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dostoyevskyfan
Guest
…and therefore in heaven (…or the other two places)?
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Anthony_V
Guest
Music in its purest form is the expression of the individual. In Heaven, we will have perfect expression. If it means that we are all perfect musicians, then so be it!
Either way, Glory to God will be “sung” one way or another.
Either way, Glory to God will be “sung” one way or another.
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paduard
Guest
*Either way, Glory to God will be “sung” one way or another. *
I agree - one way or another!
I agree - one way or another!
B
bethanysamuel
Guest
I have had a few experiences of hearing angels singing when there was no radio, no c.d., no Church, no superstition, no drunkeness, no sleepy/hallucinatory state, no drugs, no psychosis.
In other words I have heard angels singing and I know it was real. It was a supernatural beautiful mind-blowing experience.
Thank You God!
In other words I have heard angels singing and I know it was real. It was a supernatural beautiful mind-blowing experience.
Thank You God!
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dostoyevskyfan
Guest
I wasn’t trying to be difficult. I just really wanted to know. How can music not be time dependent?
po18guy
Well-known member
You are not! Time is simply how we on earth measure music. Notes on a scale, and chords are earthly definitions. In the next world, it may be more than sound, it may be sensation, or a state of being. It may be extra- or supra-metaphysical in nature. In God’s realm, He defines what is and how it is, as difficult as that is to grasp.
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FurtherSuntime
Guest
.
When I refer to Music or Art, I will be speaking of the finest. Not that theres anything wrong with
attempts or the like (rock-abstract) but a confusion could arise out of varied purpose in different forms of art.
The presentation of a great work of art is not much different than the “idea” in a great piece of music. They both unfold a story. One is sound, the other is visual.
We need to understand that an arranged sound or piece of music is a transmission of information in sound. Yes, another language. In nature, music is heard among birds in the mating season. Natural music communicating sound for the purpose of relaying an… idea.
So then, what may I ask is the reason we enjoy a beautiful piece of music…? How do we relate with the arrangement of sound and feel a “shift” in our relative consciousness?
Is it harmony…no it can’t be simply the use of harmony … Much music with harmony simply does not work out…No effect. Counterpoint…key…well no, its got to be something else doesn’t it?
I will tell you exactly what it is and then tomorrow if this gets looked at , we can explore It could be very logical for a type of music to exist in the realities of infinity.
Great music all has one common element. There is a consolation in order in the consideration of…disorder. In a sense a timeless emenation or aura is achieved in the satisfaction of… the perfect state.
This is a very good question .
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dostoyevskyfan
Guest
Interesting, so the “finest” music mirrors a likeness or sensation of the beatific vision? Perhaps the “essence” of music lives on, is that what you are saying? This would be very upsetting to me because I appreciate greatly the technical aspects of music and not just the emotional. I dabble in classical guitar.
While music is material in the sense that sound waves and frequencies are flying through the air,…it is mostly a*** mental ***experience. You can hear great music in your head even without the physical aspects present.
Will be interesting to see if intervals can be established in infinity that is to say if infinity can somehow be divided so that hearing Beethoven’s 9th is possible beyond the grave.
I can’t even imagine existence without music. how horrible!
While music is material in the sense that sound waves and frequencies are flying through the air,…it is mostly a*** mental ***experience. You can hear great music in your head even without the physical aspects present.
Will be interesting to see if intervals can be established in infinity that is to say if infinity can somehow be divided so that hearing Beethoven’s 9th is possible beyond the grave.
I can’t even imagine existence without music. how horrible!
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djeter
Guest
http://payingattentiontothesky.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/mozart1.jpg?w=271&h=283
And then there is Karl Barth writing on Mozart…
Barth was a Swiss Reformed theologian whom critics hold to be among the most important Christian thinkers of the 20th century; Pope Pius XII described him as the most important theologian since Thomas Aquinas.
dj
And then there is Karl Barth writing on Mozart…
Barth was a Swiss Reformed theologian whom critics hold to be among the most important Christian thinkers of the 20th century; Pope Pius XII described him as the most important theologian since Thomas Aquinas.
dj
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TimothyH
Guest
I think this hits the nail on the head.
