P
- Status
P
Peter_J
Guest
Ms. J and Ms. R.,
Well, Muslims believe that God exists, obviously. And some of the other things they say about him (e.g. “the God of Abraham”) are right as well.
I would be reluctant to automatically assume that all Muslims don’t have “faith in God”, based on the wrong things they say about him.
But I would be even more reluctant to assume that Muslims do have “faith in God” based on the right things they say about him.
Well, Muslims believe that God exists, obviously. And some of the other things they say about him (e.g. “the God of Abraham”) are right as well.
I would be reluctant to automatically assume that all Muslims don’t have “faith in God”, based on the wrong things they say about him.
But I would be even more reluctant to assume that Muslims do have “faith in God” based on the right things they say about him.
P
Peter_J
Guest
JA,JA, since you’re big on 20th century Catholic publications, here’s a couple more you might like: the Catholic Encyclopedia (1913) and the New Catholic Dictionary (1910). (Notice the latter even has the word “new” in it.)
As you’ve rightly guessed, I was being a little facetious in that post: I don’t assume that you’ll like other 20th century Catholic publications, just because you like the NAB translation of the bible.
F
FollowTheWay
Guest
guanophore - The bible tells us our righteousness is filthy rags, if we were perfect we would never need to be saved and because of that the Lords grace is strong.
also woman is used 341 in the bible in the old testament it was translated as several different things like woman, wife, childbearer, adultress, and harlot(802). This is because women were looked down upon. In the new testament the word woman is used in the same context from Mary to other women he talked too(1135). Jesus also tells some of his followers when his mother and brothers show up at the door he says:
He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. (Mat 12:48-49)
Where does it say what is revealed about Mary??
As for sinful nature Galatians 5:17 says:
“For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want.”
sinful nature is in past, present, and future tense.
also woman is used 341 in the bible in the old testament it was translated as several different things like woman, wife, childbearer, adultress, and harlot(802). This is because women were looked down upon. In the new testament the word woman is used in the same context from Mary to other women he talked too(1135). Jesus also tells some of his followers when his mother and brothers show up at the door he says:
He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. (Mat 12:48-49)
Where does it say what is revealed about Mary??
As for sinful nature Galatians 5:17 says:
“For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want.”
sinful nature is in past, present, and future tense.
G
Good_Fella
Guest
You’re welcome, Henning.Hi Good Fella. Thanks for your reply.
Have a few more questions, if I may, about Mary’s sinlessness.
So Mary was spiritually crucified unto a death, and was therefore baptized into Christ (Rom 6:3,8)?
what ‘self’ was this that died, and therefore what ‘self’ remained ?
A little off topic but both Mary and Jesus are images of God (2Cor 4:4)?
This doctrine of Mary’s sinlessness, especially when reading Paul, are yet difficult for me. I’ll probably have more questions. H
First of all, the teachings of Paul do not apply to Mary as they do to us, for we have been conceived in a state of original sin. To say that Mary was baptized into Christ, so to speak, should mean that she received the fullness of God’s grace at the instant she was conceived by the redemptive merits of Christ’s Passion and Death. One aspect of original sin is the absence of God’s sanctifying grace in the human soul. We ourselves retrieve this grace forfeited by Adam when we receive the sacrament of Baptism. Mary did not actually have to discard an “old self” and put on a “new self”, but nonetheless, being implicated in the universal transgression of Adam as a human being, it had to take God’s intervention to redeem her in the manner he did. Potentially Mary could have inherited the stain of original sin. Instead God fashioned her as a new creation in Christ by sparing her the indignity of the old creation in Adam. God willed to preserve her free from the taint of original sin by virtue of her Divine Maternity. The Word made flesh should not dwell in a body corrupted by sin ( cf. Wis 1:4). Luke typifies Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant in his Infancy Narrative by referring to the Book of Samuel. The ark of the Old Covenant, which contained the Word of God, was fashioned in a way to render it pure and undefiled. Mary was destined from all eternity to conceive and bear the Word made flesh, so it was fitting that she be fashioned pure and undefiled at the instant of her conception.
