is written about Mary and supported by the church that she could forgive sins if asked. For example
n the Divine Chaplet To The Blessed Mother Of Our Lord And Savior Jesus Christ
It says that Mary is Mediatrix of All Grace and Mediatrix of Salvation, Dispenser of Grace, Lady of Mercy, and Virgin Most Powerful. These are just some of the titles and powers attributed to her. No priest is ever referred to like this and if a priest who is not given such honor can forgive sins there is no reason to think Mary can’t.

 

[jmcrae]

Not so. Sometimes i think i have the same power that you do --able to read minds over the net that makes me think this.

I think even you would agree that God does not need the church to let Him do something without telling it to the church. It certainly follows from all that is written about Mary and supported by the church that she could forgive sins if asked. For example
n the Divine Chaplet To The Blessed Mother Of Our Lord And Savior Jesus Christ
It says that Mary is Mediatrix of All Grace and Mediatrix of Salvation, Dispenser of Grace, Lady of Mercy, and Virgin Most Powerful. These are just some of the titles and powers attributed to her. No priest is ever referred to like this and if a priest who is not given such honor can forgive sins there is no reason to think Mary can’t.

She is Mediatrix of Graces because she gave birth to Jesus (mediated Grace into the world in physical form, through her body). It does not mean that she can forgive sins.

The priest can forgive sins because he is in persona Christi - an entirely different role than Mary’s role.

 

[adstrinity]

Not so. Sometimes i think i have the same power that you do --able to read minds over the net that makes me think this.

I think even you would agree that God does not need the church to let Him do something without telling it to the church. It certainly follows from all that is written about Mary and supported by the church that she could forgive sins if asked. For example
n the Divine Chaplet To The Blessed Mother Of Our Lord And Savior Jesus Christ
It says that Mary is Mediatrix of All Grace and Mediatrix of Salvation, Dispenser of Grace, Lady of Mercy, and Virgin Most Powerful. These are just some of the titles and powers attributed to her. No priest is ever referred to like this and if a priest who is not given such honor can forgive sins there is no reason to think Mary can’t.

She gave birth to God, She didn’t recieve holy orders from Him.

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;4424659]
Originally Posted by justasking4
Those who believe that Christ died for their sins and rose again will go to heaven. Mere belief in God is not enough.
guanophore;
Don’t you think that the demons also believe that Christ died for the sins of mankind and rose from the dead?

No. They believe in God but it is not the kind of belief that leads to repentance and salvation but only to fear. See James 2:19

Do you think they will be in heaven?

No. Their destiny is hell forever.

What has your statement to do with Mary and intercession

?
A poster asked this excellent question even though it was not directly related to the topic. It needed to be answered.

Mary believed that Jesus gave His life for her sins.

True. This means she was not sinless nor kept from sinning.

 

[justasking4]

She is Mediatrix of Graces because she gave birth to Jesus (mediated Grace into the world in physical form, through her body). It does not mean that she can forgive sins.

The priest can forgive sins because he is in persona Christi - an entirely different role than Mary’s role.

Who is greater in authority? Mary or a priest?

 

[jmcrae]

Who is greater in authority? Mary or a priest?

Mary doesn’t have authority of any kind. She is Queen of Heaven in the sense that she is Jesus’ mother; not in the sense of being a female king.

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by RobHom View Post
Now, now…if you can’t take the heat…back away from the fire.

Errrrrr Rob2, you know where JA4 is headed. Now was that nice to say? I am “Just asking!”

Now you are sounding like a Catholic…a little bit anyway.

Boy, if you didn’t add that “a little bit anyway.”

It would be a reasonable start…

Want in? It seems they want to start a new religion of some kind! It does invove some kinky stuff with red jello and selling passes to sin or something like that. He said he had some guy named Pretzel, No wait, I think his street name is Tetzel, Yea, that’s it! Anyway, I think this guy Tetzel is bankrolling the entire operation, I could be wrong.

I do appreciate you, and I mean that very seriously! It is because of people like you that many Catholics who frequent sites like this end up learning more and more about their religion and their faith and belief grows in leaps and bounds… I own people like you a great THANK YOU!!!

Rob2. I join you! 100% NO JOKING! We love you JA4!
JA4 actually doesn’t realize what a blessing they are to this site. Without them, we would have normal civilized discussions about faith. Yea, there are others, sand and some others but I think JA4 is the best help we have in getting catholics to do research and learn about their religion. When I talked to the Vatican last week I asked them if they hired JA4 to help reinforce our faith. They like JA4 refused to answer! Hmmm.

Hmmmm, is it possible that we could make the same claim about non-Catholic “televangelists” …who appeal for money like these guys?

Rob2, Do you know most Protestants I know of wish those guys were Catholics? Even their own people are embarrassed with them! And what is it with all the “comb overs” They should lay their hands on their own heads and grow hair! They all use to sell used cars if what I read is correct, I could be wrong.

worldnetdaily.com/news/ar…TICLE_ID=43268 WOW!!!

time.com/time/magazine/ar…iid=digg_share WOW!!!

bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?id=…ws-RSSFeed0723 WOW!!!

evolvinginkansas.blogspot.com…s-on-oral.html WOW!!!

And this one is really SPECIAL!!!: tvacres.com/death_misc_oral.htm

At least when Tetzel was collecting money…everyone knew where it was going… It built a Church!!

I wonder what we could get for it? The baptist might buy it! Or maybe our new president elect, hmmm, what’s his name? Oshamea? might want a European getaway!

Want more examples you can use as role models???

My best to both of you and be sure to thank your gangs. This post is one of the best and i had a hard time not to laugh. i’m saving this this post to my hard drive…:extrahappy: :dancing:

 

[RobGentner]

Those who believe that Christ died for their sins and rose again will go to heaven. Mere belief in God is not enough.

Hi dear, How are you?

You almost got it right that time! You only forgot the “other” little thing… “Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:53-54

Don’t worry, I have your back if you screw uop again I will help again!

 

[justasking4]

Mary doesn’t have authority of any kind. She is Queen of Heaven in the sense that she is Jesus’ mother; not in the sense of being a female king.

If she is a queen in heaven as you say why would she not have at least the power to forgive sins just as a human fallen priest can?

Is not grace required to forgive sins? Is she not the medatrix of all grace?