Time is a measure of change. Things don’t change outside of time or perhaps more correctly, God and Heaven do not change so therefor they are outside of time.
Is music even possible without time? Can we hear changing notes or count off a rythm.
I vote no music in Heaven. No doubt we will have something better.
-Tim-
po18guy
Well-known member
First, the Beatific vision will be so overwhelming that all which has gone before will fade to nothingness. Earthly music is intended to satisfy an earthly body and spirit. However, once perfected, the spirit will not be limited as it is in this life. Think of the most rapturous state that one can experience - then transpose that upon the core of your being as the new normal. Voice, vision, thought - all insignificant, if not impossible. We’re talking transcendence here.
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4Horsemen
Guest
Timelessness in heaven is like being somewhere full of wonder and not having your watch on so you never know the time, or even the idea of time itself. Your joy will be full; your cup overflowing; you will hear and participate in the music of angels.
I think it was St. Teresa of Avila or some great, mystical writer who enjoined the nuns in her convent to sing in the here and now, so that their voices will be ready to sing the Te Deum in the heavenly kingdom.
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FurtherSuntime
Guest
( I will address entry query offering opinion , the technical aspects of music are important, it is a huge subject which will be included…there are a few other comments which need address for purpose’s of merit in our wonder. )
Lets begin with our understanding of God. We understand that God is Love. Not just Love but
IS Love. The IS would be an existence or a reality. An eternal infinity of existence composed of Love.
It is not unreasonable in quest I don’t think to draw the curtain so to say on the subject of Love in of itself. We do it all the time in order to get close or know that of which we love. God.
Is this Divine Love an eternal reality? Yes. Is Divine Love an eternal process?
How can we deny God an understanding or consideration in an eternal infinite process.
We cannot.
We cannot because man has a Soul. We have been engaged in considerations which employ an eternal infinite process for some time. Saints and other remarkable spiritual experience through prayer and Love experience have presented man with much insight into the…IS, where God IS Love. The Love…of God.
We must dis-regard all , if we are to deny the property of “infinite eternal experience” a process to enlightenment. and thus the nature of Divinity Itself
Therefore if above is fair and reasonable & and if so would be worthy to be certain, we can
feel a short step in a possible…Eternal God, composed of pure Love,in a posture of infinite experience. An Eternal always was, always loving God…
IS… would be our jewel in thought… (God)
Now, regarding other commentary re music is a mental experience.
When a gathering of people explode at the outcome of a baseball final series , the experience is that of accomplishment in what ? The spirit of man. The constructive is that of progress in effort. The effect is a jubilant freedom from, frustration in potential failure.
When a gathering of people explode in the final whispering note of a performance of music in exquisite beauty, the experience is not in the spirit of man as above, no…it is in the realization
of the reality of, their Soul. The Soul romanced into participation without choice. The exposure of a suggestion… presenting. in musical wholeness, a perfect state … Love.
( there are other implications regarding wholeness )
The human will, in its time natured way in always increasing or decreasing measure of value within the Soul is given rest. The Wills ultimate goal in sanctification is once for all in view, as the Head of The Soul rests on its own contemplation of realization.
Eyes seen with joyous un-stoppable water at the un-conscious realization of the individual
reality of an Eternal Soul lying within the un-worthy breast. As in the warmest possible embrace, a timeless experience in the infinite reality within. The Soul. The IS, in our God , through The Holy Spirit, shares in The Divine Infinite & Eternal Process …through experience. The IS . A glance in felt timelessness. It is real.
The complexities in technical re music are very interesting. I believe you are referring to the physical requirements in melody ect ect. Through note combination and so on.