The self that died in Mary was her natural and instinctive maternal self. Like any mother, Mary must have anxiously struggled with the thought of having to offer up her Son as a pleasing sacrifice to God. It wasn’t at all that easy for her to accept God’s will because of her motherly love for her offspring. Yet she knew she must renounce any personal desires for the benefit of mankind. The self that victoriously took charge was her position with God as his humble and faithful handmaid (cf. Lk 1:38). The best we can do is draw an analogy, however imprecise, between Mary’s pilgrimage of faith and ours as baptized Christians.
Adam and Eve were created sinless in God’s perfect image (cf. Gen 1:26-27). “God saw all that he had made, and it was very good” (Gen 1:31). In their humanity, Jesus and Mary perfectly conformed to the divine image by constantly obeying the will of the Father. This is what Jesus means in his exhortation: " Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect (Mt 5:48). Once we become unfaithful to God by choosing what we personally prefer and relying on our own resources, we forfeit God’s grace and fall from the state of perfection. On our own apart from God’s grace we can never hope to attain what is truly good for us and right according to God’s wisdom and omniscience. Like Eve, Mary was created in God’s image and in a state of divine perfection, the state of holiness and justice before God, although not ontologically perfect as God is perfect in essence. But unlike Eve, Mary never fell from God’s grace and preserved her spiritual perfection throughout her entire life by hearing the word of God and keeping it in spite of any natural inclinations she may have had to face (i.e. the maternal instinct) contrary to the will of God. For us Mary is a model Christian who willingly exercised self-denial and spiritually suffered with and for Christ as she stood at the foot of the cross in faith by the grace of God.
“If any man will come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.”
Luke 9, 23
“And a sword shall pierce your own soul, too, so that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed.”
Luke 2, 35
“In accordance with this design, Mary the Virgin is found obedient, saying, ‘Behold the handmaid of the Lord. Be it unto me according to your word.’ But Eve was disobedient; for she did not obey when as yet she was a virgin…And thus also it was that the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith.”
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3:22 [A.D. 180]
PAX :tanning:
R
rinnie
Guest
Spot on Peter J. But this is what the fact is. In the Muslim Religion they claim that they believe in the God of Abraham, Fact. The God of Abraham in the OT is the God we believe in, Fact. See Peter J we cannnot change that. Because its the truth. Now that subject should be laid to rest.
Next this is a Catholic Site and anyone that asks a Catholic a question is going to get scripture from a Catholic Bible. OR should again fact. If you go by the Catholic Faith you should go by the Catholic Bible, Fact
Now according to MY VERSION of the Catholic Bible It say Mary is full of grace. You cannot fight that. I like the older version less lost in translation . again fact.
Now getting to the point again of this thread the question was asked how can we PROVE the Blessed Mother was sinless.
We said because she was FULL OF GRACE. We answered the question. Fact Full Of Grace cannot mean full of sin.
full means filled, complete, again that is a fact.
Grace means Love and favor of God toward man. Now that is not even Christian theology that is from the dictionary.
Now to be full of Love and favor of God could no way mean sin. Its impossible.
So the fact is the Catholic Bible says Mary was full of grace which means could not have sin.
Fact, Point Proven, There is no more to say. We were asked where it said that in the bible, get a older version of the Catholic Bible it will be there fact. exact words FULL OF GRACE.
That fact is thats the reason that Roman Catholic’s believe that Mary has no sin. Will everyone believe it, no. But we do. Thats is all that matters. We stated our FACT and there is no more to say.
Now I do no believe that we were asked anyones opinion if we were right or not. We have the RCC for that. We just proved what we believe and why.
So Peter J have a wonderful day, And may God fill us all with his grace. This post was answered and the truth was revealed.
P
Peter_J
Guest
So as not to turn into a broken record, let me just say that I stand by what I said in #957.
Thank you and amen!
R
RobGentner
Guest
**
Errrrr Peter J, You were answering yourself? Well actually, talking to yourself. Hey, take a break Justasking4 isn’t going anywhere! **
R
RobGentner
Guest
**Hey Adstrinity,
Boy ask a stupid question Buddy.