Each note…ABCDEFG and all sharps or flats, everyone of them hold a remark. To explain:
They are not just frequencies audible and determined by comparison or pitch. They each have a character in disposition. An individual with absolute pitch as myself, discerns note by character …not pitch . Each note has a personality or defined remark. This is one of the reasons a masterpiece if played in a different key, can loose value. Accent notes and so on would loose exact emphasis due to character in note …not pitch or other.
I’m not sure how this exact detail would be left out or segregated by yourself as…they are necessary parts of the whole . These certainty’s add a defined clarity to our wonder in the participation of…“All” which would be expected in heavenly bliss. All pure reason, all innocence in Eternity.The absense of relative human perception. Completeness. All that is real the… IS in God.
Anyway this above is simply a neccesary introduction given post developement put together after a busy but absolutely gorgeous day Critisism is welcome and will continue if interest is apparent. Ive noticed certain music to be rather effective in above. and we can explore adding more insight as well enhancement
.
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dostoyevskyfan
Guest
This is one of the most fascinating things I have ever read. Can you please elaborate on this?
Is trying to explain what it is like to have perfect pitch to someone like me(without) like trying to explain sight to a blind man?
What exactly do you mean by “character”? Can you use some more descriptive language?
What is it like having perfect pitch?
What common sounds…cars honking, sirens, elevators, etc do you find yourself identifying the pitch of the note produced?
Finally, what is your musical background, are you a musician?
Thank you so much.
F
FurtherSuntime
Guest
I am a Classical Pianist with a Performance Designation out of a Formal University.Have played and preformed quite a bit. Ive had many students through the years and find a full joy in the rewarding area of cultivating talent.
Chopin would primarily be responsible for a great amount of effort on my behalf and enjoy mostly all music. Ok thats that…
I can explain this question perfectly. And its another great question which has quite a bit to do with all that is being discussed.
They call it either perfect pitch or…absolute pitch. There are varying degrees of ability in this regard. I believe that I am in the highest in this ability…continuing
I will start with pianoforte. If a key is hit, any key with my back to piano or even for that matter I could be 100 or 200 ft away…I can discern exactly what that note is.
Now, my ability goes another step. If for example an individual note is out of tune, we know that the pitch or tightness of the string requires adjustment. Just like tuning your guitar with the upper
6 pegs. With tightening the string vibrates creating the intended pitch.
If the note C…for example is out of tune by up to a full semi tone (that would be Csharp correct?)
I can still tell you indifferent of pitch…without visible knowledge that the note struck is C and it is
out of tune . It is due to character in specific note…not pitch. They should call it absolute character.
The best way to explain would be by relaying what it is that allows me to do this.
The note F…would be very crisp subtle harshness in delivery the sound wastes no time in full comprehension , well defined, abrupt, without being exactly harsh .It has nothing to do with the harp in piano, it is a personality. Lets try another…G# G sharp is more feminine, soft like a late September sun. warm , compatible. D would be without decisiveness yet a remark in open ease. Ive never attached words as to what it is but could probably do much better if I made a formal list or something.
If I want to compose something , I can hit a note allow it to sustain and just listen. I can hear a story or experience in the note itself. Give it a go…and be pateint without anything in your minds expectations.
You may be able and not be aware. . I never had to work at it and simply knew since a kid.As well if I’m around a clarinet or violin for a month or so preparing something …I can pick up ability on the other instruments. Theres a difference though. A clarinet is built in the key of Bflat. So when they play a note …theres adjustments in names…I think you know what I’m saying.
I am very curious to see your feedback on this. Music is so much a gift to man. Ive been told about a healing process which is being researched with respects to good music promoting a spiritual comfort in sickness. Ultimately we are certainly designed to be cheerful .
D
dostoyevskyfan
Guest
This is all very fascinating. I will send you a private message so as to not derail the thread. I have some more questions.