Look at Post #959 FollowTheWrongWay actually answered that question. 
He claims 1135 times (I doubt it!) Jesus didn’t know that many women! I would "guess 50 to 100. But I’ll just take FollowTheWrongWay’s word on that one. I have neither the time or desire to pick at nits Actually I think Jesus probably called Mary “Mom”, Mother or whatever. The author of the bible didn’t want Jesus to appear as a mommy’s boy so he wrote the word “woman”. It is actually believed that Jesus spoke a form of Aramaic which is no longer spoken. The modern aramaic word for mother is something like “aniguhijer”.Now next time Justasking asks you a stupid question refer them back to the OP The answer if which is: YES
and YES!**
F
FollowTheWay
Guest
actually 1135 is the number to find the translation from greek to english and the other was for hebrew
A
adstrinity
Guest
How many times did Jesus address a woman as “Woman”? The fact He deflected the statement about His mother and brothers adds to Mary as The Mother of All the Living theory.
F
FollowTheWay
Guest
Luke 11:27-28. Jesus shows not to put any faith in his mother, but instead on the Lord.
When you look into the greek you see that the Lord see’s Mary as any other woman, accept for of course the fact that it was his earthly mother
When you look into the greek you see that the Lord see’s Mary as any other woman, accept for of course the fact that it was his earthly mother
A
adstrinity
Guest
One has to go out of one’s way to read Luke 11 that way…and one has a misconstrewed version of Christian beliefs to think Christians have faith in Mary. Christians love Her, show devotion to Her, pray to Her, and listen to Her; we do not put our faith in Her. That being said, one cannot love Her enough if one’s life has Jesus as top priority.
F
FollowTheWay
Guest
Why pray to her when Jesus said that he is the mediator, she cannot intercede if she is not omnipotent or divine. No human has the power to handle our prayer let alone our problems.
Devotion and prayer, and listening to her (especially since she is dead) would be putting your faith in her.
G
Good_Fella
Guest
In Luke 11: 27- 28, Jesus encourages us to follow his mother Mary’s example of true faith for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He affirms that his mother is “most blessed among women” for having been granted the singular privilege of conceiving and bearing him (1:42), but he regards her obedience to the word of God (1:38, 45) of more critical importance than merely her biological role in the incarnation. Jesus is not rebuking his mother at all. On the contrary, he is praising Mary for her faith and trust in God. He is not implying that his mother was unfaithful or sinful in the least. Mary is rather blessed (more blessed) for being faithful and obedient to the word of God. Her true blessedness lies in her faith. And we also must possess the quality of faith Mary had in order to be truly blessed.
In v28 the Greek word for “rather” is ‘menounge’. The word actually means “Yes, but in addition to” or “Further”. Thus Jesus is saying that Mary is surely blessed for having been chosen to be his mother, but she is more blessed for having heard the word of God and keeping it as any true disciple of his would be. A true disciple of Christ should emulate Mary’s perfect faith in God. It’s absurd for many Protestants to think that Jesus is saying something like “If only my mother would hear the word of God and keep it notwithstanding her Divine Maternity.” Such a rebuke is inconsistent with Luke’s portrayal of Mary in other passages (1: 28, 38, 45, 46-49).
“Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.”
Luke 1, 42
“Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair; there is no flaw in Thee and no stain in thy Mother.”
Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 [A.D. 370]
PAX
J
janw
Guest
I DO have faith that if I pray to her, she will help by taking my prayers to her son. I have only been praying the rosary a couple of years now, but I have never received answers to my prayers like I have since I started praying the rosary.
I can tell you and the other protestant guys on this thread will never even give it a chance. Your just here for the wrong reasons.
Your loss.
R
Realcatholicgk
Guest
Why pray to her when Jesus said that he is the mediator, she cannot intercede if she is not omnipotent or divine. No human has the power to handle our prayer let alone our problems.
Why not pray to Mary even though Jesus is the mediator?
Jesus’ mediation was to die on the cross so that all men could be saved. Eternal life is what He mediated. Where does the words intercession and mediation mean the same thing to you? Do you have a dictionary. It looks kind of like a Bible, so don’t get them confused. The bible normally has a cross on it. Even the phony ones say “Holy Bible” on them. Check out the definition of mediator and then intercede, See if they mean the same thing. (Oh, the answer is No!) Now go to your bible, whichever of the 100 or more false ones you may have. Try not to use the KJV (up to the 1800 they did several “rewrites” but then in mid 1800s they made, are you ready for this one! 3,600 "corrections"Sorry that would be another thread.
Where in your bible does it forbid praying to Mary? How do you personally know what can or can’t happen through God’s power. How can you limit His authority? How did you decide that only omnipotent or divine people are the only ones that can intercede? If they are omniootent or divine why is “intercession” needed?
[SIGN]
There is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men"I Tim. 2:5-6.
See? His sacrifice was His mediation for our souls. Not only is He true man, He is also true God. The prophet Isaiah, looking forward to His birth 800 years before it happened said:!
“To us a child is born, to us a son is given . . . and he will be called Mighty God”
Isa. 9:6
Born of the Blessed Virgin Mary who was full of grace. Praise Jesus! Truly being God He has equal dignity with the father and His payment for man’s sin had infinite value. Truly being Man, He had perfect sympathy with man and only he could pay for man’s sins.
“God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life” John 3:16.
**To believe in Him is to “follow” His commandments!
Honor you father and Mother. Jesus gave His mother to the church. as the following scripture shows: **
"Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. John 19: 25-27
“Unless you eat my Body and Drink my blood you shall not have eternal life”
**That my friend is the Euchurist offered by the Catholic Church through apostolic succession **
[/SIGN]
Devotion and prayer, and listening to her (especially since she is dead) would be putting your faith in her.
**
Wouldn’t that be putting our faith in Jesus? That He spoke the truth all the times He said we would have eternal life?
So, we can have it, but Jesus denied it to His sinless Mother? OK, Do you drink?If not, I recommend that if you “believe in the bible” you read it!
**
Are you positive you will live with Jesus in heaven forever? Suppose you were in an accident. At the gate of heaven you are asked: “Why should you be admitted?” What would you say?
Because I believed in a book?
Or
Because I followed Jesus and I asked His mother if she would pray for me at the hour of my death!
If you pick number one, you better be glad I am not the gate keeper I would tell you where to go! :bigyikes: That is from a sinner who also will have to be judged for his shortcomings. One sin I won’t have is denying Jesus or His Father Authority to do whatever they want/ esus is the potter I am the clay! Nor would I deny Jesus’ Mother who He gave us. If I did what could I say? “am I your Mother’s keeper”?
Blessed Mother Mary please ask your Divine son to forgive us sinners.And remember to pray for all of us at the hour of our death so that we can obtain eternal life We ask these things through your Son who obtained salvation for us, through His cross and resurrection. Amen****
God Bless!
G
guanophore
Guest
It seems that you are missing a lot, Follow. Jesus put complete and entire faith in his mother. He chose to enter her womb, and take His human form from her body. He placed HImself, the God of the universe, naked and helpless in her loving arms. She fed Him, clothed Him, changed His diapers and wiped his scrapes and tears. I boggles the mind how anyone could say “Jesus shows not to put any faith in His mother”.
Luke 2:51
51 And he went down with them and came to Nazareth, and was obedient to them; and his mother kept all these things in her heart.
He trusted her enough to remain under her care, and do obey His parents, even though He had intellectually already reached the point to challenge the Teachers.
If Mary is good enough for Jesus, she is good enough for me.
G
guanophore
Guest
G
guanophore
Guest
Such a statement reveals a gross paucity of understanding about God’s plan for humans. Have you never wondered why the Word of God tells us to intercede, if it is beyond us?
If people needed to be omnipotent or divine to intercede, you would be right, we would not be able to do so. Fortunately, you are wrong.
Well, I think it has nothing to do with her physical state, but I agree, listening to her and being devoted is definitely an act of faith.
- Status