J
John_Russell_Jr
Guest
Hi dear friends ,
I’m a bit under the weather and want to just say there is no tme in our world right now, for many reasons time cannot exist at all. Time is an illusion we have and measure by change. Change is an illusion as all chage has already occured in " now " where all is present at once , but we are experiencing the change which has already occured gradually unfold for obvious reasons – we cannot experience all our eternities at once ,only God can do this , we would be here , purgatory, limbo then heaven – just for starters. Time is opposed to the ifiniite perfetion of God in 2 notable ways for one thing : God cannot exist in time, God only exists in eternity , and God most assuredly exists in our world and not just outside it. Also , the infinite perfection of God demands that He do all His creativity " now " and not over the course of time. Gods infinite perfection demands He does and all is as infinitely perfect as possible. Scientists talk of space time continuum but it’s rubbish I’m afraid. There is no time. We can measure change in purgatory by the way , but hell , limbo and heaven have change but we cannot measure it – that is the difference. By the way , in " now " where all is present at once ,we are interconnected with infinite other worlds we will visit in eternities in my opinion , and in " now " therefore , exists the most infinitely perfect world that can possibly be , with all infinitely perfect worlds together , in my opinion. Think I’ve got a flu so may not be back for a while , just wanted to tell you this.
God bless and Love you all:thumbsup:
John
I’m a bit under the weather and want to just say there is no tme in our world right now, for many reasons time cannot exist at all. Time is an illusion we have and measure by change. Change is an illusion as all chage has already occured in " now " where all is present at once , but we are experiencing the change which has already occured gradually unfold for obvious reasons – we cannot experience all our eternities at once ,only God can do this , we would be here , purgatory, limbo then heaven – just for starters. Time is opposed to the ifiniite perfetion of God in 2 notable ways for one thing : God cannot exist in time, God only exists in eternity , and God most assuredly exists in our world and not just outside it. Also , the infinite perfection of God demands that He do all His creativity " now " and not over the course of time. Gods infinite perfection demands He does and all is as infinitely perfect as possible. Scientists talk of space time continuum but it’s rubbish I’m afraid. There is no time. We can measure change in purgatory by the way , but hell , limbo and heaven have change but we cannot measure it – that is the difference. By the way , in " now " where all is present at once ,we are interconnected with infinite other worlds we will visit in eternities in my opinion , and in " now " therefore , exists the most infinitely perfect world that can possibly be , with all infinitely perfect worlds together , in my opinion. Think I’ve got a flu so may not be back for a while , just wanted to tell you this.
God bless and Love you all:thumbsup:
John
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4Horsemen
Guest
Just wondering , , , how can we measure time in purgatory but not heaven, hell, and. . .Hi dear friends ,
I’m a bit under the weather and want to just say there is no tme in our world right now, for many reasons time cannot exist at all. Time is an illusion we have and measure by change. Change is an illusion as all chage has already occured in " now " where all is present at once , but we are experiencing the change which has already occured gradually unfold for obvious reasons – we cannot experience all our eternities at once ,only God can do this , we would be here , purgatory, limbo then heaven – just for starters. Time is opposed to the ifiniite perfetion of God in 2 notable ways for one thing : God cannot exist in time, God only exists in eternity , and God most assuredly exists in our world and not just outside it. Also , the infinite perfection of God demands that He do all His creativity " now " and not over the course of time. Gods infinite perfection demands He does and all is as infinitely perfect as possible. Scientists talk of space time continuum but it’s rubbish I’m afraid. There is no time. **We can measure change in purgatory by the way , but hell , limbo and heaven have change but we cannot measure it – **that is the difference. By the way , in " now " where all is present at once ,we are interconnected with infinite other worlds we will visit in eternities in my opinion , and in " now " therefore , exists the most infinitely perfect world that can possibly be , with all infinitely perfect worlds together , in my opinion. Think I’ve got a flu so may not be back for a while , just wanted to tell you this.
God bless and Love you all:thumbsup:
John
um. . . limbo???
Btw, hope your time having the flu is short, as time goes here on earth.
Blessings!
P
pnewton
Guest
I think yes, at least that is my experiences with some organists.
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